What’s next for the European Green Deal?
thank you everyone welcome to the herty
school my name is Jesse Scott I’m an
Adjunct professor here teaching project
courses as a hobby alongside my work in
climate and energy policy I will be
moderating part of the evening’s event
we have an event with several lead
speakers so I hope we will have some
important ideas and then we will also
take questions from the audience at the
end so please be thinking of questions
as we go along
this is a joint event organized by the
STI and CA vsha and the herty school and
I’d like to open with just some words
from the two institutions first from
zabina ninger who is the managing
director of the shom and then from Dr
johannas Lindner who is the co-director
of the jacqu delore center here at the
30
School following that we will have a
keynote from the state Secretary and
then the state Secretary and Dr hartle
of vaka chemicals will have a panel
discussion with me and then as I say we
will have an opportunity for questions
so Sabino Johannes over to you
[Applause]
[Music]
first yeah thank you Jesse for your kind
introduction and first of all I would uh
welcome you very warmly here in the Hat
school to this very timely
event we Aton CLA WFT bring together big
German companies from all sectors of the
economy and we bring together the Front
Runners to get climate neutal in economy
and Industry I want to share three
messages today with you my first point
is some insights from our trip to
Brussels last week I have been there
with my team and we have had a big
conver conference in Brussels on
priorities for the next five years in
the European
Union One Thing be one thing became
clear in the discussion with all the
companies who joined us that business
are driving now the climate agenda what
they are doing is they are setting
climate targets they are developing
strategies and they make billions of
investments in climate neutral economy
so the most of the company I would say
are now doing their job but we now need
the right political support to fully
implement the European CLE green deal my
second point is about the international
competition and the role of the European
green deal so as I told you I speak to a
lot of companies in prussel and they are
all a lot Under Pressure because there
is a big competition from China and from
the US so the US uh has now put
$370 billion dollar on the table and
China is now dominating all most the new
technology the climate neutral
technology like solar panels batteries
electric cars and so on so the green
deal can be our answer but that means it
needs to be developed further so my
third point is that has to happen now
businesses as I told you are now part to
reach climate neutrality the European
green deal has to uh get support that it
will be a for and it will come yeah to
to uh the green deal so therefore it’s
important that we now implement the
European green deal and to develop it so
the green deal to deliver good jobs and
prosperity for
Europe so thank you so much dear SW
gigal and dear Christian harle for being
here with us you are the idle panelists
for the discussion today and thank you
so much johanes for the
collaboration you and uh the Shak dor
Center um we both together organized
this um panel and this event today and
um I’m very happy to have you all here
and now I hang hand over to you Johannes
very
good no thank you thank you very much
Sabina I fully agree with you it’s it’s
great great panel I think a very good
topic and it’s super nice to have you
all here at hery uh second organizers
also three points let be very very quick
but I wanted to also kind of put three
points uh to the panelist and three
questions that I think we should ideally
tackle and it very much follows from
what what you said Sabina I feel very
much first point I feel very much
reminded of
2019 and you may remember the election
at the time turned out to be less
populist than we thought a new
Parliament and a new commission and the
green deal as one of the cornerstones of
that new Commission Now if we look back
at these five years I think we can it’s
fair to say that we’ve achieved or they
have achieved a lot and that we’ve
really set up a new regulatory framework
so we’re now in a new phase and this
phase is a lot about implementation and
I think one of the key questions that
ideally we also tackle today is what are
the new instruments that are needed and
what’s the role of the EU in that the
second point is I think we are in
different circumstances than in
2019 uh there are we have an election
campaign that is still to be really
started but that focuses on a lot of
other priorities so be it security
migration economic performance so the
key question is how do in a way the
green deal the green policies interact
with these new priorities can we
integrate them you hinted at that
competitiveness and green deal there can
go together or are there tradeoffs and
uh do we not need to be also honest
about the trade-offs between these
different priorities mind you just one
little comment and it corroborates with
some of the research that uh Neil and
others have done I think we have the
tendency to idealize the
2019 uh consensus around climate but I
think we are also too gloomy uh at times
about uh what the current appetite and
the current support on climate is and
you look at the bar Euro barometer
between 2019 and now in fact in both
surveys it’s climate on place four now
of course different countries probably
different intensity but it’s interesting
and as I said our own research has uh
has collaborated this that it’s it’s
actually not as gloomy as sometimes is
presented and the temptation to say okay
we need to look at something else then
climate is sometimes pursued too readily
by some parties I would say final point
we know that uh the green deal will mean
uh a lot of green investment and that
can be done privately but also publicly
and we also know if we leave it only to
the National money that may actually
mean that some member states with less
fiscal space with less means we’ll
possibly not do the green Investments
that we want them to do and if we think
about green subsidies that there may be
a risk of fragmentation in the single
market now next Generation EU was an
important complement of the green deal
but it ends in 2026 so the key question
is what comes next and we know the
debate on a new EU budget will be
extremely difficult so one of the key
question that we need to see is what in
this next phase of the green deal how
can we manage the distributive conflict
that comes with it and with these uh
three points uh I’m very happy uh to now
listen to you and to hand over back to
Jesse thank you very
[Applause]
much thank you very much Mr state
Secretary the stage is yours
[Music]
So yeah thank you indeed for for the
invitation and uh great uh to make
progress towards using the first uh
Christian name uh between members of the
foundation between us and uh we have uh
I’ve already helped a bit here uh I find
it always silly if Germans uh uh use
first names in English and second names
uh in
um in German and if they switch between
the two they combine usually first and
second names and uh a confuse everybody
uh also thank you for your additional
questions Johannes and as always in the
end a finan EU Finance guy always ends
up with uh EU Finance questions uh
linking it uh sneaking it into any other
debate you may find uh and um I will try
to avoid it as good as I can uh so uh so
thanks for the foundation uh to host
this event and I can only mirror that
when I was lead candidate in 2019 for
the European elections in a totally
different uh public atmosphere Mass
demonstrations globally but in
particular in Europe around the issue of
uh climate and uh and then the green
deal uh was born out of that movement
and by the response of EU citizens to
that Movement we have really achieved a
great deal and to me the first message
here is not so much one about the
climate but what we have had so many
academic and populist discussion both
about the nonfunctioning of EU democracy
and the last election has proven
everyone wrong so if EU citizens want
something and they are supported by many
businesses by many people in civil
society and Academia on the basis of
climate research EU is changing course
and delivering even with our complicated
institutions so to put it bluntly Shar
is wrong uh he’s wrong EU democracy
works much better than the most
brilliant research from Max plank
Institute has uh written so much about
and um and also the cynics about Europe
European democracy have been proven
wrong and also the cynics over whether
it’s worth uh going to the streets
making your point you can deliver in
incredibly short period of time even in
controversial areas of policy and uh we
have now a legally binding framework for
the 2030 Target uh or in climate and uh
also a long-term goal of climate
neutrality by 2050 and uh and therefore
with the F fit for 55 uh package we
underpin the 2030 Target with
legislation across the entire economy it
will drive the transition in all its
member states and all sectors with um a
a very German idea at its heart emission
trading and uh not only in 40% of
emissions as we had it already before um
a bit less than 40% with industry and
energy production but also now uh
including uh transport and housing and
this means about 80% of the EU emissions
are now covered which is not so
important by a trading mechanism but by
a binding cap which is self enforcing uh
irrespectively of um new needed
political discussions and this is of
course only acceptable with a new EU
wide uh fund which is helping those most
in need to cope with the potential of
increasing prices and um as I would like
to stress this was groundbreaking
because For the First time ever an EU
Common Market legal base was
complemented by an instrument on the
same legal basis in majority vote
to vote for a social compensation so uh
this again proves a lot of academic
writers and cynics wrong that there is
no social functioning dimension of the
EU no if we use common market
legislation and the common market
legislation has potential negative
social consequences we can use that
legal base to compensate uh the most in
need and also this is groundbreaking or
in the fit for 55 um deal and then we
moved on and as you were rightly um
saying this package covering all major
sectors of emissions with European
legislation we have now moved on where
starting with the Net Zero industry act
in order to make sure that we not only
have binding legislation to reduce
emissions and getting more efficiency
but also to gain the economic advantages
and uh and this all this is not only a
legally binding theoretical conent but
it’s already paying off so um in um we
had now U 44% of in of uh electricity
based on Renewables in May 2023 that was
the first time on that level and we have
produced uh then more electricity from
wind and solar then from fossile fuels
and uh and now just now basically we
also for the first time had more
production of electricity from
Renewables then from nuclear and uh
solar energy is soaring all over the EU
with more than 50 gwatt installed last
year alone 14 of this in Germany and uh
we have at the moment seen doubling of
new investment every two years uh and
and for wind power we have assisted
massively deployment and also this is
now paying off with easier permitting
and less red tape uh when it comes to to
wind investment and the same we have
also done to grids and this is bitterly
needed but the whole energy transition
can only work with a functioning grid
system ideally European integrated to
reduce even further costs two .6 million
heat pumps were installed across the 14
largest EU markets this is confusing
because lots of social media says they
don’t work they are all expensive and uh
which uh is of course a lot of fake news
so um uh well and uh they are working
and they are expanding massively and uh
and then uh we also see that at the
moment and you pointed to this Johannes
we we are faced with more historic
challenges while climate change is get
getting worse and accelerating we are
faced at the same time with geopolitical
conflicts which uh and tougher and
tougher competition uh unfair
competition also in particular from
China and therefore uh we have both
challenges at the same time and uh and
in particular Global competition is
intensifying uh also in the area of
clean tech and it’s also based on um
different input factors of production of
which of course energy is and energy
costs is one of them and therefore it is
now for the next uh step of the green
deal so crucial that we make sure that
Europe profits from this turnaround also
in an economic sense so what is
therefore next from our perspective in
the green deal so let me first start
with saying the green deal is not
finished yet uh it will need to continue
to be a cre priority for the EU and its
member states we cannot uh give in to
fear-driven voices this would not only
harm our climate but also severely hit
our economy instead we must seize the
business opportunities in the green deal
and work to enhance them even further so
first we need to implement what we have
agreed and yes the targets are ambitious
some of these sub targets are really
ambitious and we will perhaps speak
about this H and uh but they are now
they are not a walk in the park uh there
is now therefore implementation and and
enforcement and for this it is needed
that the commission takes its job
seriously it is worrying that some um
diversion from targets so far have not
led to opening of infringement
procedures uh and uh furthermore this in
coincides that we need to develop
further with a commission analysis that
a large part of the 90 that a large part
of the 90% 250 climate Target could be
achieved by existing
legislation by implementing this U
seriously it is imperative that we
protect our achievements realize the
opportunities and not send further
confusing signals to businesses and the
public on the course of the green
transition I stress this so much because
we have a certain contradiction in the
public debate some important actors uh
on on Sunday they are saying European
investment climate needs regulatory
stability on Monday the same people
start um in Berlin to to say no we need
to weaken the green deal here and please
open that legislation and perhaps the
combustion engine is still the most
efficient thing where Germany has ever
invented and uh and that that is not
coherent so uh we need stability of
expectations this means also for us that
we will not suggest to radicalize or
reopen some of the deals we have now
made um but on the other side there
should be the same consistency
second we need to dissolve the false
Alternatives of cutting red tape and
ensuring high levels of standards in
particular in the green deal yes we need
to design and Implement legislation in a
lean way with as little bureaucracy as
possible planning procedures need to be
further accelerated especially for
strategic green deal Technologies such
as Renewables grids European
infrastructure and so on but also Beyond
but at the same time we should not back
down and lower all our already decided
standards of the green deal third we
need to make sure that we secure our
strong and Innovative industrial base in
Europe it has become apparent that
Europe needs its own genuine industrial
policy we are aware of the struggles of
Industry related to our unfa
International competition and also used
uh use of subsidies I strongly believe
that this is not only a government
position that we must be prepared to
take new steps in this situation so for
instance um we suggest that there needs
to be a new competition instrument which
looks into uses competition policy in
areas where effective Market competition
is absent where new startup companies
are driven out of the market by dominant
Global players and focusing these this
new competition instruments in markets
where we have a strong Global do
domination of global companies from
outside of course we support open
markets but especially in areas where
Europe has a strong industrial base we
should set strong pioneering EOS social
ecological and social standards this
will both support our industry and
strengthen the green deal Agenda One
Piece of legislation which will be voted
finally in the European Parliament this
week is the European sustainable
products regulation a horribly boring
title for something which is truly great
because it means I don’t know who
invents these titles always in Europe
but that’s another problem uh theor
could uh tackle uh but um
but the point is this means for
different category of products to Define
rules which make Recycling and reuse
easier to to ensure that they are energy
efficient and by setting such standards
in Europe it can help our industry to
retain and rebuild a a first mover
advantage and uh and these standards
should be used in order to deepen the
common market and use the common market
in order to Green our sectoral products
fourth uh we must need move forward on
financing of the transition Johannes
this is for you was already in the
speech um studies show uh the massive
Investments needed but also the big
rewards in terms of money saved on
energy Imports industrial growth new
jobs and lower energy bills for
households not to mention the High Cost
of inaction highlighted by the recent EU
climate U risk report so we must find a
way and we need to do it together as
Europe private Capital will play a key
role in financing the transition we must
therefore do anything we can to attract
and not to hinder private investment
which are urgently needed uh to make the
transition a success and for for this we
need the right framework conditions and
well-targeted Public Funding I have to
say that we join forces with uh the
chancell but also with the German
government as a whole to make sure that
the European Capital markets Union is
not seen as a bus word and then when you
need to deliver on the elements there is
always a strong resistance and we need
to deliver on all the different elements
so that capital Capital markets in
Europe integrate and this is a great
opportunity for startups and all actors
which are in need of equity all over the
union the negotiations of the eu’s next
multilateral fra Financial framework
post
2027 will not be easy as johanes
predicted we cannot preempt these
negotiations but we must ensure that the
limited EU funds are employed with
maximum effect to best support
transition while this is not a
government position yet we believe that
the in the next
mff it must be accompanied by further
own Financial Resources ideally linked
to the goals and instruments of the
green deal and let me go even further
with something which is not yet
government position H as you perhaps
know the OBD uh tax deal uh the pillar
one is not in agreement yet so at the
moment it doesn’t look as if uh taxing
digital companies and sharing the profit
base uh fairly between member states
would deliver quick results and
therefore the old idea already suggested
by junker uh to um to say let’s tax a
fair share of these Global profits in
Europe and use this as a genuine own
resources so taxing the profit profits
of large digital companies which ex
exert excessive Market power anyway in
in the common market this is an idea for
which we had a Europe an international
deal but if this deal is not withstand
by that deal but if this deal is not
delivered Europe is free to come back to
its original proposal and implemented
furthermore the role of the European
Investment Bank needs to be strengthened
to Har is its full potential to
transition support this means building
on the ambitious steps it has already
taken or initiated over the past years
uh with the E EI climate Bank road map
and forging ahead to address critical
gaps for example to support joint
European infrastructure for Net Zero new
Cutting Edge te clean Technologies H or
investment and adapt measures but
equally in defense fifth we need to
shape the next phase of the transition
as we get closer to climate neutrality a
new interim 2040 climate Target in line
with the
1.5° pathway will be an important
Cornerstone for this it will ensure
planning security attract clean
investment in the EU and also be a
signal to International part partners
that the EU continues with its
transition based on that Target we will
then need a fit for near zero package
building on fit for 55 it must again be
a package covering all sectors getting
all sectors ready for climate neutrality
for Germany it is clear that it must
also include targets for Renewables and
Energy Efficiency as these will do uh
the heavy lifting of green house gas
reductions but on the way to this the
first priority of the next commission as
everybody knows will be about investment
economic
competitiveness and uh Global com and
and and therefore delivering on getting
out the economic potential out of the
existing legislation the package must
also tackle the environmentally sound
rampup of negative emissions ensure
National responsibility on consider
uh social aspects finally we also need
to further develop the other areas of
the green deal which are not yet covered
we especially need to create a business
case uh for farming in the in line with
biodiversity objectives and creating a
toxic free environment there are
economic opportunities in this area
which are currently not enough exploited
so let me conclude that we achieved a
great deal and European citizens after
2019 got what they called for European
democracy is working we have to confront
the cynics and those who claim Europe is
not functioning if citizens want
something from European democracy they
go to the streets they go to the ballet
boards they work it works and we have
delivered and let’s now make sure that
we move from climate legislation to
climate business opportunities and
realizing the economic Prosperity
dimension of the green deal thank
[Applause]
you thank you very much so we’re opting
for first names here since we’re
speaking English tonight Christian would
you like to join us on the stage
please everyone we’ve had some very
interesting opening remarks
let me take johannah’s point that this
in some ways resembles 2019 when we last
had European Parliament elections and in
some ways some things have
changed one of the things that’s changed
I think or at least compared to maybe 10
years ago is we all now know it’s not a
walk in the park to deliver a green
economy I think there was a moment when
perhaps some politicians some
businesses adopted pledges and targets
without fully understanding the depth of
the effort that would be required and
that depth of effort as we’ve heard is
very very broad we’ve had tax
instruments mentioned I’m always
delighted when tax is mentioned because
if you have a policy discussion without
discussing tax you’re leaving out the
biggest tool in the
kit Capital markets Union the importance
of actually completing aspects of the
European project if we’re going to be
able to deliver some of the Investments
that will deliver the green
deal I think there’s a theme here about
whether we are gloomy about the politics
or actually there is some optimism about
politics all of that brings us to
sabina’s opening remark about the role
of businesses driving the agenda and
ultimately how can I put this the real
engineering that has to underpin the
green economy sustainable products so
Christian you’ve listened to these
various remarks I look at you thinking
of sustainable products you lead a
company which has been around for 110
years if I’m correct which has a net
zero 2045 Target and some quite stiff
targets for
2030 how are you doing and is the EU
green deal helping and is it helping
enough okay yeah thanks Jesse bunch of
interesting questions um maybe before I
start let me make some general
statements just to you know that
everybody knows where I stand and you
know because I’m you know you could say
I’m part of the good guys and part of
the bad guys at the same time um as I’m
from the chemical industry so chemical
industry um is very energy intensive
that’s a very intrinsic problem you can
call because we manufacture molecules we
put them together and um form new ones
and that is just the energy which is in
the chemical bond so it’s not because we
are inefficient
we are very efficient but it’s
thermodynamics so but okay don’t talk
about these topics too much um so I’m
sitting here as part as a CEO of a
chemical company I’m sitting here as a
entrepreneur so that means we want to
make money we want to be Innovative we
want to be very creative in the way we
do business and we love doing it on our
own so we don’t need politician all the
time sometimes and I think if you talk
about the transformation I do see a
necessity for the support from politics
but just to make that clear I’m
absolutely fine doing business with my
people on my own being creative looking
for new stuff I’m also not the biggest
fan of Regulation and legislation
because sometimes that hinders
creativity and competitiveness in a
global on on a global
scale um second statement uh I’m very
pro-european just just want to say that
in case somebody has a different view on
that um but I think we all agree in that
room on that um and the third thing I
would like um to say is we as vaker but
I can say the same thing for the
chemical industry in at least in Germany
where I’m part of the
FC um we are all absolutely committed to
this
transformation so there should be no
doubt about industry especially in
Germany but also in Europe I think it’s
a clear statement a lot of companies are
very committed you mentioned um we have
clear Targets on neutrality 45 we have
uh targets 2030 for um reducing CO2
emissions by
50% based on
2020 um we have science based targets um
validating our targets uh we just had
recently a report from uh the car
disclosure project where we got a best
mark on our climate um
activities um so we are very focused on
that we have a very clear plan and that
was your coming back to your question
very clear clear plan what to
do um but I would like to make the
statement this is not for free and it’s
not
easy um and one of the examples would be
energy so energy plays a vital role in
that whole transformation equation and
energy in the form obviously as green
energy because otherwise you know it
doesn’t make sense um but we also needed
at a competitive pricing and that’s
really the challenge um we face at the
moment uh and maybe that we will have
that at a at a later question again um
but I think in that case it shows that
it’s not only legislation that helps or
regulation because if energy is three
times as expensive as in other parts of
the world
you have a
problem well let’s pick up that question
then about the cost of energy the
competitiveness
implications there’s a lot of work
around at the moment from the European
Roundtable of Industry people who are
putting inputs to the dragy report
remarks from the European Central Bank
all saying that one of the big
challenges is grids and massive
Investments essentially a doubling of
the pace of grd Investments to 2030 is
needed you said climate Finance always
comes up as a question and it does how
are we going to afford those Investments
which will help us to bring down the
cost of energy by enabling us to really
use the renewable resources we have and
also to Electrify energy loads which
we’ve been a bit less successful at so
far in Europe can we do it on existing
private investment can we do it on the
rate base or are we also talking about
out Public
Finance look you sneaked in several
questions uh uh so um is uh let me start
with uh energy pricing and the grids so
um first uh first let us remind that uh
energy pricing which we had in the past
was uh not priced um according to the
true price of energy so we had Imports
uh uh from Russia we had Imports of coal
from Russia and elsewhere and uh future
Generations paid the price so we didn’t
have Fair energy pricing at the start
also some of our competing company uh
countries are using massively energy
which is not priced according to uh the
true value of it but it’s basically a
huge liit uh climate subsidy uh in the
respective energy pricing our problem
now is that we are now by requiring
transition internalizing a part of that
cost While others don’t so and for this
after long resistance we also also
Germany was at the outside rather
skeptical we accepted for some critical
areas the seab buum regulation which
makes up for some of that difference
even if the way how it’s at the moment
implemented by the European commission
is not a good example of cutting red
tape uh to say that and probably we
agree that this is but the idea is the
right one to say when we cannot have
pricing globally uh we but we do it in
Europe then we have to um uh make some
uh border adjustments
secondly we can achieve the transition
much more cheaply if we do it in a
European way so uh the European energy
Union is critical in order to reduce the
cost of the transition um and uh the
political problem which is my problem
every energy Council uh is that
unfortunately not all member States
agree fully H how to uh achieve it it
would be all much easier if we would all
agree
uh how to construct it but some member
states in particular one large uh uh and
by myself very much loved neighbor on
the other side of the Rind believes that
we keep U we keep we keep a more
centralized backbone while we believe in
a in a fully flexible fully
decentralized uh method of energy
production and then you have to connect
these two systems with with one grid H
and one planning approach this is very
difficult and and con constrains what we
can what we can deliver but there are
things which we can deliver so we work
with the French at the moment on a
flexibility strategy which is absolutely
critical so if demand and Supply um
exert the flexibility reserves this will
be by connecting the price signal uh to
the demand this will help everybody who
is less flexible to to achieve the whole
deal at a cheaper price we know that all
actors can be flexible some industrial
production methods need a stability
others may have uh flexibility reserves
but we need to shift as much demand as
possible into the hours when energy is
now um has a marginal cost near zero in
order to gain space for those who can’t
and and this is more effective the more
networked we are and that is what we
build on and there our French Partners
Noami apari they agree with us on this
and this is something where where I see
a priority for the next commission to
deliver so a full flexibility second
grids and I said it uh uh in my speech
that uh we have a European Investment
Bank which in reality is much less
European than the title I don’t know who
has coined that title uh is not European
it’s it’s basically using a European
triaa for refinancing national projects
there’s very little European in the EB
so what they they finance basically with
this financing Advantage between the
European triaa and uh the national
rating they finance national public
projects what they what we believe is
the eib should concentrate on European
public goods so they including the grid
but also financing uh defense efforts uh
where uh support from them is needed so
the EI will need to deliver much more
and lastly the next European budget uh
we will not be able to print money for
the next EU budget uh and that means
more parts of that budget will have to
fulfill several functions with the same
Euro so when we use cohesion spending
this can be a huge budget for the green
deal as was Next Generation EU cohesion
uh to regain its legitimacy has to be
focused on digital and green transition
and uh equally the The Greening of
agricultural budgets will be needed in
order to also leverage on that budget
for achieving other dimensions of the
green deal so multiple use of the key
budget elements will be key in order to
to answer some of these financing
challenges beyond that as a federalist I
would love to have easier answers uh and
uh we can agree on this but in between
we have to say openly there is a 27
member states consensus which we cannot
so easily do away with um so for this
citizens will have to go to the streets
in the end again uh yeah so also in
Germany it was very difficult to get to
a strong federal budget uh as you know
German history it was not so easy it
will not be easy in Europe
either I hope there’s a lot of candid
answers there that are helpful to you
you have operations around the world how
would you compare the um
kind of conversations you can have about
the role of policy as well as the role
of getting on with business in Europe
here compared to the conversations you
have in the US and
Asia well I mean if you if you put it in
a in a in a pretty blunt way you could
say that um in Europe we talk a lot
about legislation and
regulation to solve the climate change
the challenges the
transformation whereas specifically in
the
US you talk more about what’s the
business case nobody talks about what’s
the regulation necessary for that nobody
talks about legislation about that and I
think that’s
something I I personally believe we also
need to come to that in
Europe um and for me the promising
signal would be the um what has been
announced just recently with this
ANB uh ation um um by by Ula
ferline um in context of of talking
about an industrial deal and I’m not
don’t get me wrong it’s not about do we
have to choose now is it either or no
it’s not I think we definitely need to
integrate the ideas of the green deal
that you also you know advocated for um
but we need to combine it more with an
industrial deal to make it to make it at
the end of the day to make it a business
case uh and and to bring the
entrepreneurial Spirit into that into
that game because I’m you know I believe
in these
targets I don’t share to 100% your
optimism on what we’ve achieved because
just by setting targets um you know
that’s not half the bill right I mean
setting targets is maybe 10% of the bill
it’s important and you need to give the
guidance to the people definitely that’s
also what I do as a as a CEO uh but I
think it only makes a successful case at
the end of the day um if people achieve
it and therefore it needs to be
achievable and you need to um look at
what are the you know the cornerstones
what are the framework what is necessary
for that um and I come back to just one
point again for me it’s all about the
power of electricity of green El
electricity that’s the decisive Factor
whether Europe will make the case and be
the front
runner or the others take over I I see a
little risk in that that the others take
over because of a more pragmatic
approach to
it um and I think what we now need and I
mean we had a we had a great discussion
last year especially I mean with the BMW
K on the industrial power price which in
my view would have been such an idea of
saying come on you know we we fuel that
transformation by providing a power
price for a couple of years until we
have enough you know um competitive
price cheap
power um so it didn’t come unfortunately
um we still advocate for that because I
still think it’s a great business case
for Europe um and you need electricity
for everything also if you talk about
you know these so-called modern
Industries if you call talk about AI
yeah you know think about AI without
electricity it doesn’t work you need
more electricity for that so the more
electricity you provide as a
region green and competitively priced
the more business I guarantee you and I
think and that’s all that that is the
for me the super
simple but convincing business case and
and and and you worked on that I know
and we supported that strongly
unfortunately it did not fly you know
I’m not you know I’m I’m still fighting
for that or something similar because if
we all agree on the targets and if we
all agree on that scenario and you know
everything is great in
2050 so I think we just need to take the
necessary decisions now and now maybe
just a few comments on that grid we just
need the grid without a grid structure
it doesn’t work at all and yes we need
more inter links between between Europe
not body said that we have to do
everything on our own in Germany
wouldn’t work so utilize this whole grid
system uh within Europe use the
different forms of energy that are
produced um some more stable some more
fluctuating um the pricing model you
you’ve referred to I think is is
absolutely the right thing to do um
there will be hours where electricity is
super cheap and then we need Smart
Systems that take that electricity you
charge your car
makes cars more attractive so in in
theory it’s all clear but I think we
need now and that’s would be you know my
wish from from politics more this a
framework that tells me you know there
is security of supply for green energy
at a competitive price for the next 10
years that I can make a case on um and
that’s what we don’t have so
far yeah uh there’s a lot uh I I I
basically agree with it as there are
leading environmental lobbyists here in
the room uh I have to say that uh it’s a
bit dangerous but I’m a fan of the anwb
Declaration and I made the initiative to
invite all the signatories to Our member
to our ministry to discuss with you what
needs Europe next and we agree also with
the idea that they needs to be and you
heard it uh in industrial deal next and
and what’s so interesting thing about
the ANB declaration is that basically
European Industries and now lots of CEOs
and as you sound you saw signed on you
yeah signed we do not want industrial
policy as a value only as an idea in
itself but to realize the green deal not
to be against it as some here in public
debate suggest but in order to realize
it and that is basically the offer you
make and we we read with care what you
wrote there are some nitty-gritty
details I would not love yeah so uh you
will never find me as a fan of nuclear
energy I will not cosign and it’s an old
battle it’s
done um there good yeah okay but in the
principle ideas we agree we will I’ve
also suggested in the next last uh
Council on competitiveness
to invite the initiator to the council
so it was us as greens inviting you guys
to the European council meeting so uh
this is so I because I think that’s a
constructive offer made uh second um
when it comes to targets only this is a
I I think a deep misunderstanding of the
green deal because the green deal is not
only about targets it has sectorial
legislation and the sectorial
legislation adds up to that Target and
there’s so much more in this legislation
what frustrates me sometimes a bit is
that we never discussed the substance of
these groundbreaking uh laws so for
instance on housing we will now have in
the future an obligation to install py
systems all over Europe with new
buildings but also existing buildings
when it comes to cars we also have
binding leg legislation which will
reduce CO2 emissions and in the end and
end to the end of the combustion engine
in private cars uh the same applies uh
to Energy Efficiency in houses but also
Beyond so so basically it is not only
climate targets it is a practical
legislation which is legally binding
including the the build up of Renewables
everywhere in Europe so therefore please
as a coordinator of the green deal
negotiation of for the government I feel
a bit hurt being said you guy you only
deliver targets no we delivered
sectorial legislation legally binding
everywhere and that is what is so
important about the green deal let me
finish and then on the on your G power
yeah yeah yeah it you deserve a response
and it’s all very serious what you are
saying I think I I agree with you that
um
we our energy costs are a problem in
particular for energy intensive industry
and we uh we joined uh we were on the
same uh side and uh I was very much
surprised to learn that uh this was seen
as uh as an unjustified subsidy up to
the chancellor which I found very
doubtful the economic case for that
claim was very doubtful so uh therefore
the open question does it still need
public money uh in uh and I would say we
have Innovative tools which we are
rolling out in particular the the
contracts for difference uh which
basically follow the following idea we
do not give blunt subsidies but with the
contracts for difference we basically
guarantee that the BET of companies for
certain Green Market maret uh will turn
out positively if it turns out
positively the state will get something
back if it if the price uh will uh will
not turn out well for these green
markets the the the state will sneak in
money and that is a fair deal between
State and private investors giving um
investment stability uh to these future
green markets while at the same time uh
if uh the whole business case goes well
uh private companies will have to give
something back from the subsidies or
support they received that logic is a
fair deal and we will need it in more
sectors than where we have used it so
far but I would say therefore yes uh the
original problem which we tried to
tackle with the industrial power price
is not solved and it’s still an open
issue uh and uh and even if the prices
came down down uh to a certain extent
they are not yet on a competitive level
for for all relevant players in in our
economy CH yeah and that’s and just to
comment on your on your last sentence
and I think that’s the that’s really in
my case the missed opportunity for our
country and for our region because I
believe in in in the targets we have on
on on building um Renewable Power um um
the permitting got much easier so I
think it will be much faster the
bottleneck is now the grid but also the
grd guys tell me you know also the
permitting is getting much better so
there will be a good time in the 30s uh
with the avalability of green power
competitively priced but you know the
problem is you want to achieve it right
you want to you want to still be around
with your company at that time and that
was the idea behind this bridging power
price or Bren stro price
uh and and yeah okay so so we have to
look on that um maybe one comment you
said on on on the green deal and just on
targets um for me legislation is
something that can help honestly
speaking I think we talk within Europe
much too much about legislation and let
me say it in my simple words forbidding
something instead of incentivizing
something and I give you the example and
maybe it’s not a good example but if you
talk about this heat pump
discussion very lengthy
discussion um not always
Fair um
imagine the government would have
proposed saying from now
on industry power price or green power
Price Power price would be 5 cents for
everybody per kilowatt hour you could
have skipped the whole discussion about
heat pumps because everybody who can
calculate would have bought a heat pump
no legislation at all
necessary again it might might not be
the best example but I
think you can tackle the problem from
two sides either you make an incentive
that everybody says okay that’s it’s an
interesting thing power is cheap so I
buy a heat pump and get rid of my gas
fire thing and in in in the
seller or you say the gas fired thing
will be
forbidden get something new I think it’s
much more complicated it’s much more
difficult to convince people and at the
end of the day I don’t think it’s
cheaper so therefore I think and that’s
that’s but that’s a fundamental thing
and coming back to your question what’s
the difference between the us or other
regions in Europe Europe very much Focus
I have to say on this is not allowed
anymore you cannot do this anymore we
hate what you do here um and in other
areas other countries they do it
differently and sometimes have the same
positive effect out of it and therefore
I would be you know delighted if we
could also have a more discussion also
on this kind of positive incentive
schemes yeah I I I see the following
situation here so if you compare and I
think it’s a it’s a worthwhile Endeavor
to compare us and EU in this regard you
started with this logic I think um we
have to accept that the European treaty
made make Europe strong when it comes to
rules and weak when it comes to money
Johannes and me we already I already
made some jokes about it we we suffer
from the same problem H H basically I I
would love to have a fiscal Union uh
yeah but we don’t have it we have a
common market with common legislation
for this Common Market that’s where
Europe is strong where the Brussels
effect works if Europe sets the
standards it it has a good chance
becoming an international standard
that’s the famous Brussels effect Europe
will not be a leader in provision of
intelligent uh money not even for
industry so uh that is uh that’s
unfortunate because we cannot solve the
problem that it’s easy to talk about
expenditure but you have to also earn
the income and uh and there Europe is
bloody weak uh because and that means in
the US it’s the other way around because
of the toxic climate you cannot win
anything on regulation because this is
always seen as overregulation and so on
but you can convince a majority in
Congress when it’s about tax cuts so
therefore Biden he made a great move he
connected all sorts of public policy
projects not only environment by the way
minimum wages minimum taxation all sorts
of environmental regulation all
connected to a tax credit in order
because he could not never have won any
of those regulatory things is this the
most effective way and the cheapest way
to achieve certain of these um
objectives I’m not so sure because this
will be a huge cost to the US taxpayer
because they want to avoid um any
regulation and only get it through tax
subsidies and it’s not less bureaucratic
by the way we talk to companies now
applying for these subsidies in the US
they complain to us it’s a highly
bureaucratic approval procedure so
therefore what long story short what
seems to look so different as you
claimed in reality if you look look it
closer more closely the two are much
more similar only the sales method is so
different so um and this is because of
the institutional framework and the last
sentence on this is I’m so lucky that we
now agree on the same objective but we
have to sell it in different ways Europe
does common market legislation Biden
does taxation in the end it both has
fiscal and Regulatory consequences they
are only sold in different ways uh
that’s uh that would be my thesis I I’m
loving this this very active detailed
dialogue between business and green
politics and that’s a huge step on from
where we used to be frankly there’s a
lot of mutual knowledge there’s a lot of
mutual focus on how not if but how to do
this let me pick up while we’re looking
at Europe and sort of institutional
strengths and weakness
es the suggestion if there was a single
cheap electricity price anybody who can
do the maths would move to electrifying
energy loads including through household
heat
pumps the person we don’t have on this
stage is somebody from DG energy of the
European
commission really committed to the
single energy market and to the
particular ethos of the electricity
market for consumers that we have had in
Brussels are there some changes we need
to make in Brussels
if we’re to be able to have that kind of
very incentive based radical practical
discussion because we we’ve had
essentially we’ve had a European
framework which has been designed to use
existing assets rather than make new
Investments well the main thing which we
um which we won by the way often not by
full support of the commission it was
this radical easing of Permitting for
new grids and Renewables this was a
fight I led for more than for more than
a year in the council uh we didn’t make
lots of friends in the environmental
Council uh and uh but um it was really
necessary to achieve uh the the big
renewable change what second what we
need we talked about the stronger
integration of the grids and getting
more flexibility out of the system and
there the next European commission has
to more uh but of course we have now to
use also what we made in Europe so the
permitting rules uh they we they have
been improved but I pled also to you as
vakka I think works a lot in southern
Germany so the energy transition can
only work and limit the costs of it if
we have wind north and south and and
solar North and South but it’s the S
truth that several mainly south of the
mine uh states of Germany um do are not
very helpful to deliver their part in
wind energy and uh it’s to me a huge
political problem where I come from
northern Germany and we pay additional
fees uh because we are too successful uh
in Wind while at the same time uh others
are still blocking uh with all sorts of
uh um localism arguments uh the
necessary buildup of wind energy in
southern Germany we see similar
resistance in other parts of Europe but
we need the the the power of business in
order to get the permits uh out of
really done not only Northern and
Eastern Germany but also in southern
Germany Christian a short one yeah I
mean I fully fully agree with you
couldn’t couldn’t agree more with you
and then you know I’m our company is
based in in we have the biggest Bavarian
chemical company but you know it’s not
uh government based it’s it’s a it’s a
free company so yes I always hope that
government in Bavaria would be
business-based but I was we always talk
to we talk to all our stakeholders and
that’s all the governments all around
that’s in Bavaria that’s in saxonia but
that’s of course here on the federal
level and also on the European level no
yes we we need I mean obviously we we
Empower this uh and we just recently had
a very strong discussion on a local wind
onshore wind Park which would have been
the biggest in Bavaria which actually we
promoted and uh well have to see how how
it works I’m still missing the full 100%
support from you know from the local
government but we are improving um but
maybe to make a comment on that I think
this this idea of having different
different grid system or different grid
tariffs uh is not a good idea um and and
what you refer to today is more the
distribution grid fee which is not the
huge aspect of the oval grid fee but at
least in the transmission grid what we
would need definitely a single priced
grid fee because otherwise it would be
disastrous for both ways it would be
disastrous for the industry in the South
because energy pricing would be higher
and it would be disastrous for the guys
that invest into offshore wind for farms
in the north because then the power
would be cheaper so I think this idea of
having a um divided power zone for
electricity in Germany uh is uh is a
stupid idea I’m going to than no I’m
just I’m not saying that you support it
I’m just saying it’s a stupid idea we
fight it we fight it we fight it with
you but we cannot win that debate in in
Brussels if the windmills are
not installed in th Germany if they are
not installed we will lose this in
Brussels on which got it I’m going
to interrupt this fantastic conversation
because what we have here is a detailed
knowledgeable humorous mutually
understanding practical discussion this
is what we have needed for years if we
are actually to deliver the green deal
this is fantastic I strongly recommend
that the shiffon and herty have a a take
two version of this conversation in six
months or a year but meanwhile I’d like
to take some questions from the audience
for our panelists I’m going to take the
questions in clumps of three just for
efficiency the young lady in Maroon
there the gentleman at the
back and one over here thank you so much
for this discussion Sophie Pon from robj
which is the
uh Think Tank sister in Brussels working
on sustainability issues one comment is
that um and I need to remind it here
because it’s been not very clear I felt
on the panel that the commission often
just is very very prudent especially
lately on the green deal because
obviously they will only propose
whatever goes through the council and at
the current situation it’s quite
difficult so it’s quite easy to hit on
the commission but you know um they are
quite being quite prudent I think and I
feel like it’s yeah easier to say that
in Berlin than in Brussels
I have three questions the first one is
Perhaps Perhaps just one question yeah
just one
no um the first one was B on Agri food
because it’s a huge issue with the
farmers protest and what the German
government is going to do on the cap
reform um and whether you know it will
you try to kind of change it and align
it with the green deal the first thing
is also and that’s maybe the main
question returning to the first one on
how the German government is going to
support the sustainability competitive
sustainability agenda knowing that we
have a debt break and that the fdp is
never going to accept that I’m kind of
wondering how you know Germany is going
to support that agenda going forward
because it feels like squaring the
circle a little bit trying to kind of
have less money but at the same time
having an industrial policy thank you
sorry let me take those because we have
a lot of hands up so I’m trying to be a
little Fair here um at the
back maybe I cover one of the questions
my name is Anna Ana leitz I’m working at
brunford group and I used to be a member
of the European Parliament um I would
like to know uh as Waker is one of the
strongholds on keeping photo volaric in
Europe uh where do we stand and where do
you perceive or where you both perceive
as uh as we fought uh leaving the
dependency on gas and now building up
capacity on green energy as this was
mentioned the whole evening how do we do
this if we are depend then particular on
China and how do we build up capacity
inside Europe and where do you both see
the Europe went over the last years and
how do we have to move to actually make
this happen in the upcoming term thank
you okay and one more in the current set
if I could have a microphone over here
thank
you thank you my name is Wolf Gang I
work for eia the biggest European search
engine we spend all of our Sur CL on
climate action both of you talked about
uh a lack of legislation lack of money
and I think there’s one area where the
money is there where where the
legislation is there and that’s public
procurement I think we spent 500 billion
EUR in Germany alone on public
procurement the bunus re audited the
German government a couple of years ago
and found out that every second purchase
and decision every second purchase and
decision was violating existing law in
spending existing money yeah um
violating um environmental
aspects environmental um procurement uh
uh legislation so my my question is how
can this be changed what is the reason
behind that how what in terms of
leadership is needed what can we as
public do in order to change this and
have those 500 billion euros uh
work support the infrastructures of
tomorrow that that we need this this
this country would be a different place
if if if that was happening okay so we
have Farmers the future of the cap the
debt break public procurement and solar
Manufacturing in Europe and dependencies
Sven you
first okay so first uh thing I I I need
uh to set uh straight in the green deal
negotiations the council for the first
time ever Anna you wouldn’t have
believed it the council was regularly
more greener than the Parliament and the
main problem why the parliament is was
not as green as the council was because
Ula ferine doesn’t for all his her
policies have a majority in her own
group and the Bavarian sorry again so
the Bavarian leader of the EP was her
toughest enemy so therefore the old
Dy Parliament for environment and the
nasty Council has blocked it all and
that’s the oh no you were indicating
they are so prudent because there’s no
count now because there’s no council
support no the main problem is there is
no Parliament support anymore and that’s
why par it’s so important what’s
happening at the European Parliament
elections in the council there was on
many files a Greener position that until
recently I can give you the list uh than
from Parliament so therefore citizens
have a choice whom they vote in the
parliament so then second uh the cup
reform I have to say there’s not yet a
government position on it so I’m not
allowed to give you uh something
detailed because there isn’t then um
when it comes to uh the debt break so of
course Germany puts a lot of public
money into financing in particular also
the industrial Dimension but also heat
and other areas we have the climate
transition fund the climate transition
fund is well resourced it has received a
certain hit but still uh we are putting
a lot of money in and when it comes to
public procurement I can only say we are
preparing a large public procurement
reform that’s um uh in my competence uh
I’m very optimistic that soon this will
come out you will see it will cut a lot
of red tape and at the same time
delivers better for the environment uh
and social rights and uh and I’m very
optimistic that this can be a positive
project this can also use the EU space
left for large procurement decisions
main decisions are European and
therefore public procurement is very
high on the list of the changes we need
to make in the common market in the
lettera report this was highlighted this
receives uh in principle support by the
German
government Christian okay I could say
something on the Anna for the um
European solar power ideas and so for
this opportunity I always have a piece
of polysilicon with me so you can see
that’s the that’s the material of the
dreams because you can make two great
things out of it so it’s hyper pure
silicon the element silicon which is
really abundant on this planet in mostly
in the form of sand so you don’t find it
in this form you have to produce it and
it’s energy intensive process and it’s
uh super pure it’s the purest material
on the planet uh and you can make solar
cells or semiconductor chips out of it
uh now in the semiconductor field we
actually have a market share of about
50% worldwide so every second computer
chip is made with our material in the
Solar space we are currently probably at
around 5 % we have been at 20 some 15
years ago um and guess who took the
share now all of that business is now
essentially in China and we are the last
man standing making the first step of
the solar value
chain and um yeah I mean we have been
talking very much with with BMW K also
on this just I think last week we had um
interchange on that um it’s a it’s a
challenging situation I think everybody
agreed after the Russian attack on
Ukraine that we need to be more become
more resilient on energy forms and also
solar is a part of that as 95% is done
today in China China is for us also a
market because again because there’s
nobody left so if you produce also
silicon polysilicon today in Germany or
in the us as we
do China is an important market for
us um now building up a new value chain
total value chain in the in in in
Germany or in Europe I think is a good
idea I would never go as far as saying
to become independent from the biggest
Market in China because I think that
wouldn’t be also financially not wise
and we could utilize also what they do
and they have large scales so it’s it’s
a benefit it’s it you know makes
material cheaper these scales but having
kind of a resilience of let’s say kind
of a 20% 10 20% of your demand I think
that would be a good idea for
resilience uh and yeah we are advocating
on that we are already here so there’s
actually no no lack of European
production
capacity um but what’s missing today is
the next steps in that value chain next
steps is guys that make you know large
Wafers out of it and again it’s an
energy intensive process and it’s very
difficult to find somebody who will do
it within
Europe um and therefore again I come
back to my my simple statement in the
beginning it the equation is all about
electricity once you can offer
electricity you will attract more
Industries and and businesses and then
they do something now if you go further
in the value chain on on the cells and
on the modules uh it’s that’s a
different process is essentially not
really energy intensive um it’s more a
manufacturing complex manufacturing
process um but I tell you if you build
up a value chain and you missed second
two
steps it then it’s not really resilient
I mean I mean then I would say just buy
the stuff directly from China it’s
probably cheaper than overall uh but
then you have no resilience and I think
therefore it’s really coming back to a
political decision uh and also it goes
back to your question also um the public
money that is spent uh and and that’s
also our ideas saying you know if you if
you make a solar solar panels on on a
new building for the government then
then you can ask as a government uh we
want at least 20% 30% of the material
produced fully in the EU and we are
willing to pay a higher price because
man of fact uring is somehow more
expensive so it’s still going on but
it’s to be honest I think it’s a
difficult discussion also within Europe
and especially if you talk about power
pricing and here again coming to Europe
I appreciate your comments or what you
said about the US and I didn’t say
everything is easy in the US um I
wouldn’t go as far as you saying it is
as complicated it just looks
different um we have some intrinsic
issues I think in Europe because we are
27 28 countries yes uh but for you know
for a business you know you have to take
a decision and if it takes forever for
for taking a decision um and you know
kind of the Obscure and let me make this
comment as a last comment sometimes the
Obscure from my point of view
discussions I had in Brussels were that
people told me okay we want you to
produce more of this stuff uh you know
okay you need cheap electricity but
that’s a problem with the internal
market so I said yeah but what’s the
problem well you know we are for free
competition within that
market and then I said okay but the
problem is there’s nobody left it’s only
me so if you give me a at a power price
for poly silic it won’t harm anybody
because there is
nobody and you know that’s kind of and
if then the answer is well you know we
don’t have any plan for this um maybe we
need to have some competition for you
and I said okay interesting but that’s
not actually what we’re looking for um I
don’t mind competition but it doesn’t
solve the problem um you know we have
plans we can invest we have the money
you know um we have great people uh but
if I build a new plant the first day I
switch it on I probably make a loss
because power price too
high another time we will definitely
have either DG competition or DG energy
from the European commission as the
third member of the panel then it’ll
really run for longer I’m going to take
one more quick round of
questions okay the three fastest were
here in the sort of stripy sweater at
the back actually if you put your hand
up keep your hand up so that the people
with the that’s right great okay please
go ahead first thank you name is Lucas I
work for a company Consulting companies
like yours on buying electricity and um
we when we do the calculations it
doesn’t seem that the electricity price
in Germany even with all the Renewables
and the grid integration is going to
come down two levels um that this
brooken Strom price would assume for
2030 so my question is what are other
Solutions Beyond Bringing Down the
electricity price to that level because
I mean in the end that would require
subsidies until
2050
okay next
question here we go
yep no me okay Hi Lis Brickman from CDP
formerly the carbon disclosure project
um San at the beginning you talked a lot
about the need for private Capital as a
key way of financing the transition
we’ve talked a lot about Public Finance
today so I’m curious to hear from you
what do you see some of the key gaps
remaining to mobilize the necess private
capital and then maybe to you as well
Christian do you experience a lack of
sufficient private Capital as a
hindrance to your efforts and what would
be some of the biggest changes you would
like to see to to close those
gaps okay and then we had this guy here
in right in front of
you perfect thank you thank you uh
Martin stavenhagen from PR principles
for responsible investment an
organization that helps big Pension
funds and other investors to integrate
ESG into invest investment decisions and
my question very much relates to what
CDP asked as well my colleague from CDP
um asking about the EU sustainable
Finance framework if the taxonomy and
other instruments uh sustainability
reporting requirements and so on um are
actually helpful for transition finance
and uh what might be done to make it
even more helpful or to improve it going
forward and is there a hty student in
the room who would like to add one last
question
okay young lady
here in the white
jacket hi um cherl white mppp student
about to finish my thesis specifically
on energy topics and flexibility and all
of that so you talked a lot about both
one market and also one energy price and
I would like to ask both of you to
elaborate a little bit more on what that
actually means for you does it mean
having one energy price all over Europe
um I don’t think so cuz that wouldn’t
really be economic feasible so what does
that mean and also we see price
differences both north to south in
Germany as well as in Europe and also
east to west and we also see a lot of
conservative or highly coal-based um
countries being opposed to a lot of what
the green deal is about so how do you
see that topic moving forward in the
next four years as well thank you okay
so we have the electricity Market we
have do 27 countries wish to pull in the
same direction generally on the green
deal but perhaps also on the electricity
Market we have the future of electricity
prices and essentially how ultimately we
can bring down Green electricity prices
to a level where they enable everything
else we need to build on that we have
questions about the role of private
capital is this efficient private
capital and last but absolutely not
least sustainable Finance Frameworks and
the RO role that they play who would
like to pick up first Christian perhaps
yeah I could I could start maybe the
question from Lucas on the um where you
said where where where do we end with
the with the power pricing um well first
of all I think we need to make
sure and we all talk at the end of the
day about an Allin power price I mean I
think that that’s the conclusion because
doesn’t help me that you know power is 4
Cent you know at exchange and then I
have to add another 8 cents with some
other stuff so when we talk about a
single number we talk about all in
including grit free um so I think we
need to look that you know all these
other components are getting really to a
minimum and I think if you talk about
Renewables I think we also should make
sure um that for example if you go
offshore that you don’t have auctions
for these areas where the where the
country earns
billions and and you know feels like
happy making a great deal uh putting the
money somewhere else but at the end of
the day the company that produces the
wind the electricity with wind puts that
auction money they put on the table on
the on the on the energy
price so I think we need to avoid this
and then I I I believe we can come into
this area of of five to six cents
definitely and uh but but you know the
question with the industry power price
was always not
the absolute number we introduce an
absolute number to make it more tangible
because otherwise people talk about
different things um but it I mean the
main idea behind it was it needs to be
competitive with other regions so and
therefore it could also be a fluctuating
price um and but I honestly I don’t fear
the um the the the let’s say the
competition on um energy pricing with
let’s say Saudi Arabia I everybody knows
there’s more Sun than we have uh um but
come on I think the problem is not if
you produce it for two cents or if you
produce it for 4 cents that’s not the
decisive Factor decisive factor is
really is it 4 cents or is it 15
cents um so therefore you know I’m I’m
still optimistic that with the
Renewables we will have a power pricing
that can bring us to a competitive um
scale
um there was last question on um Power
Market One Market One Price well I mean
my understanding was not one price for
all of Europe probably not and you will
have these you will definitely have
these fluctuations over the day because
of um because of the Renewables and then
it all depends on the grid
interconnections but I think the more
grid interconnections you have the more
you can come to a more balanced pricing
system
um you know today we have we have a
production of silicon metal which is the
precursor of that stuff also energy
intensive that’s in Northern Norway
that’s in the NO3 region which is not
interl greatly to the other Norwegian
regions of course which is great for us
because the power price is cheap now if
you link this to the rest of Europe what
will happen is NO3 goes up all the
others go down um but I think I think
that will be the future that you have
more interlinkage and then you know
everybody can utilize it depending on on
on what are the peak pricing at the
moment and I think we haven’t seen this
so far to a large extent but I’m super
optimistic how that will be utilized we
also look at this how we can um steer
our processes so the poly silicon
process is kind of 70%
electrified um but typically we take you
know the same level
24/7 um and we hate fluctuations on
millisecond scale um but of course we
could go 20% down in
consumption which leads to 20% less
product so is is that ultimately the
great thing to
do not yet but I think you will see also
in Industry that more and more go into
that direction to utilize the
fluctuating power
pricing so you to add on that thanks for
giving me the floor uh this is um what’s
name the um so first uh we delivered for
industrial planning permissions uh in
Net Zero industry act we delivered in
the net zero industry act with a
resilience auctions exactly what you
demanded that there will be a markup on
local production and uh as you know we
didn’t unfortunately in the Solar pact
uh now want the same in German
legislation but we want it in EU
legislation and it will now be
implemented and uh that is uh the
economic backbone of what exactly what
you were asking for and uh and these
maximum short maximum time span for new
permits of industrial facilities uh in
EU law for the first time is also
exactly what you asked for so I would
say what you were demanding we delivered
already uh second
um I didn’t hear anyone speaking about
one price ER but we spoke about um
reducing the total cost by better
interconnection it doesn’t solve the it
doesn’t change that there will be not
one pricing Zone it will only better
connect the different pricing zones
when it comes to guessing future prices
Lookers uh don’t get me wrong but I won
one good bottle of wine from the lead
Economist of U of the chancell um
cookies and one good bottle of wine from
the lead Economist uh of um of the
finance ministry H not because I believe
in the supremacy of green economists in
the CH in the economic Ministry uh so
myself but uh in because they got
totally wrong to foresee the price of of
gas one year ahead so I wanted because I
was much more optimistic on bringing
down the Gas they believed we are too
stupid in the economy Ministry to manage
NAD prices and delivering and we were
much better and uh therefore I I still
wait for my good bottle of uh the
finance ministry I got it already from
the transfer so uh uh therefore only I I
I only deeply skeptical of people who
claim they know prices in 20150 you have
no clue and therefore uh I don’t believe
you H and uh note personally but about
the pricing uh therefore we I believe if
we all massively invest in Renewables
prices will come down and uh and if we
Finance the grid infrastructure
intelligently uh we will also avoid that
this leads to a doubling again then when
it comes to the question of um the
auctions which you mentioned I have to
say that offshore wind does not set the
price so offshore wind is not setting
the marginal price and therefore the
money we earned H basically has not uh
stolen any money from cheap Renewables
it has also only made sure that a form
of energy which is not crucial for
setting the price uh in the Merit order
uh will um will also have uh to finance
a part of the public bill uh which uh we
have to um Finance then short
disagreement on that because on the
other hand you ask us to make PPA so
ppas with wind farms are essentially
getting more expensive because of
auctions I agree if there is a PPA model
in involved it’s true but in the normal
uh in the normal financing Arrangement
uh this argument doesn’t stand uh and uh
then um mobilizing private Capital uh I
I would
say generally if I speak to Banks they
always tell me openly um look s uh we
have no shortage uh of um of debt money
really there is not so uh Banks stand
ready to finance they are searching for
profitable uh investment uh
opportunities in comparison to the risk
where we have a problem is uh in some
parts of Europe public financing we
spoke about this and we have a problem
with equity in particular for startup
and growth companies and there therefore
we need this Capital markets Union also
for the Innovation we need to deliver in
Europe which is fully consistent uh with
the green deal uh um ideas and and there
we have a problem I personally never
believed that the taxonomy will in
itself will really help financing
projects I always regarded this as a
sales argument for the taxonomy uh and
uh because capit perfect Capital markets
are not if a business case is profitable
a perfect Capital Market will finance it
regardless how many taxonomies you put
on it but what it will what it does and
that is really an important contribution
is it delivers data and forces companies
to be transparent how green they are so
those companies which are Greening will
therefore by customers by the state by
um by public in in
reputation uh but will have an comp
Competitive Edge and but for this you
need comparable data and the taxonomy H
and the respective financing rules help
to uh develop that data I admit that
this argument the taxonomy has often
been sold as diverting capital flows
which I think from an economic
perspective it could have never
delivered uh shos for instance made that
point very early on in the debate and
was right however there is a is a value
in it uh and but um and therefore um
it’s it’s it’s good that um companies
and in particular Finance institutions
have to be transparent uh which have how
much environmental future risk and that
makes a capital Market working
better swen I would uh I appreciate your
comment on the um that you’re not OV
excited about tech
onomy um I’m rely over excited
yeah but I have to say I’m I’m I’m not
excited about I’m I’m I’m not at all
excited about taxonomy and I can tell
you why the idea again as many European
ideas the idea is
good the way it’s done is bad and I tell
you in our case so in the chemical
industry and you know this stuff
is not in the taxonomy mhm I’m the only
one that makes this green stuff that
makes solar cells and computer chips in
Europe and it’s not within the taxonomy
and we keep punching the guys and
telling them there’s something wrong and
the answer is well we’re not there
yet we started with end consumer
products yet I say okay then let us get
rid of the stuff for us until you settle
your case once you’re done
implement it and don’t so I have to
report on it I have I hired
people to report on the stuff and what
comes out of it is we are
negative so I think that’s a stupid I
mean this is close to stupid so
therefore your question was what how can
taxonomy improve I mean either we get
rid of it which I think might be hard um
or make it kind of feasible or you know
kind of that everybody has an advantage
from it because today I only have work I
have no advantage and I have to tell
some investors luckily not many uh why
we are not on the good side on
taxonomy let’s be generous and say that
the taxonomy is an example of learning
by doing as is much of the green deal I
want to thank very much our two
fantastic panelists who have been quite
excited in this
conversation I’m excited too because
what we’ve had here is is a discussion
which could have been about the
political calendar and political
personalities actually it’s been about
green economy green Energy Engineering
Finance this is the big elements that
are actually about whether we can turn
nice Targets on paper into a genuinely
different economy that will deliver on
climate
security and it’s great that that’s the
Hot Topic and it’s great to see the
audience as excited about that topic
lots of strong views lots of appetite
for the next steps here thank you very
very much big round of applause for our
panelists
The Jacques Delors Centre and Stiftung KlimaWirtschaft are happy to invite you to a high-level public event on the future of the Green Deal, with a keynote by State Secretary Sven Giegold, a panel discussion and a Q&A session.
2024 is a crucial year for the European Union’s ambition to achieve climate neutrality by 2050. Over the past years, the European Union has pushed significant reforms as part of the Green Deal to put the continent on track. As the Green Deal now moves into the phase of implementation, the European economy will have to rapidly transform, impacting businesses, industries and citizens alike. At the same time, Europe is under pressure to react to a dynamic race for clean technology leadership and new markets, which has been forcefully unleashed between the big economic blocs. Climate policy is now a matter of economic competitiveness and geopolitical resilience. As we enter a year of critical elections and political inflection points, this event asks the question “What’s next for the European Green Deal?”.
With our distinguished speakers, State Secretary Sven Giegold and CEO of Wacker Chemie, Dr. Christian Hartel, we will discuss national government and business expectations for the next phase of the European Green Deal: What is needed to make the European Green Deal an economic success and the basis for the EU’s global green leadership? And how can Germany work together with its European partners to ensure the transition to climate neutrality remains a top political priority for the next European Commission?
The panel discussion will be moderated by Jesse Scott, Adjunct Professor at the Hertie School and Visiting Researcher at the DIW Berlin, and be followed by a 30-minute Q&A with the audience. Sabine Nallinger, Managing Director of Stiftung Klimawirtschaft, and Dr. Johannes Lindner, Co-Director of the Jacques Delors Centre, will deliver the opening remarks.
Programme:
Opening remarks by Sabine Nallinger, Managing Director of Stiftung KlimaWirtschaft, and Dr. Johannes Lindner, Co-Director of the Jacques Delors Centre
Keynote by Sven Giegold, State Secretary at the German Ministry of Economic Affairs and Climate Action (BMWK)
Panel discussion with Sven Giegold and Dr. Christian Hartel, CEO of Wacker Chemie, moderated by Jesse Scott, Adjunct Professor at the Hertie School and Visiting Researcher at the DIW Berlin
Q&A with the audience
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