Dr. Gurpartap Sandhoo – Director, Emerging Technologies & Architectures – Space, Northrop Grumman
[Music]
welcome to another episode of progress
potential and possibilities discussions
with Fascinating People designing a
better tomorrow for all of us I’m your
host Ira Pastor welcome everybody again
to another episode of our show today
bringing you another awesome guest uh
who’s been involved in creating a better
and safer tomorrow for all of us uh
today we have the honor of being joined
uh by Captain Dr garta Sandu director of
emerging Technologies and architectures
for the space sector uh at North Grumman
there he’s focused on leveraging new and
emerging Technologies and Manufacturing
processes to ultimately shape the future
of both civil and National Security
space uh Dr Sandu previously served at
both the defense Innovation unit at the
Pentagon which is a a US Department of
Defense organization that’s focused on
US military um and allowing them to make
faster use of emerging commercial
Technologies uh there supporting that
organization’s space portfolio uh
focusing on various commercial space
Technologies uh he also served as deputy
director of iarpa the uh the
intelligence Advanced research project
activity uh there supporting the
director and their day-to-day management
of the organization and helping them
execute on that really diverse uh
portfolio that we’ve profiled a bit in
the past on these high-risk High payoff
research programs uh for these difficult
challenges of our intelligence Community
uh Dr Sandu previously occupied the
distinguished visiting Professor uh
Robert Highland owed chair in
astronautics at the United States Naval
Academy and at the US Naval Research lab
he headed the spacecraft engineering
division he was also acting director of
the naval Center of space technology uh
and he was also a flight controller at
NASA’s Johnson Space Center and research
and development engineer at the Johns
Hopkins University Applied Physics
laboratory back in 1986 Dr Sandu began
to serve in uniform in the United States
Marine Corps and the US Navy and is
currently as mentioned still a captain
in the US naval reserves he holds a
bachelor’s degree in mechanical
engineering from the University of
Maryland Masters in electrical
engineering from Johns Hopkins masters
from the United States Naval War college
and both a masters and doctorate in
Aeronautics and aerona uh Aeronautics
engineering from George Washington
University and is also a uh an MIT
seminar 21 fellow um a lot to get into a
lot of really cool topics really cool
guy uh Dr goodart up sand do thank you
so much for taking time to come on our
show hey thanks GP works for me um the
uh every time you somebody says doctor
or whatever I look around the room and
also I did retire from the Navy back in
October so hence the long here now so as
of
uh I think it was 37 years two months
and 10 days I ended up serving uniform
from 196 on 1986 onwards so yeah thanks
for having me this is great um I enjoy
your show um I love the way you do this
and uh yeah let’s get into it for
absolutely and again based on that long
is I want to thank you at the beginning
for your long service to the United
States and again keeping us safe but um
yeah I’m really looking forward to to
getting into these topics today because
you know you’ve been on such an amazing
journey um would love to start off as we
typically do by by handing things over
to you a little bit to to tell us more
about the beginning you know I in
reading about you I I enjoyed not just
you know learning about a guy that you
know you join the Marine Corps yet at
the same time you’re starting your your
freshman year University of Maryland and
and while you’re taking classes you’re
you’re developing all these cool you
know solar and meth all powered Formula
SAE cars in your spare time and then a
couple years later you’re thinking about
this uh this gyro thingy on the Hubble
Space Telescope that keeps failing um
take us back to those first couple years
it all starts up pretty fast and
furious it does and a lot of times it
starts out of necessity um so uh so when
I when I so obviously I migrated from
India to to the US my sister was here my
mom was here and I showed up here in 84
uh as a permanent resident and you know
I was it was it’s different that’s for
sure and uh about six month six months
into it realized that I gotta figure out
what I’m going to do with my life so I
got a job at United Parcel Service
loading trucks back then in those days
UPS paid you almost 11 12 bucks an hour
so you could work and this was minimum
wage like
$3.50 so you could work onethird the
time and make the same amount of money
right on average but it was loading
trucks and from 11:00 p.m. to 3:00 a.m.
and that’s that’s my that was kind of my
first job but I started college at the
same time and I was going through this
stuff and again this is
uh your audience that’s a little bit
older remember they used to have this
commercial the Marine cor did where this
guy is climbing up a mountain and slays
a dragon on the top I’m like that looks
pretty cool I actually walked to
recruiter’s office I said hey I want to
do that he goes well here’s what you can
new so you can enlist as a permanent
resident um you just can’t be an officer
and there’s a bunch of jobs that you
can’t have so I was it was a limited
option that I could do as a green card
holder and one of them was combat
engineering so I enlisted Marine Corp
and the GI Bill and so my initial
motivation was to be able to uh pay for
school somehow figure how to go get my
school paid off but I liked it it it was
great it was a it was one of the few
places where you could actually
it it almost did it it does matter it
almost didn’t matter who you are it just
matter what you did to your teammates
right and
uh sorry I’m drinking some coffee here
so that was a uh you know Paris Island
is Paris Island people have gone there
they hate it they love it they hate it
at the time but they love it afterwards
right because it it literally forges you
into something different so I think
that’s why one of the best things I did
was J the Marine Coral it was painful it
was hard but it was great
and so I started college I continued
through the Marine Corp and I my my goal
was again you you you don’t never you
never
know where you going to end up so my
plan was that I’m going to graduate
college and I’m going to go be aore
officer and I wanted to go fly so that
was the plan and U so I was going to
this package to the processing I had got
my
citizenship and then you know Saddam
Hussein invades Kuwait um and uh I was
still a sergeant the Marines I had
mandad I was like you know they’re like
hey every is gotting activated so we
heading over to the desert like wait a
minute I’m going to be an officer
they’re like no you’ll be an officer
when you come back for now you you’re
heading over to the desert Sergeant so
so I’m going to Desert Storm as a
platoon Sergeant U did that and that was
you know the hype and the and you know l
i was a senior guy in the uh in the um
in the in the company I got we got
attached to a hospital company and I was
kind on the we have I don’t want to get
into the whole how the Marine cor does
um Medical but I end up in a medical
unit uh supporting the the doctors and
the cormen and you know all the sport
that goes to them um we came back in
June and I called the recuiter back up
and he said I don’t have any need for
any officer in the Marine Court this is
1991 the the wall had come down there
was a big draw down in the
military um and just so happens that um
the um NASA GED had a program called the
program for research and Engineering
space Technologies and I applied for
that and I got accepted to that and they
I paid for my masters NASA guard paid
for my masters and my doctorate and it
was at that during that um schooling I
took my very first class in Space
Engineering from a um guy who ended up
becoming the NASA administrator Dr
Griffin and I said that’s what I want to
do uh I want to be in the space business
uh so how sometimes a single point can
kind of change the trajectory that
you’re on right and after that that
that’s all I wanted to do right so end
up um getting the Masters there um and
uh at the same time he actually
encouraged and I started flying lessons
with him um Mike’s a great pilot U great
engineer excuse
me and off he went and he encouraged me
to apply to the astronaut
core and like ah M they don’t think you
know guys like to be the astronut and
and he’s like well how do you know you
your job is to apply so I did I didn’t
get accepted but I did get offered a job
down there to and that’s how NASA used
to do those things right I interview
four times U never quite made it U but
that’s why I ended up on that trajectory
through
NASA and the second time second
interview I had was in 2004 and and it’s
a long story but basically what it comes
down to is that the
uh that you know n has a database for
bone densities and as some of Asian
Heritage um our standard deviation is
not what they would like it to be so
just it was outside that number nothing
wrong with me but that just that just
that’s what just the fault there’s not
much you can do so when that happened I
said decided to come back that was come
back D I want to go back to engineering
and ended up in their research lab I had
friends from school that they were
working there and back in those days NRL
was building probably spacecraft every
30 months or so it was just it during
the time that you know we used to call
that you know it was a Chop Shop garage
and the time we had spent together these
friends and colleagues you know building
the formal cars and the solar cars and
all the stuff the Hands-On engineering
piece of that and was doing a lot of
that back in those days we were building
lot of lot of um technology
demonstrators so I end up coming there
and I just kind of worked there for a
long time and had a dual create in the
Navy too at the same time in the
reserves I joined the reserves so when
the when the Marine Corp said that you
know you can’t they don’t need anybody
and then gu was like hey you know what’s
your education I like well I’ve NR in
you know in um in mechanical I have a
masters in Aerospace like engineering
I’m like yes he goes I I need Killers
she go go talk to the Navy guy over
there so I went talk to the Navy guy and
he said hey yeah we need Navy has a a
direct missioning program what’s called
engineering Duty Officers so basically
your technical people if you look at the
Navy’s um 80% of budget in Navy spent by
Edo training but with the engineering
education so they end up you know in the
acquisition of of Naval platforms so I
became an Edo and that was a separate
career I had all throughout was able to
serve multiple deployments um from from
um um you know UAE to to yukam to pcom
to you know out in out in um Guam and
Marana trenches doing exercises sporting
all this stuff I really enjoyed it I
really enjoyed all the time uh in the
Navy and had kind almost had a kind of
like a dual career so that’s how I got
into space it was a single class that
changed that course because I enjoyed it
a lot and had a good teacher yeah
awesome so yeah yeah it’s um no it’s a
I’m just I’m enjoying you know thinking
about this this journey and and and
listening to uh sort of talk about the
beginning of it all and and I thought
you know we could uh and again you have
a rather impressive sort of publication
record here and I thought we could hop
uh into some of the different areas that
that you touched on you know obviously
leading up to what you’re doing now and
I thought a really interesting place
just because the topic is uh you know
kind of obscure and esoteric for most of
us but you know would be your 1997
dissertation um entitled panel flutter
suppression with active constrained
layer damping where um you know here
your uh is at a time which you talk
about uh in your PhD where where we’re
developing all sorts of interesting new
materials that are thin um that are
flexible and whether it’s missiles or
airplanes or space shuttles or whatever
the case may be um these do things to
and I had to learn a little bit about
Aero elasticity which a really cool
concept Life Sciences gu so I don’t run
into that term that often um but you you
know we got to think about as we get to
these novel materials what does that
mean for flight what does that mean for
vibration and shimmies and all the other
things we see in the movies um talk
about your PhD if you would a little bit
about how yeah so this is uh mid90s
right active uh smart material smart
structures is emerging technology at the
time um and it has application across
multiple domains right it applies to you
know anytime you have U so aasa City you
know the flutter flutter is a known
phenomenology right I mean there’s a
many test followers that that dealt with
that and when you look at our missiles
they tend to pretty be but a lot of
rockets are essentially exg eggshells
right they’re very very um um
structurally very thin you know the mass
fraction that term is called Mass
fraction right The more mass you have to
carry the the the the amount of mass
that is not useful is you always trying
to minimize that right so um you know
like I said in in the missile business
you have to have beefy missile because
you pulling High G’s and you you’re
maneuvering um very high G’s right uh so
that time be pretty beef you missiles s
to Mass fraction like 47 or something
like that means that 70% is propul is is
propellant and other things but 30%
being ends up being structured um in in
a in a missile but the rockets and some
of the other thinner ones ends up in the
up in the you know
9095 kind of things right so it’s it’s
mostly propellent so trying to come up
with and then and and flutter is is
critical during the transonic region
right that’s when this aeroelastic
instability happens when things
basically they fall apart um we have had
too much of that in the uh in the uh in
the in the missile and Rocket business
but airplanes that was a phenomenology
that was long held yeah and the cool
thing at the time was that these smart
structures and materials that were being
that are being that were evolving um how
do you apply these things uh AER elastic
materials Vis elastic materials to be
able to a sense the U detect the on
sense of flutter the the earlier you can
detect and suppress that the better off
you are
so and that was my disertation
essentially it was it was being able to
sense that immediately and these bastic
and pactic materials can actually has
both as a sensor and an actuator so as
soon you sense it you can RSE a signal
on it and apply it back in the opposing
directions to DET to detect to detect
and suppress the vibration uh and you
can essentially nip it in the bud so
that was my uh that was my dis
that was a long time ago I haven’t
thought through that in a long time uh
you know at the time I was working
standard missile company when I was
trying to do this um uh you know and I
was working with u actually I was a GW
but my advisor was Dr BOS at at Catholic
Q he waser in this area and he was
applying this stuff to you know rotary
Dynamics for for Supersonic and
Hypersonic flight and also in the
industry domain um that’s there too in
subing shells and in in subing structur
things like that so it was the uh the
advanced constra dampings what we called
it um so you constraining that the the
the amount of vibration that can that
instability that can then
propagate so yeah um yeah it’s a walked
on memory landan there I haven’t used it
much since then but not not you know but
it was uh no it’s again another
important piece of you know aerodynamics
and Aeronautical Engineering that we
have you know we had to solve at the
time and I know it’s just uh important
that you you know this was a piece of uh
again the the evolving puzzle so I I I
appreciate you sort of giving us the top
line on that one and you know what in
retrospect uh and since then SpaceX has
done this right the problem of of uh
Landing a rocket you know we did
consider because it’s inverted pendulum
problem which is a very hard problem in
control system engineering right it used
to be very hard problem in control
system engineering used to stabilize a
pendulum that’s upside down that’s
essentially what SpaceX does these days
and so does origin right that is a
technically challenging problem but they
solved it um and I I think as some did
talk about it like you know will it be
possible to you know do that as a
disertation but I guess they’re like no
you can’t do that and should should have
not listened to that but
anyways it’s done now yeah it’s done
deal now yeah so uh yeah so I did do
that but it was uh a lot of long nights
um lot of testing in the wind tunnels
and uh yeah it’s all good it’s all good
yeah so no no perfect the um so then
yeah I mean so a few years then go by
and then I think another really
interesting place uh on this memory lane
Journey um is in 20 2005 um and here you
know you’re at the NASA Johnson Space uh
center now and you’re publishing on
Rondevu and docking for space
exploration and again you know you point
out in this paper uh hey it’s
2005 uh we got a lot of things up there
that are not just the space station and
our shuttles there’s a lot of different
crafts uh many different countries and
we got all sorts of sensors and
mechanisms and thrusters and thinking
about autonomous uh docking um and if we
don’t do that right things go very bad
in space uh talk talk a little bit about
this time because you know 20 before now
we got a tremendous amount of stuff
flying around up there that needs to get
together and communicate and and merge U
talk talk about this era if you would
yeah so that that paper actually came
out of uh because uh I was a randev g
sky at NASA Johnson right trying to
trying to um learn more about that stuff
and going through the training Pipeline
and Columbia happens right and uh and
literally all flight
um operation Mission operations kind of
came to screeching Hall only thing that
was going up to State station was uh the
Russian so and the protons and littleit
of the HTV which was the Japanese and
the European vehicles that were going up
there so shuttle stopped flying and I
was a shuttle Revo guy uh at Nasa um
trying to be trying to be flight
controller s the mission control do
that but at the same time President Bush
had announced that we are going to have
exploration and and you know going back
to the moon and those kind of things so
start thinking through like you know
what how are we going to go do that what
are the problems that need to be solved
we have done this before you know we had
gone to the Moon we had done randevu in
space right the jam program the M
program and you know the Apollo program
you had to had that had to have the
problem solved to do that but to get
back to it uh we hadn’t done it from
that perspective in a long time right if
you’re going to go back to moon it’s not
going to be shuttle type platform it’s
going to be something that is going to
be more more of a kind of Back to the
Future kind of design and architectures
that are going to be going to enable
that and Mike mucha was my co-author so
we had a lot of time during that time to
think through the problem set that you
you would have to face uh and that’s
kind of was a Genesis of that discussion
then at some point like you know let’s
just write it all down and then we kind
of wrote it all down and uh again look
where we are now I mean almost 19 20
years later right so there are the
constellations have changed the the the
pro proliferated Leo you know the uh I
mean the amount of spacecraft and
satellites is just going up almost
exponentially and we talking about you
know lunar CIS lunar Ops and R docking
in in in in uh you know around Mars and
moon and and uh at uh at all the lrange
points um so that was kind of the
Genesis behind that that paper and that
discussion was to okay what are things
that we going to have to do autonomous
docking autonomous navigation you know
have to have enough trust in the system
that it will work every single time and
what are the underlying technologies
that need to to be developed to do that
um and in in many ways we are you know
we are there but there’s still a lot to
be done we still haven’t gotten to a
point uh in terms of a um you know being
a to refuel systems upgrade system
service systems right that is all being
done and it was fortunate for
me to leave NASA go to NRL and uh the
rsgs program the NL is working on
robotic servicing of us synr spacecraft
y one of the first jobs I had at the NRL
was to work on at that time there was a
program called Sumo it was spacecraft
for Universal modification of
orbits um it was essentially designed to
be able to reposition um you know either
either old spacecraft out of the way or
put them into places where they where
they can be more useful that was an
underlying technology that was under
development at the time um it was still
a dper funded project at the time um to
come back and work on that to to to help
mature those
Technologies um for the future of the
the space
ecosystem that um NASA calls it in space
assembly manufacturing and servicing do
Calla something a little bit different
uh but essentially it is the the model
of if you if you if you if your mind is
the naval model of of being able to go
out to you know go out to see for a long
time and have in the Navy we call them
tenders uh you know when ships you know
some have tenders all the time they have
you have really have ships that come
alongside and and fix things R ATC for
minor stuff right major stuff you have
to come back in right how do you
actually get into that kind of mindset
in the space domain because space domain
is one of the few places where we build
stuff we never go back and fix it yep
never go put gas in it never go back
upgrade it right so can you change that
whole model was what some the people at
at lab and the government were thinking
at the time this is you know early 2000s
right to be able to do that and those
are some of foundational technology so
that paper was kind of just just a a
result of two things one was thinking
through you know what the overarching
gance was from from press on down that
we are going back to the moon and we
actually had a lot of time too because
we are just doing we would do like
couple of simulations a week um and just
thinking through the problems that we
turn that we would have have to solve to
get
there yeah and then um you know
continuing along those lines because you
know you mentioned NRL um and and
obviously you know you spent a lot of
time there um thinking about uh well a
couple things um obviously the trend
towards now a lot of smaller satellites
uh which clearly we got a lot a lot of
them now and that guy musk putting a a
bunch of stuff up there in regard to
that but um this uh concept that you
published on called cognitive navigation
and uh and all the the the issues that
come into play when we have lots of
small satellites in terms of positioning
error correction um again you know I
think you were I read you were you were
re at the time collaborating with um uh
John Hopkins on this but again thinking
about um what happen sort of in this
ecosystem of small spacecraft where we
are now these details uh talk about what
cognitive navigation means and a little
bit of what was happening at NRL at that
time yeah so the couple of things were
happening this is uh so there was an
effort called initiative called
responsive space opportun responsive
space and part of that was being able to
to to use space more operationally right
which essentially comes down to a lot of
times we have you know you know I’m sure
you know that you know you’re doing
things tactically you’re doing things
operational level you do things as a iic
level right right operation was you know
how do you actually integrate space into
and that’s the a challenge today how do
you integrate space fully integrated
into the uh at the operational level
into the uh into our operation that we
do for National Security um you know we
know how to do operational you know
Maritime you know how ships get
integrated the fight how planes get inte
the fight how Marines and and army get
integrated the fight but how does the
space kind of come into that and what
are the right things to do that
um how the what’s the right way to
integrate that into it so there was this
whole initiative called or uh to look at
that all this stuff and there were many
aspects of that and one the aspects of
that is and I can give you a simple
analogy of this one is is uh is at least
in in my head is is you know we always
plan things um to do doesn’t matter what
it is you know even even there something
as simple and fundamental as a as a
patrol in the Marine Corp for example
you have a fire team that’s sound Patrol
you kind of have a mission to go explore
this area and and and you know see what
you find right let’s just as simple as
that but as you’re going on this Patrol
you may see or hear something right so
now you have to take whatever you’re
doing and go go investigate this
thing right that essentially is
cognitive navigation right if you think
about it you know you saw and heard
something that was not on your original
planning uh deck now you have to go
explore that St you have to make make a
decision at that time to say okay this
is something more important than that
whatever Mission I was on now I need to
go explore this stuff and see what it is
investigate that and if that’s maybe
more important than the original Mission
I was on I don’t know the answer to that
but you’re using cognition to make the
decision at the time you’re doing this
right now in space we don’t do that yet
right we have we are we are in orbit we
do nothing thing but if you see
something how do you actually decide
that you know the term is ATR autom
Target recognition so how do you get off
your original plan go off and do
something else that maybe more important
at a time and then get back to the plans
you own right that decision making that
we as human beings can do it all the
time we do it all the time right but how
do you actually start Building
Systems in the space domain that can do
that because if you look at the
challenge set that they have that we
have to face the timelines that are
needed to be to make these
decisions and and to to to detect these
things assess them inform somebody about
what it is so they can make a decision
to act upon that those timelines are
getting much shorter right so you need
to be able to have that cognition on
board the system and the platforms and
actually at the at the system level then
at the system ass system level right be
able to do that so you can coordinate
stuff right this may be again I can go
back to the very simple example of a
Marine Corps Squad that is doing that so
you may have to go back and tell the
rest of your fire team say hey by the
way I know we had this other Mission but
now important thing we need to focus on
right now for next whatever amount of
time then we’ll we’ll go back to the
original plan that we had right right so
that cognition that that we have done as
human beings for a long long time is not
it’s it’s getting there right with with
the Advanced Technologies um you know
the the the the machine learning
algorithms Genera AI artificial
intelligence right all the stuff is
getting there slowly but but the
integration is what is what’s critical
and that’s what what at least the
cognitive navigation aspect of that
that’s what that was awesome awesome
really cool yeah know I I I again I
appreciate you going into each of these
because I really want to outline you
know for the for the listeners you know
sort of the degree of of of where you’ve
been and the types of problems you’ve
been thinking about um what happens next
though um is you know you move from
research roles into I call more
managerial when when we get into some of
what you were doing at both uh iarpa and
and diu and and here you know you know
we’ve profiled some IPA guests in the
past and others in sort of the arpa
family and you know uh an amazing model
that you know we see propagated not just
in our government with things like arpa
H nowadays but um in in the in the
private sector too where people are
beginning to realize that hey you know
maybe we should give some of these
scientists the ability to to think and
work on stuff that doesn’t require a
product maybe right away uh and and
reduce the stress let them think on The
Cutting Edge um and then at
diu uh you’re you’re almost acting like
a venture capitalist there and and we
profiled the groups like f works and
Naval X and again the the component of
uh we don’t normally think about our our
defense department but you know
investing uh in the earlier stage
research investing in the private sector
and the collaboration on the defense
Tech front talk about some of these
experiences because I I think they’re
very important absolutely and for the
understanding that um we do a lot more
in our defense department than just you
know what we can eventually uh think
about in fighting the battles a lot of
important stem work on both these FRS
yeah so I I think those those
organizations get back to the
fundamental um human mindset right a
curiosity piece of that right what don’t
you know right there’s people that have
this desire to kind of see you know
always been like there’s lot that we
don’t know we just don’t know um only
know what we know so I think the arpa
type uh problem set and and there’s a
different scaling of that up and down
depending on where you are uh sometime
you kind of know up you know so
typically starts with a problem for at
least for the arpa side right you start
with a problem that you trying to solve
that if you think well you can solve you
can do XX and X right so you can you can
you can get after this problem set
you’re starting with a problem in those
in in the the arpa type uh uh and it’s
not just a simple problem it’s it’s a
it’s a vexing problem you know it’s a
dragon sling problem so to
speak and and you have to find the right
expert to to help solve that problem
right in the leadership role you you
just an enabler right you are the
facilitator and enabler to help people
do that thing but the challenge within
within those kind of organization is is
finding the right um mind that can
articulate the problem to be
solved and also break it down into
pieces so you can get after that and you
go look at some of the hardest problems
that have been solve that’s that’s the
approach to that that’s slightly
different it’s same but slightly
different than than than the diu model
right of Naval X or the Space X space
for small right there you are you’re
trying to see there you have a whole
bunch of people in the Silicon Valley in
the startup mindset in the Venture
Capital mindset that are trying to do
things new things right they are trying
to you know either new business model or
and if you go back and look at most lot
of these people they are not motivated
by money to a certain extent they just
want to focus on something that
important to them right that they see as
something that’s important and what
happens is um and I work for Prime now
what happens is that a lot of those
people don’t know how to kind of
effectively work with the government but
they are they are this they have this
mindset of solving the problem so Di’s
model was
is is a twofold model right one is how
do we engage with these uh entities to
understand what they’re working on and
help them educate how to kind of you
know work with the government and the
second piece of that is like educate the
people on the government side on what
these companies a problem that these
companies trying to
solve because you know the the the
the uh the large acquisition people in
the in in the dod they are not they are
not spending the time to go on and see
they’re they just don’t have that kind
of time to go on and and understand the
The Innovation VC ecosystem that’s out
there right so if you can’t take some
people with the right knowledge and
background and the mindset to go see
explore in this in this space again dius
that you know dug back We call we diu
3.0 now we kind of saw the utility
initially like d diu 1.0 Dix was that is
there something there to be done is this
an area that way we can explore and
leverage then help solve problems and
the answer was yes then that was kind of
di 2.0 bunch of projects were started
now kind they will claim that they are
du 3.0 that how do you actually now get
get after some the some of the bigger
problem set to leverage all of that and
and I I think if you go back and read um
go go back and look at history United
States is kind of unique in this um from
from a you go back you have to go back
to never Bush right when the whole this
government industry Academia mindset was
started right how do you actually
combine all three of these forward
leaning uh very
capable uh academics which we didn’t
have that many VC back then but there
was a lot of stuff that was getting done
in the universities right
right large industry that can do things
at scale right the the the you know the
what with north of gr and the lck and
Bings of today back then there’s a lot
more companies and certainly the
government who is trying to apply these
things for Prosperity
security um and uh you know the things
that the government is supposed to do um
I think I think there was a much tighter
combination a little bit maybe in the
50s 60s 7s from that I think from that
it slowly kind of had
kind of diverged a little bit and you
had a bunch of PS that were doing this
piece you some Academia that was doing
this piece but I think what these new
models have done is kind of reintegrate
the back end to a certain extent you
know we have expanded the fold of
pulling in these these these
adance Minds who are trying to solve
these problems and coming with you know
the the the silon Val mindset so to
speak if you go back and talk to some of
the old timers in Sil valy they’ll say
that Sil Valley was actually created by
the na for the uh during the during the
60s and 70s when you look at the uh you
know the the the Strategic and the the
nuclear Triad problems that they have to
solve you know you have to have rocketry
you had to have Electronics you had to
have structures right all the stuff was
kind of concentrated in that area um so
I think it’s just bring them back into
the fold to leverage all the knowledge
and expertise to get after some of the
problems that we have and hopefully do
it at a faster at a speed that’s F than
we have done in the past but things are
evolving faster than we have been in the
past so that was fascinating time uh
that a great way to kind of end my uh
Navy career at diu um and uh and now I’m
you know it’s uh I’m on the other side
to do this as scills the other piece let
me go back TOA for a second um you know
the I had never been on
the in the government side you know most
of my time at NRL was focused on you
know you are investing in some key
Technologies and hopefully you know you
can go get funding at some point to go
build those systems NL is is one of
those places that they call it a working
capital but essentially you are in a you
have you don’t have a budget to start
with you actually are writing proposal
to get the work that you’re getting in
so you have to have work that work that
you’re proposing has to be relevant and
and important enough the somebody is
actually willing to pay pay you for it
right so you’re getting strong funding
from places like DARPA or other
government agencies to do the work you
have to have a compelling sit compelling
proposition to solve a problem that is
critical right and you also have to kind
of you’re not allowed to compete with
industry but you also have to navigate
the stuff that there things that the
industry is going to solve for you but
there’s some problem that industry may
not solve for you but there strictly a
military or a Navy problem from a
technology perspective right that’s kind
of what the people at enal are focused
on um what are what is that if you were
to draw a VIN diagram
and and the circles don’t overlap right
there’s a problem set that doesn’t it
needs to be solved how do you invest in
those areas and those those
Technologies and you’re doing the same
thing that the VC is do to a certain
extent you’re bearing on some these
things that you know if you go after
that is there going to be a a right
solution and sometime it’s not sometimes
you know you put it on the Shelf say
okay that’s that’s not it you know let’s
just keep going so but you have to have
it’s a bottom up it’s a bottom up
approach to emerging problems and
emerging Technologies versus the top
down which is somebody write the requir
mat you go off and you build those
things M so so AA is one of those places
where they actually fund these kind of
things you have to have the the enough
understanding and our the director at
the time you know she was great at that
and the program officers and certainly
the office directors you always it’s a
constant cycle of you know um simple one
pagers problem set that you you’re just
getting them in and you kind of v
through those and you go to the next
Next Step you go next step okay this is
real let’s go let’s get after it right
so that was interesting from that
perspective and then there’s also the
money side of stuff right you on the
funding side of things versus the
receiving side of things so that was a
good experience from that
perspective yeah it’s I’ve always been
extremely impressed by all the all the
arpa related guests that I’ve hosted and
and sort of the you know not just the
breadth of the portfolios that they had
to manage but just the the depth of
their understanding of these these you
know emerging technology so no it’s
they’ve made for great shows um and um
you know I always enjoy Also seeing not
just what they do but ultimately where
they end up and and what they do next
and it’s always it’s equally fascinating
um but look here here you are I’m
talking about you you you were uh you
know pretty much leading Ira um a depy
So you you’re doing the in and down and
in stuff right and the director is doing
all the out and up and out stuff and
yeah but it it was fascinating because
the the mind and the ideas that you that
you see are just I mean it just I mean
it’s the whole Spectrum right and and
the you know wish there was a lot more
money to go do these things because you
know there there are some bad ideas but
majority of them are great ideas and
great problems that need to be solved um
but you know at some point you have to
you have to prioritize and and see which
one you can get after and sometimes
there are things that you just can’t get
to because tech technology is just not
there yet right so you have okay we’re
gonna wait for this one right yeah so
talk um J talk you know based on that I
mean and and and again yeah you um you
finish up this awesome as you said
37-year uh career of service uh now
you’re in the private sector at Northrup
uh again you know here’s a company that
sort of plays in all the domains that
you we’re chatting about in terms of
security commercial space continuing
thinking about
exploration um so looking in all
directions you got a cool title and and
you’re about the emerging Technologies
and architectures for the space sector
so it kind of I mean hopefully it sort
of sounds like you got a little bit of
uh aara type stuff you’re you’re doing
there in the sense that you’re allowed
to play and think about the emerging
stuff at the same time obviously I I
read about this uh northr bent NASA
James Webb Telescope deal that’s that’s
going on what are you working on today
that you can talk about obviously don’t
go into anything confidential but uh you
know talk a little bit about the future
and and where you’re uh thinking about
uh you know positioning some of these
Technologies and architectures in in in
the new system in the private sector so
I it’s the uh it’s the nor of does
things at scale right they don’t do ones
tw’s right so so it’s a whole
different uh level of uh scal that I was
I’m used to and also um and the other
primes do the same thing right they are
doing things you know the the key to
place like North or the lck the bo is
like they’re building not just one thing
multiple systems across right so if
you’re sitting on the the dod side and
you’re looking out you looking at
companies that can build things that
that should be integrated across the
different domains you know planes ships
tanks you know uh uh you know um
spacecraft uh cyber tools right it is it
is that five domain um all the five
domains that we are competing in with
the adversary so at least my approach to
this is there’s there’s three or four
things that you need to be consent of
when you when you’re trying to predict
the future because first of all it a
full errand um because you’re not going
to get it right but there are enough
Trends and and and and Telltale that you
you can be in the ballpark if you if you
have a wide enough
SWAT so the way the future evolves uh is
couple of things right you you you have
to pay attention to what’s going on
what’s emerging right what technologies
are being emerging right that is reading
the papers that’s reading the journals
that is paying attention to the
breakthroughs in science and
technology and what people are getting
the phds in you know what are the
emerging areas of of research right um
and my my old boss at at na research lab
used to say all the time nobody can feel
that lot of people lot of times people
use the term technical surprise and and
and I would say we have never had a
technical surprise we have had
operational surprise people have F the
thing faster than than than you thought
they were going to going back even to
Sputnik nobody knew nobody thought that
you can put a satell we were working on
the same stuff they just did Fast than
us right so sometimes it’s the speed
that you do it at that that’s more
important um but there was there were
plenty of Geeks in in the United say
that knew what you could do with a
satellite they just weren’t fast enough
we just weren’t fast enough you know
Russian were faster than than the Soviet
Union was faster than us right so if you
stay at the kind of kind of edge of uh
not
just our knowledge but human knowledge
right is it hard to get surpris so how
do you stay on top of those kind of
things what are the relent Technologies
and my focus is very limited too I try
to stay focused on on the on the space
things that are going to impact the
space domain only um there’s so much
technology especially in the synthetic
biology and all the other stuff there’s
so much going on uh it it is hard for
one person to stay on top of that but
there’s handful of things that I think
are relevant from from emerging
technology perspective in in the space
domain that we need to pay attention to
right uh so that’s one piece of that the
second piece of that is is also is to
look at how can you use the same things
differently uh how do you deoy them
differently uh and SpaceX is a great
example of that they have disrupted the
market um um because they they refus to
go with a model that had existed for a
long time right um it’s not new tech it
just it’s just a different way of
approaching that um technology and
others have done that in the past too
you’ve we’ve seen that happen in the
past and the third piece of this is like
you know what are the problems that we
are going to have to deal with in in
from National Security perspective um
you know what systems capabilities you
will have to overcome and Prevail um in
the future right so that’s kind of third
piece so when you kind of combine all
those three things together know what’s
up and coming how can you use it
differently what problems that you can
have to face that kind of is the Crux s
of my thinking or my job so to speak you
know when you put all those three
together
um you know what additional capabilities
are you going to need how are you going
to do this what is coming that you you
need to Leverage What and
and the days um when United States and
you know had the the edge for a long
long time because we had the libraries
we had the papers we had the
journals that you could only read here
that that that is gone the center of
knowledge is global at this point right
and slow shifting at Eastward so to
speak just because the sheer number if
you just look at the sheer
numbers and I have two sons at the Naval
Academy and every time I talk to Mid
shipment I always tell them you know
from knowledge perspective from
expertise perspective if you are going
to compete forget that military force to
compete at a global scale um every one
of you know you need to be better than
10 other ones right in in be China be
India again not not from Bad perspective
but just from just from sheer econ
economic scale perspec
right right because it’s just that that
knowledge base is now worldwide and
Global you can get to any anybody can
get to anything from everywhere and for
the long time we had that advantage that
only we could get to those kind of
things so I think how do you compete in
that environment now in the future um
not just from military perspective just
From isamic perspective to and you seen
some of that right so that’s that’s a
that’s that’s a that’s a bigger problem
that probably not going to solve here
but uh and and as as a technical guy to
me
um that
technology give you that
Advantage uh that if you can seize that
Advantage earlier you can capture Market
here you can capture you can have better
systems you can Prevail better in the
fight right so it kind of underpins a
lot of stuff again that’s that’s a
technal guys perspective not not I’m
sure if there’s Economist or somebody
else that they may have a different
perspective but I think the advances in
technology and you can go back
historically and see how societies and
and institutions that develop you know
key Technologies earlier if they
leveraged it earlier they were able to
do better than the others um that’s
going back to farming and hunting and
and the and the bow and the long bow and
and the mechanized Warfare right um
tanks submarines planes ships right if
you look at all of this stuff right how
not only from the military perspective
also from the economic perspective um uh
you end up better right so that’s why
I’ve stayed in the technical area I
believe it’s underpins our future and
our future Prosperity um not in the dod
but just broadly across and uh so that
that’s my my kind of perspective on this
S I mean other people may have a
different one but to me that stuff is
important so I agree geek and paying
attention to you know where these things
are going is important I think and how
do we leverage that so that’s kind of my
focus U it’s one thing to be uh be in
the military and doing things in the
whole different level of
uh commitment that you have on your kids
and and other young people that you care
about are going off doing their stuff so
and the other folks I like how do how do
we help them how do we make sure that
you know our future generation of uh um
naval officers army officers Air Force
officers SP for officers have the right
tools and Technologies um so they can uh
they can Prevail in the fight that the
other folks we have that I have
personally have my personal commitment
to that because just because of our kids
but uh yeah so that’s the motivation
there you know no it’s no it’s awesome
it’s awesome it’s um and again you know
it’s uh you come in Full Circle and you
know Academia public service down the
private sector and um you know it’s all
being connected so no I’m I’m I’m
excited for you and I yeah thank you
yeah I’m excited too this is great you
know it’s different but it’s uh I’m
getting used to the the commercial
sector it’s different but uh underlying
goal is the same right you know it’s all
problems GP one one other thing I want
to ask you and and you can you know I
guess this is not from a gr a northr
perspective but just again from your um
your experience for the last you know
couple decades with what you’re doing
you know I I you know you mentioned
before the nuclear Triad topic and um
you know you also you know we started
out our discussions in 1983 and I was
just pointing out the other day on in
one of my chats that um uh it was 1983
we just passed the 40th anniversary of
uh President Reagan’s um Star Wars um
SDI speech on TV and I remember this as
a kid uh growing up that you know uh he
was on there for whatever 20 minutes or
whatever it was talking about
hypersonics and directed energy and
particle beam weapons and all this stuff
it was was clearly decades ahead of its
time um
but as you’re pointing out you know
Technologies and all fronts have evolved
and I would just love to get your
thoughts from a 2024 World uh and again
this this can be not with the north of
hat on or a Navy hat on or you be with a
GP hat um your thoughts about that whole
sort of domain um and our need to be
superior let’s say um in it with the
2024 technology set um do we need to to
look back at that with sort of the world
we’re in today uh and think about some
of those tools that may have matured
that we should be playing around with
others would argue now we shouldn’t
militarize space to that extent um but
I’d love to get your just GP thoughts on
this I yeah I’m the shamin we have
um this is where the thoughts come down
to at least in in in my opinion in in a
nutshell please
um I’m not a big uh um I call it the
open carry concept um you know I’m not
a know gun nut or anything like that but
if you have you know when people have an
open carry when you have something you
know this is all Cowboys right sure
again not saying we need to be Cowboys
to this time like the deterrence piece
of this if if somebody believe
that that fight they’re going into is
they are not going to there’s no winning
there you may think twice about before
you do
something right so and then the question
becomes how much money are you willing
to spend to to have that right so the
back in those days the stio concept was
uh you know was essentially to break
their will so to speak that this is not
don’t play in this domain because you
are not going to
Prevail and I think from that point it
was successful right we develop bunch of
Technologies to do that um I was not at
NRL the the clementin mission was one of
the tech demonstrators for that that
went one of the Moon uh to what some of
those technologies that are important to
the to building those kind of
systems um so again how much how much do
you invest in that domain now if every
behaves properly and and is focused on
you know um that’s fine but you have to
have
a you have to have the
capabilities to be able
to go back to class we you know force
your will if you need to right uh yeah
so but we have to be able to defend our
systems we have to be able to um execute
if needed what needs to be executed to
Prevail in the fight right and how much
do you go into that I think that’s
probably where lot of the stuff is
coming from technologies have matured
there’s multiple ways to do this um
especially these days when you look at
fully integrated five domain fight you
know space I mean I was looking from a
speed of light perspective cyber space
air Maritime and terrestrial right right
if you look at those Speed Line
timelines for those in those areas I
mean you know that I mean we’re talking
millisecond seconds in the Cyber domain
maybe minutes to hours in the space
domain you know hours to half a day in
the in the a martime in the air domain
then days to weeks in the martime domain
and then weeks to months in the in the
in the testal domain right if you look
at from that perspective how do you
actually build systems and capabilities
that are integrated across all of those
all those domains to be able to do the
job that has to be done uh if you’re
going to be able to defend and or or
project power um to to
stop um things that are not in a
national interest I guess I’ll say that
right Y and then they then at some point
becomes a collective National interest
also not just not just United States but
our allies Partners uh from from
economic perspective from Prosperity
perspective right so um how how do you
protect their way of life so to
speak that’s kind of that that that I
know that’s at a big level at a high
level but you know that I I I I um you
have the experience in all these domains
and I I wanted your you know you’re
you’re Top Line and I app I appreciate
that because again I I uh it was it’s
always I’m a life scientist guy so I you
know I just look at I think laser beams
are cool but you know thinking back when
I was a kid I’m like damn you know this
is is uh is one extra step that could uh
stop nuclear Annihilation hey we need to
develop these tools I just remember I
remember watching the thing on TV back
in 1983 it was like Wow but no I I
appreciate I I appreciate you giv it and
life science is another one right the
biology is another one right that that
we need to be you know there’s a lot we
don’t know and understand in there yeah
on those area that is that is vastly
misunderstood sure sure right and and
and it’s a it’s a rich and that’s why
it’s great to see things like Ry now
right to get after some right so so yeah
absolutely yeah yeah um JY one one other
thing while we have you today and I I do
really appreciate your time um you know
we you’ve taken us into Aeronautics and
astronautics and mechanical engineering
and National Security um coming back to
you though uh one thing I did not
mention um along this journey uh of
everything you’ve been doing is that I I
hear that you are really good at at
running really long distances um and
talking about the life sciences and
human potential um would love to hear a
little bit about how you got into Ultram
marathoning and ultr running and if
you’re doing any races coming up uh I
I’ve I I just did the gunpowder H so I’m
not really good at it just so you know
just to be clear not really good at it
at least you try at least I try so this
this is I weing this is a life sciences
topic so to speak right so I I I I tried
read a
lot and and
supposedly if you’re running and once
you start burning you know your your
energy and it clears your mind as and I
read I can’t remember where it was that
the reason that happens is that back in
the back in the time when we were hunter
gatherers your sense senses become more
acute when you’re running on on
Hunger because you’re you you want to be
to detect and see go back to cognitive
navigation now right you want to be a
sense and hear things right so that kind
of explains the reason I I run and the
reason I do these things is because it
literally clears my mind absolutely
clears my mind uh after you know 20
minutes into it your mind is as clear as
it can be um there may be other ways to
do this but for me that’s that’s kind of
what it
does um and I was been a road running
kind of guy um as I mentioned earlier we
have two sons that the Naval Academy and
my older one did a
50k and then he wanted me to do
something with him I was like I’m not
doing a 50k so we agreed on a 25k uh so
I did that and bunch of his buddies did
it with me uh we all did together uh of
course they beat me I mean I’m almost
you know as old as three of them put
together but uh um so you know we we G
probably you know keep doing these
things but sayy you’re out of nature uh
love being nature one of the things my
wife and I love doing um this is
different topic is right now it’s morale
season so we go hunting for Morales in
the woods nice and so in in a bad day
it’s it’s a walk in the woods on a good
day you have a bunch of morals um so
there’s no downside to it right um so
just being out of Nature and and and and
trying to do this and and the other
reason I like these Ultras is because
they’re cheap and you you don’t have any
swag so you’re not collecting buch of
stuff and uh they’re they’re cheap to to
sign up and it’s they’re not crowded and
it’s just just out of the words on the
trail just just you know walking slash
running um just slow nobody’s nobody’s
trying to win these things people are
just trying to complete these things so
which is a different mindset so it’s
it’s it’s good it’s it’s a good grind uh
makes you think and uh clears your mind
y
well like everything you’re doing and
and especially in the new uh uh the new
part of your career I wish you the best
with it I I’ll be on the side of I’ll be
on the side of the track ring you on um
I don’t think I ever I make come up to
Philly yeah do what in Philly let me
know I I’ll up here and I’ll watch and
I’ll feel the enjoyment of doing it but
no it’s it’s really great stuff G and
just again um uh I I it’s very
impressive career uh I I wish you the
best with um what you’re doing next
because it sounds extremely exciting and
in this new chapter uh of where you’ve
been um and just yeah I mean it’s an
awesome story um glad we had the
opportunity to share it here uh again
for everybody that’s going to be
listening to our show and this episode
across uh the various podcast networks
or watching on our YouTube channel uh
you’ve been spending time with the
amazing uh Captain Dr garta Sandu uh
director emerging technology and
architectures in the space sector at
north of and um GP I want to thank you
for taking the time out of your schedule
to to talk to us to tell your story and
educate us on what you’ve been up to
obviously thank you for what you do and
your long service and your your son’s
Service uh to the United States and as
we’ like to say on our show you know
thanks for having help create a better
tomorrow and our case a safer tomorrow
for all of us via what you’ve been up to
um really a great story wishing you the
best and look forward to staying in
touch thank you thanks for having me and
last thing I say is that this story is
only possible in the United States
nowhere else that’s thank you
Captain (ret) Dr. Gurpartap “GP” Sandhoo, Ph.D. is Director, Emerging Technologies and Architectures – Space Sector at Northrop Grumman ( https://www.northropgrumman.com/space ), where he is focused on leveraging new and emerging technologies and manufacturing process to shape the future of civil and national security space.
Dr. Sandhoo previously served at the Defense Innovation Unit ( DIU – https://www.diu.mil/ ) at the Pentagon, a United States Department of Defense organization founded to help the U.S. military make faster use of emerging commercial technologies, supporting that organization’s space portfolio, focused on operationalizing commercial space technologies for national security space. He also served as Deputy Director of the Intelligence Advanced Research Project Activity ( IARPA – https://www.iarpa.gov/ ) support the director in the day-to-day management of the organization, and execution of the diverse portfolio of high-risk, high-payoff research programs to tackle some of the most difficult challenges of the Intelligence Community.
Dr. Sandhoo previously occupied the Distinguished Visiting Professor Robert A. Heinlein Endowed Chair in Astronautics at the U.S. Naval Academy. At the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory, he headed the Spacecraft Engineering Division, and was also the acting director of the Naval Center of Space Technology. He provided executive direction and technical leadership in conducting research of space systems with advanced technologies. He was also a flight controller at NASA’s Johnson Space Center, and was a research & development engineer at Johns Hopkins University’s Applied Physics Laboratory, as well as in industry.
Since 1986, until recently retiring from public service, Dr. Sandhoo served in uniform in the U.S. Marine Corps and the U.S. Navy and as a Captain in the U.S. Navy Reserve as an Engineering Duty Officer. He holds a Bachelor’s degree in mechanical engineering from the University of Maryland, a Master’s degree in electrical engineering from Johns Hopkins University, Master’s from the U.S. Naval War College, a Master’s and a Doctorate in Aeronautics and Astronautics from George Washington University, and is a MIT Seminar XXI fellow.