I originally assumed the biggest innovation in electrification would be batteries.
But after reading more about EV systems and renewable energy, the electrical hardware
connecting everything together seems just as complicated.
Converters, inverters, switching electronics, grid interfaces. There are a lot of components
involved just to move electricity around efficiently.
And every conversion step introduces some inefficiency.
Now I am wondering whether these systems are already close to their efficiency limits or if
engineers still see room for improvement.
The deeper I read about electrification the more complicated the electrical side looks
byu/subZER002 inenergy
Posted by subZER002
8 Comments
That’s a better question for electrical engineers.
But coal/oil/gas power plants are way, way, way less efficient. The transmission/distribution lines have known inefficiencies that can be planned around. By the time you get to the EV, heat pump, etc. additional losses are pretty minuscule.
Solar and wind have their own set of inefficiencies, but their advantage is that their operating costs are almost zero, with some occasional tune ups once a year or so. You can spread that capital cost over 10 years with a loan from a bank, and let it run almost on pure profits for an additional 15 years. Meanwhile, a conventional power plant has to be constantly fed new fuel to work, and it has seriously complex maintenance procedures.
Oooh
I suppose you are completely up to speed on say designing class A and class B, amplifiers virtual ground, grid forming inverters, and stochastic analysis of what the real supply paramters of a largely PV and wind powered system are, and how much pumped hydro and seaonal hydro can fill inthe alregr gaps while batteries deal pretty much only with the events that happen a hundred+ of time per year…
and then having found the real size of the problem that is left, investigated via sensitivity analysis what the round trip efficiency of synthetic fuel energy stroage system powering peakers can deliver.
Because it would only be after knowing that you would be in a storageposition to quantify a wet finger guess on how the efficiency of the operation of the components impacts the final average price per MWH.
So I am wondering
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“And every conversion step introduces some inefficiency.”
whiel that is 100% true of every system that exists… hence it is vacuous/meaningless statement
Were there any steps where you thought the inefficiency was going to cause a problem for the total system cost per MWH. TBMK all the analysis I have seen show no such problematic inefficiencies inthe already existing tech. I do agree very few people seem to know how the systems will work, and rather a lot have done doubt casting about how they will or can work.
What I have not seen is anyone with a supported by facts and engineering problem withe designs that have been mooted by say AEMO in the ISP.
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The followign statement appears o assume the efficiency that already exists is an actual problem, but so far you have not even indciated which efficiency you claim is problem that needs improving.
>Now I am wondering whether these systems are already close to their efficiency limits or if engineers still see room for improvement.
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So I am wondering why you claim without even specificity that there is some efficiency problem that **requires** solution or improvment.
Note the distinction between **requiring** an efficiency improvement and the always nice to have efficiency improvement that might make our already good enough system betterer.
That more efficiency in every system on earth, would be nice,
The implication there is some problem if we don’t improve efficiency is so far fact-free.
There are some improvements coming, tho how well they’ll pan out I dunno.
Solid state transformers can deal better with power coming both ways.
High voltage direct current lines can have lower losses.
Cooler coatings can allow the same line to handle higher wattage.
Probably lots more.
The main issue with the grid tho isn’t technological, it’s siting/permitting. Just like with power generation, getting permission to build seems to be a bigger challenge than the building itself or the technological constraints.
Congestion is a major problem. Just because there’s a connection between point A and point B doesn’t mean point A can send energy to Point B. If the lines are already at capacity, they’re at capacity. Many markets don’t build congestion into pricing.
I’m not deep inot this stuff yet, but so far locational marginal pricing appeals to me. (It’s done in a number rof US grids.)
To deal with the permitting issue, I think we need to combine some right of way/imminent domain laws with some compensation to jurisdictions. (Paid directly from ratepayers.)
Making gas out of crude has it’s complications as well.
Far from it. The electrical grid is said to be the largest and most complex machine. Significant modernization and improvement is needed. There are many new Grid technologies like solid state transformer, power lines, switching gear, monitoring systems and yes AI controls that can greatly improve the grid capacity and efficiency. It’s a major area of investment in the US and the world. creating 100s of thousands of new jobs.
Thermal generation, burning fuel to turn a generator has limited efficiency. Using the waste heat would help. Space heating and cooling homes could be more efficient with better insulation. The grid is pretty efficient.
The easiest way to compare EVs vs ICEVs is the cost per mile of the fuel. EVs cost 3-8 cents per mile. ICEVs cost 13-17 cents per mile. These costs represent the amount of work/labor/resources to provide the vehicles with the energy they need.
Internal combustion engines are inefficient and complicated. As is the process to extract, refine, and transport oil.
EVs are incredibly efficient. Natural gas can be easily piped to the power plants. Large scale steam generation is more efficient than lots of small internal combustion engines.
Power conversion has become incredibly efficient. Solar inverters convert DC to AC at nearly 99% efficiency. Silicon carbide and gallium nitride MOSFETs are improving rectification efficiency. While it’s true that conversion introduces losses, they pale in comparison to the losses seen in thermodynamic systems (e.g. burning fossil fuels).