(USA) Backstory: I don’t know my mom (50sf) well. She was never in my life as a kid. She’s diagnosed bipolar disorder, has multiple suicide attempts under her belt, she’s a horrific gambling addict and very manipulative. Her relationship with my grandparents is not normal- they (80s) have always taken care of her because she cannot hold down a job or grow. She’s basically mentally 15. She works minimum wage, part time. Has no people skills. Chronic liar. Hates responsibility. Her paychecks though small are entirely fun money. Her parents pay all of her bills, purchased her car, and bought her house, so it’s not like she’s living in squalor.
Her house was always in a trust because she couldn’t be trusted to not put it up as collateral. Well, sometime in the past couple years, her dad put her on the deed. I found this out last week when I found a signed document authorizing a line of credit taken against her house in her name to the tune of $30,000 from a loan shark-esque company. I sat her down and made her pull her credit report to show me what all else she was hiding. It was 150+ pages. At least an additional $30,000 in credit card debt. I have no idea how she’s even able to obtain credit cards with all the debt she’s in.
Historically, her parents have paid off her problems. This isn’t the first time she’s done this, but it’s definitely the worst, and they can’t afford to bail her out anymore. They’re old, in poor health, and unable to deal with the stress of this any longer. She genuinely isn’t capable of seeing how bad this is, and she doesn’t think she’s done anything wrong and can’t understand why we’re so livid.
They’ve asked me to do what I can to deal with it. They have given me all the love and care I’ve needed my whole life, so although i don’t really care for my mom or, truthfully, what comes of her, my grandparents do not deserve this pain and stress and i would like to help them how I can.
Can anyone here give me any advice at all- what are the options? How does filing for bankruptcy work, would that help? What about her house? This is way above reddit’s paygrade but I need a direction to start in. TIA.
edit: there seems so be a lot of confusion and issues I want to touch. First off, I’m not bailing her out. I don’t know her!! And I’m not giving her a penny. I’m putting myself in the managerial position of figuring out her finances and where best to move forward on that- thanks to the people who mentioned elder lawyer and bankruptcy.
Second, way too many of you are under the assumption i can just cut my mom off and walk away. That is so weird. I take care of my grandparents and when they die i dont want to sew my mom on the street regardless of her absence in my life. Some of y’all do not have souls.
My mom is in severe debt about to lose everything and i have no idea what to do.
byu/LimitedNicotine inpersonalfinance
Posted by LimitedNicotine
23 Comments
Tell your grandparents you did your best but cannot help her. She needs a team of therapists, psychiatrists, interventionists and perhaps a long stint in rehab. That is IF she is willing to come to terms with reality, admit all her problems, and genuinely seek out help.
At it’s core this is not a financial problem, it’s behavioral. You cannot force her to make sound financial decisions or take responsibility for her actions. Only she can.
She can’t be responsible for herself anymore. Sell her house and car. Put her in a home.
If you can’t afford to bail her out, and she doesn’t see what’s wrong, there’s going to be very little you can do now.
You can definitely talk with a bankruptcy attorney to see if you want to pursue that route, but there’s a high likelihood she’ll end up right back here again and it won’t make sense long term.
It would also be helpful to talk with a lawyer about estate planning/setting up a trust (that she does not get access to). For instance, if you want to do what you can to keep a roof over her head, there may be an option where your grandparents sell the house, pay off the line of credit there, and buy a one-bed/studio apartment via a trust that you manage that she has no ownership rights to, and set her up to live there with all expenses (HOA, utilities, insurance, etc.) paid via the trust.
If there will not be enough funds to support that, then you could get her set up with an apartment rental and just leave it to her to manage. Realistically, she will be on the streets eventually, but if you get her set up with bankrupcty and a place to live, it may buy you enough time that your grandparents won’t be around to see it. Sorry if that comes off kinda brutal, couldn’t figure out the best way to phrase it.
If she doesn’t think it’s a big deal, then it’s not a big deal. You’re not her parent, it’s time for her to figure it out. If you rescue her now, you’ll be doing it for the rest of your life.
UNLESS. – Somehow you’re able to get guardianship over her. Prove in court that’s she’s mentally incapable of taking care of herself. I’m not aware of the process of that, but that would stop her from going back into debt if you fix this one.
You don’t do a damn thing whoever called you tell them to call social worker and bankruptcy attorney
How awful. My 2 cents? Protect the ones you love. If you must get involved with mom to placate grandparents then get some time with a bankruptcy lawyer. If mom has other bright ideas or refuses she is welcome to go her own way. Don’t overthink it—she is a (legal) adult that has had plenty of time to get her act together.
Sadly, even though your grandparents meant well; they have enable this behavior for too long. My advice to them. Cut financial ties with her and be at peace.
That sounds like such a heavy situation to deal with, especially when you’re just trying to look out for your grandparents. Since she’s on the deed now and has that massive line of credit against the house, things are definitely tricky.
Don’t sacrifice your life to enable her poor decisions. Cut ties with her, not just financially but completely.
Either she declares bankruptcy or she sells the house and uses the proceeds to pay off the debt.
Whether or not BK will be viable will depend on the state she is in and what the homestead exemption is for your primary residence. It varies a lot – from as low as 30k of equity to almost unlimited.
If the equity she has in her house is below the homestead exemption, she can file Ch 7 and keep the house.
Leave this alone,even if you did help her file bankruptcy she wouldnt comply.Sometimes you have to let people struggle
I can’t even imagine how you would begin to help someone like this. We’re talking years of education and therapy just to get her to a baseline you can work with. I know it’s your mom, but you said yourself you don’t know her very well. I would not take on this responsibility.
> she’s a horrific gambling addict and very manipulative
Move on with your life. Nothing to be done here. Change their phone numbers and be a buffer between them.
As a child of boomer parents with mental illness/ PTSD from war etc. It’s not your responsibility to clean up your parents mess PERIOD! This is the life SHE is choosing not YOU let her deal with her own problems/mess. Do what you can in regards to preserving the home but let all that other crap go. Make sure you have insurance on her also just in case crap falls back to you when she passes.
I mean this gently – and I’m neurodivergent so I really understand what this is like first hand.
Your primary problem here is not the personal finance issue. Your primary problem is that your mom’s mental health is not adequately treated and she’s showing symptoms.
Everything you described is pretty consistent with mental health issues that aren’t being adequately treated – and yes – mental health issues can show uo as financial symptoms too. Mental health has come a *long* way. The best thing you can do is gently encourage your mom to get reassessed, and work with a psych to find a medication regime that works for her. There are a lot of new options now – so trying something new might help.
Your mom is unlikely to stop since these are symptoms. It’s like she’s diabetic. You can’t just talk her into creating more insulin – a diabetic will continue to have insulin issues until the insulin issue is addressed. Mental health isn’t different.
I’d be hesitant to bail her out – becuase symptoms will keep reoccurring. Instead- I’d focus on getting the root cause (the mental health issues that aren’t adequately treated) treated.
Another thing – a social worker can also be an amazing resource for you. There are loved ones who are off their meds – and finding a good lawyer who specializes in complex situations with families who have untreated mental health issues can be very helpful. A social worker sees people like you all the time and can help make referrals. For example – your grandparents were originally going on the right direction by leaving her off the deed. A lawyer who works with the mental healthcare community can best advise things like this, and a social worker probably knows who to recommend in your area.
Talk to an elder care attorney. You may need to seek a custodianship.
This is going to sound harsh, but one major reason OP’s mom never changed is because she never had to. Her parents, OP’s grandparents always bailed her out. No good can come from a new stand in savior. Tell grandparents you can’t do it and won’t. But also respectfully tell them it is far past time for your mom to sink or swim on her own. A tough a bitter pill; but no reason for you to go down with this Bismarck of a problem.
Your state’s bar association has a lawyer referral service where you pay a reduced fee for a 30-minute consultation. They may have a Modest Means program that you may qualify for.
Most states have a maximum cap for interest rates. See what your state says. Double check if the loan shark-esque company has a business license to operate in your state.
I’m unsure what you can and cannot do in her name because I don’t know who has financial conservatorship over her, if it’s there at all, or anything else.
Was your grandfather sound of mind when he put her on the deed?
You may want to look into the Legal Aid Society as well, if you qualify: https://www.lsc.gov/about-lsc/what-legal-aid/i-need-legal-help
You ask us to have souls, while simultaneously asking us to think with our brains. Those two things do not line up, in your current situation. Sorry to say, but the smart decision here is NOT the feel good one
I tried to help my mother because I felt it was the right thing to do.
It turned out bad. She lied to me and manipulated me. Put me in financial trouble and lied to others in the family, then tried to turn the family against me when I stopped playing her game. We no longer spoke and she died. I was so angry that my own mom could screw her own child. But to be fair… I told myself going in “If your own mother will screw you over, then it shows who she truely is” so I mentally prepared for her to do this before I helped.
It’s mental illness and they don’t care if others or whoever gets hurt.
Keep your distance. Do not get involved financially. Assist at arms length. Have your boundary set before you help.
The biggest lesson I had to learn when dealing w/ the codependent family dynamics around my bipolar mom?
“Never put time, energy or assets into a situation where someone is demanding I take responsibility where I have zero control.”
I also just divorced an Ex with a bipolar sibling just a shade more functional than your Mom.
So I’ve been to a few workshops on the topic of creating safe living situations for folks like her.
Back to the matter at hand:
Your name is not on the house.
You are not the one who put your Mom’s name on the deed.
You have nothing to gain and everything to lose by putting money or time into this shit show.
Your grandparents did a foolish thing by no doubt giving in to her tantrums and putting her name on the deed. They caused all this.
The only way I COULD see this working out would be to get the name of a
1- A good bankruptcy attorney,
and
2- A family attorney specializing in estate planning for adult special needs children.
Set up an appointment for your GRANDPARENTS as the co-owners and generators of this shit-show, to ask the lawyers what their options are.
THEIR options. Not yours.
What I can tell you:
Bankruptcy law is designed to allow someone to deal with overwhelming debt while keeping their home.
And they need a way to know that your Mom
will be safely housed, have reasonable housing, and be unable to repeat this behavior.
Your grandparents need their name off your Mom’s house so they and their assets aren’t sucked into the bankruptcy.
YOU need Grandparents to set up a situation that will provide for your Mom without requiring
constant contact or interaction with you.
I can also tell you that any apartment complex with 8 apartments or under doesn’t have to comply with Fair housing laws, so you have more control over who lives there/can make rules for tenants that wouldn’t legally fly in bigger buildings.
I propose this:
Have Grandparents get themselves off the deed and get Mom’s assets frozen & into bankruptcy.
WITH a legal contracts signed by Mom that, in exchange for fixing her mess, she has to sell back the house to her parents for the price of $10. They may have better luck by also promising her a day at disneyland or whatever she loves, so she will be more amenable.
Talk to the Family Estate lawyer about finding/buying an 8 unit local apartment building in a safe area, arranging the financing so you can allow two units to be rent-free and have a top-notch management company.
Establish a trust/holding LLC to “own” the building for liability reasons, and keep it out of Mom’s control. This will also make it easier to manage remotely.
Once grandparents get Mom through bankruptcy, sell the house, and use the funds for a down payment on an apartment building.
Move Mom into one of the free units, and let your grandparents decide if they want to retire onto the other.
If they don’t (can’t blame them!) they can start interviewing for a retired psych nurse or social worker with great references to offer free rent and a stipend to be the “apartment manager” who checks in on Mom daily, and coordinates doctors appointments, etc. for Mom as well. I’d offer a free cleaning service for Mom & Manager as well.
Now, here is where the greater legal control of the building comes in.
First, make it clear to the management company that you want background checks including any complaints from employers about stealing, stalking, creepy behavior, Any arrest records of reports of domestic violence or being kicked out of any programs for the same thing.
I’d even tell them that you prefer female tenants and want a heavily enforced “all roommates must be approved by management” and “no overnight guest more than 2x a week” as well.
Why? Bc bipolar people are very vulnerable to manipulation. And you want to have policies in place to keep your Mom from meeting up with predators.
You can also talk to the lawyer about offering a slightly higher rent and offering your apartments to families with similar high functioning, NON-VIOLENT (gotta stress that one) adult children who also need some extra looking out for.
Add an extra free apartment for other retired mental health pros, and arrange for the families to hire them for daily check ins, med checks, and make weekly apartment cleaning part of the rental deal.
Having a larger pool of “Managers” means that they can establish a schedule where there’s always one of them on premises, and they can rotate being on call for night weirdness.
There are a lot of families who have created privately owned “safe housing” for high functioning, non-violent autistic, bipolar and down’s syndrome loved ones.
And since many retirement communities refuse to take residents with bipolar or depressive issues? You may find that you become a favorite with the “slightly daffy grandma and her daily in-home carerer” demographic.
Either way, If your grandparents go this route, this will get your Mom out of a house that requires upkeep, into a place where she can live without your grandparents or you having to worry about her living situation nearly as much.
And the rent of all the units will cover upkeep, management, and eventually pay off the building, so in the long run, you won’t have to worry about supporting your mom.
Good luck!
There’s nothing you can do certainly you can be nice to her and respectful, but that’s about it
If she is not able to handle her financial affairs, you can file to be her conservator. Better yet, see if someone in the county can do this. As you seem to know, she will not change and maybe cannot change. If someone does not take control of her money, she will waste it all.
Talk to your grandparents and see what they want to do about their assets when they pass on. They could leave them to her in trust with you or with someone else as a trustee. If they are interested in this, they can meet with an estate lawyer. There is an estate sub on Reddit also for additional ideas. If they don’t want to do this, then everything will be lost and there’s nothing you can do about this.
If you are the trustee, it is possible/likely that your mother will harass you for money. Since you are not overly attached to her, this may not be a big issue.
It’s good that you are doing the best you can for her. It is good to set limits, but it is also good to help family within those limits.