Bitcoin vs Ethereum / Solana / Sei – Who wins?

Jay Jog is the Co-Founder of Sei Labs. Sei is the fastest Layer 1 blockchain, designed to scale with the industry. In this conversation, we talk about the evolution of the L1 landscape from Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, to Sei, various tradeoffs, use cases, what the L1 landscape looks like in the future, and what Sei does.

TIMESTAMPS:
0:00 – Intro
0:32 – L1 landscape
5:24 – Parallelization
10:14 – Tradeoffs
13:49 – Use cases
18:24 – Education
21:16 – Financing
24:30 – The future
29:06 – Biggest risk

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Uh we’re a Silicon Valley team like me and my co-founder we both grew up in the B area and one of the core ethos of Silicon Valley is to build things that customers want to solve problems that customers have something that we Tred to stay away from is over engineering for

The sake of building cool technology which I think is like really common in crypto interestingly um there’s a lot of projects out there that are building pool tech for the sake of building pool Tech the the problem that you really want to solve is what are the existing

Problems with the user experience right now and how do you improve those all right guys bang bang I’ve got Jay here uh Jay I thought a great place to start this conversation is around the evolution of l1s if we go all the way back to you know 2008 2009 Bitcoin

Really was the first layer one and it came out and it was the idea and promise of becoming electronic money I think for the most part people are very excited about Bitcoin it’s still kind of the king when you look at market cap dominance Etc but vitalic boan and

Others said hey Bitcoin can’t do everything and what if we take the idea of this blockchain layer one and we add in smart contracts and we got the rise of ethereum and kind of everything that happened on that platform since that day there’s been an explosion of interest

And development of l1s say which you’re co-founder of is one of those kind of l1s that’s really going after this and so can you help us understand like how do you look at the L1 landscape and its Evolution from the launch of Bitcoin and ethereum to maybe what it looks like

Today yeah I mean honestly I think so far there have just been three major chains that really matter um the first one is obviously Bitcoin as you mentioned and I think it was really interesting because that helped kind of unlock this idea of a blockchain um before then this kind of like

Distributed ledger to solve this kind of problem no one had really thought about solving it in the same way um so I think that was the first kind of major unlock um the second thing that happened was ethereum introduced this idea of a um basically a turn complete State machine

Like people are able to write smart contracts that in theory are able to do anything the only limit itation around that are this component this concept of gas um which kind of make it a quiter and complete uh virtual machine and I think that was like a major unlock

Because it allowed you to build anything that you wanted to on top of the state machine itself um I think since then there’s only been one other major unlock uh which is in my opinion salana um and what salana really did is it helped make crypto accessible for everyone um

Through building really high performance infrastructure and the reason that high performance infrastructure is important is because when you make a lot of the optimization that Tana did um for example by supporting paralyzation it helps do two things um the first is it makes gas fees much cheaper so it makes

It much easier for people um to access the state machine during periods of higher congestion like on ethereum if you’re spending like $100 for transaction fees you end up excluding most of the global population from using it um in salon’s case it’s much cheaper

Than that so I think that is one side of it and the other side of it is just the type of activity uh specifically the type of decentralized application that you’re able to support um it’s very restricted on ethereum L1 and I think building this high performance infrastructure um really allows you to

Explore different design spaces as developer so it allows for fundamentally new types of application to get built so that’s where we’ve been so far um the question then is like what direction is the industry moving in uh going forward so I think there’s been a lot of

Different types of um things that people experimented with um I mean we’ve seen different experiments with people trying to build these share security type of l1s for example like book do Cosmos hubell um their ones um I think there’s also been people experimenting with different consensus mechanisms while

Still offering similar types of virtual machines um and there’s also been folks that have been trying to just build new virtual machines entirely uh for example the movie ecosystems um in terms of what I’m seeing right now I think there’s essentially a couple of core things um

The first is is that the evm is here to stay uh the evm is what kickstarted a lot of the activity that we’re seeing on chain right now and it’s really difficult to uh to replace the aeral machine and the biggest reason for this is that there’s already a ton of lockin

Um to the evm because it’s not just a piece of technology it’s more of an ecosystem and everyone that builds on top of the evm um they’re essentially not only getting that technology but they’re also getting that entire ecosystem of users existing applications other developers um liquidity so it

Becomes really difficult to replace that uh the question is then like what is missing from the evm right now well if you look at ethereum L1 um it’s not very scalable and if you look at like the ecosystem of rollups around it as well like you’re not really able to get more

Than like 30 to 50 transactions per second um which is really low by the standard of what applications really need um so if you kind of look at it that way there’s this pretty big design space where if you’re able to scale the evm um then you’re going to really help

Unlock the kind of things that I talked about to Solana except on a much larger kind of um skill and that’s exactly what we’re targeting with sa2 right now um we want to build the first paralyzed ubm and by doing this we’re going to be able

To get the both uh best of both ethereum and Salo um with support for the evm while also having this really high performance infrastructure so there’s a couple of things that I think maybe will help for us to clarify for the audience the first first is um paralyzation how would you

Describe that to like a 5-year-old right what exactly is that people keep hearing about it there’s like oh this is the new thing that’s coming what is that and why is it so important in terms of taking the best from some of these other chains for say

V2 yeah yeah so perhaps not maybe an Eli 5 explanation but maybe like an Eli 10 explanation um the way that computers or so if you look at the Ean virtual machine right now the way way that it works is if you have 100 transactions let’s say each transaction would be like

Me trying to send you money you trying to send someone else money um if you have 100 transactions they’ll all get run one after the other so this is really simple like it’s really easy for software Engineers to um write software that’ll handle this um the issue is that

It’s not performant so Modern Hardware like the phones that people might be listening to this on laptops that they’re listening to this on um they have multiple cores and they’re able to support multiple work streams at the same time so like if someone um I guess any kind of application that they’re

Using right now there’s going to be multiple things running on their laptop for example um so I mean if you think about it like there’s already this Modern Hardware that is capable of doing more so it’s kind of silly That We’re Not Making use of that to enable um

Better performance for blockchains I think Solano is really the most successful example of this so far of being able to use multiple cores to be able to get better performance um the ethereum virtual machine like if you look at the evm lens Cape no one is

Doing this right now and I think there’s a couple of issues like a couple of reasons for that um the first reason is just that it’s really complex to build it up um there’s also things that like trade-offs that come with that in terms of like increased state so then you need

To think about how to account for this increase dat um but we think these are all solvable problems so we fundamentally think that the evm needs to become paralyzed and when you’re able to do that you’re able to get a 100x Improvement in throughput so it just end

Up it really does end up being a step function improvent on the evm so before we get deeper into kind of what say and say V2 is um one of the narratives which I think are very important uh across the crypto ecosystem that has been uh becoming more prevalent

Is that uh all of the altcoins and other chains are R&D for Bitcoin Bitcoin is going to create l2s side chains a variety of different approaches but you’re going to be able to issue some of the coins uh do many of the same tasks

ET ET on top of Bitcoin in some form or fashion um it looks like there is at least developers that are trying to do it what is the big difference in your mind as to why things like this can’t be built on top of a Bitcoin regardless of

L2 side chain Etc versus having to go build something that’s new whether it is salana say or or some other uh approach yeah that is definitely an interesting question I mean so I I think the most fundamental reason is that each piece of technology is created for a very specific type of

Use case and trying to add a new functionality on top of that it’s essentially trying to fit like I forget the phrase over here um fitting a square peg into a round hole um you can make it work it might be functional from an engineering standpoint um but it’s not

Going to be the best type of um product that gets built it’s also not going to be offering the best type of user experience so I mean if you kind of take a step back uh we’re still con value team like me and my co-founder we both

Grew up in the B area and one of the core ethos of Silicon Valley is to build things to customers want to solve problems that customers have and something that we Tred to stay away from is over engineering for the sake of building cool technology which I think

Is like really common in crypto interestingly um there’s a lot of projects out there that are building Cool Tech for the sake of building Cool Tech I’m sure you can probably think of probably a half dozen on the top of your head um and yeah I mean it just seems

Like it’s the the problem that you really want to solve is what are the existing problems with the user experience right now and how do you improve those and the most clear problem that we’re seeing from the ux right now um is everyone is using the evm there’s

These limitations in the evm in terms of gas cost and in terms of the design space the developers have so let’s really focus on improving that because that’s what’s going to cause the biggest deck function change um for improving um dbn so when we then go and we look at

What SE is doing there’s a lot of techn teal tradeoffs right and we can almost evaluate this maybe as like what do you think ethereum got right got wrong what do you think salana got right got wrong and then what do you all doing in terms of these decisions and how are you

Thinking about tradeoffs around security transaction throughput Etc to come up with what you think is kind of the the best you know mix of the ingredients if you will to really serve users yeah so in terms of what ethereum did right um as I was mentioning before they like

Introduced this idea of a turn complete virtual machine um so that’s a really complicated way of saying that like you’re able to build stuff on top of the virtual machine and you can build it however you want to there’s not going to be any limitations in terms of the types

Of functionality that you’re able um to support so this really I I think was a major major kind of new introduction um because being able to try smart contracts in this decentralized way um it really expands the design space of what people are able to do um the thing

That I don’t think ethereum got right uh was they didn’t really build it with scaling in mind um from the get-go like the focus was not to support um much higher amounts of activity happening on the network I think they had long-term plans for like okay we’re going to be

Supporting execution charting right now they’re looking into um a rollup Centric future but when they were initially launching I think that wasn’t really a core Focus point of theirs um which I mean to be fair I think that is definitely the right way of building um because when they initially launched

There was not really an example of a train complete virtual machine either um that was used on a blockchain so I think they were really trying to focus on that initially um what I think salana did right is they were able to help scale um a blockchain to be able to support

Greater throughput um what I don’t think that they like what I think they should have done instead of supporting the svm is trying to use the evm and then making it backwards compatible um so people can take existing L1 smart contracts from ethereum deploy them to solo with no

Code changes and if they had done something like that I think it would have resulted in a much more seamless developer experience much more seamless user experience and it would have resulted in kind of a much um uh easier time uh for people to both build and uh

Use Solano so that’s why I think that opportunity in the middle of being able to take the evm and helping scale it in the same way that’s laed it um that is quite significant so in terms of the trade-offs with an approach like that um I think the biggest issue that comes up

With paraliz is it leads to increase state so what is state right um state is all of the balances um that are there uh for both uh normal accounts so this would be like I have 10 say you have 20 say um and this would also be all smart contract

Balances um so all smart contract State um so like this Unis swap smart contract has um these pools and this is the kind of information tied to those pools so there’s like this idea of the state tree which is used to compute the state hash um and you basically need to keep this

Entire state tree uh on each of these validator nodes to be able to compute the state hash and when you have more transactions that are coming in this leads to more state that gets created um which then leads to a couple of different issues uh the first is State

Storage like it just becomes much more difficult to store the state especially if you want to have lower node requirements um and then the second issue that comes up is it becomes quite difficult ult to start running a new node um because if you’re trying to sync

Like 100 gabes worth of data while there’s new blocks that are being processed at the same time um it adds an additional complexity so there’s a ton of work we needed to do from the state side um to be able to better support uh easier uh stage things and better State

Storage as well and so what is now going to be possible talking about applications or use cases that you all see really kind of driving right so I’m a developer I’m looking at all these different uh opportunities to go build uh on top of what could I possibly be

Doing that would make me lean more towards building on sa versus maybe somewhere else today’s episode is brought to you by espresso the maker of the world’s thinnest portable display now listen up if you’re like me you feel like you are at a command center when

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Out there right now um they’re basically all evm developers and anecdotally speaking um like I’ve been through this process before of like talking to evm developers and um just seeing what their thoughts are about moving to New ecosystems um evm developers do not want to go to new ecosystems um one reason

For that is there’s like this idea of ethereum alignment where they don’t really want to go to a new ecosystem because of that um but there’s also this idea that like new ecosystems have their own quirks I’m already familiar with the evm and if I try to build something in a

New ecosystem let’s say I write something and move um and I make even a small bug then my entire contract can just get drained my entire project can just die because of this one small bug so it’s a really SC scary kind of um proposition for them to move somewhere

Else so EVMS or developers they’re primarily attached to the evm right now um and if you think about it that way like the these Engineers they are basically limited by what the evm is offering them so I was mentioning before um if you look at the landscape of evm

Chains um mml1 rollups as well you can’t really get more than 50 TPS so this leads to anti patterns that developers need to use to build applications on the evm um one example of this would be an automated Market maker um if you look at traditional financial markets there’s

Not really a concept of an amm um because it’s not as capital efficient um and it has a bunch of other uh downsides as well um in traditional financial markets you would see people using order book exchanges right um the reason that people can’t build order book exchanges

Is because you can’t really support that on the evm so what say fundamentally unlocks is any type of use case Beyond 50 TPS um right now the entire the landscape is quite small in terms of what it can support if you’re able to remove that 50 TPS bottleneck and expand

It to be higher um the design space for developers just changes fundamentally um a few examples that I can think of off the top of my head right now of applications that you could start to see um one of them would be like just fully onchain orderbook based exchanges um

Another example would be a game where you have every single action that is happening um getting written on chain instead of only having some kind of token movement um that ends up occurring on chain um another example would be some kind of social application where every single activity that the user

Engages in like every single like comment whatever retweet um all of that and all their metadata also getting stored on chain so I think it really results in a lot of different things that you can actually have be verifiable um on chain instead of needing to have

Most of it just be stored off chain and then uh trying to really just store like maybe token transfers or something on CH let’s talk a little bit about uh kind of the the organization building on top of the technology right you can build great technology but you still have to do some

Other things um how are you all thinking about going in educating people in terms of developers and explaining to them how they can use this uh what’s been working so far and are there one or two things maybe that people are building on top of it that you’re like yeah this is a

Perfect example and and we would love to you know just get a hundred more or 200 more of uh these types of projects on top of the chain yeah so I mean say V1 went live on August of 2023 so this was around 6 months ago um and initially there wasn’t

Actually that much activity that was was happening on the chin um then afterwards The sav2 Proposal got put out in November of 2023 so a couple of months ago um and I think that really stuck a chord um with the community and since then on cv1 there’s been a ton of

Activity uh that has started to happen um if you look at the stuff that’s already happening on sav1 um I think it falled under largely three buckets um one of these buckets was inscriptions so initially there started to be a ton of inscriptions activity on say and I think

This is true for all other ecos systems but in the case of say there was no outage or like downtime that happened um because the chain was just able to handle that kind of throughput that we were seeing um since then I think inscriptions activities largely died

Down and now we’re starting to see more nft activity um and more kind of token projects that are launching um and more trading activi that’s happening so right now on sav1 a lot of the activities side to um people that are trading on chain um in terms of sav2 the kind of

Developers so I mean first of all in terms of like the value proposition um for developers I think it’s very straightforward like every single developer that I’ve talked to has basically just understood it uh the idea of being able to offer greater throughput um with the evm it makes

Sense to Developers for multiple reasons like especially evm developers they’ve gone through the process of like using eel1 and paying gas fees over there so from more of the normal user standpoint it is just fundamentally different and it’s a 10x improvement over there um and also from the actual uh building

Standpoint you’re able to support um as I was mentioning different types of applications so developers become excited about that idea as well um in terms of new projects that are going to get built on say as a result of this um we’re seeing two things happening one is

Blue chip projects from ethereum um are actually just straight up reaching out to us about deploying instances on sale so this would be like a project on ethereum that’s already launched on ethereum L1 and is also going to be launching an instance onay um I think that’s definitely exciting because it

Results in existing their applications being able to get cheaper gas fees and allowing different types of um activities for their users um and we’re also starting to see more homegrown applications homegrown in the sense of people that are just dedicated completely to sit um they’re launching their own in-house kind of applications

So maybe we could talk a little bit in terms of the um financing like you guys raise some money token goes live how do you think about value acrel right in terms of private markets public markets um and the holder base obviously with the Bitcoin ETF getting approved people

Are excited because institutions and kind of bigger funds are coming into the space just talk a little bit as to like how you thought about funding the business until now and then who do you think is actually holding the token Etc in the market yeah yeah so in terms of

I’m associated with Saabs um Sal laabs is the open source development company in terms of I mean how we rais money we initially raised money we had our seed round in that we announced in August of 2022 um this was led by multi-coin capital and this was and honestly right

After the collapse happened um so it was definitely not an easy time um to be raising back then as I’m uh sure you can kind of empathize with um but we were super happy to get multicoin around the table um I think they’ve been offering a ton of very thoughtful advice in terms

Of um just building infrastructure um since then we uh raised a series a um that was announced in April of 2023 uh so some of the biggest checks in that round were um jump distributed Global and there are several other partners that were around the table there as well um afterwards

August of 2023 is when sa Foundation uh helped have the distributed launch um for the say Network and yes say Network so say is an L1 blockchain um it’s a proof of state blockchain so there’s a token that is associated with that and similar to like Salon or ethereum um the

Types of use cases would be largely the same um so one of them would be to help uh secure the network so you’d be able to STI it with the network um another example would be for governance so to be able to vote on any proposals to come in

Um another use case would be for transaction fees um but I think one thing that’s really interesting about a chain like say where there’s a lot of trading activity that’s happening um is there ends up being a lot of Meb like I was looking at a a flip side dashboard

For me recently like me on say and there’s already been millions of dollars of me ons which is kind of wild like there’s just a ton of whenever there’s a ton of trading volume it results in lot of um opportunities for me and I mean for any listeners that might not be

Familiar me is the value you can acue by changing the ordering of transactions within a block so either by having one transaction go before another having a transaction go after another or potentially including or excluding transactions from a block um so I mean there’s several different types of me

But um the core idea is that there is some value that gets created and if you’re able to set up a redistribution framework where that value gets redistributed Ed to uh the chain itself so for example to people that are staking on the network um then it

Becomes a very effective way to longtime monetize the network um instead of needing to have inflation for the network um because inflation isn’t really the best approach necessarily like you want there to be some amount of inflation but trying to subsidize every single validator every single node operator on the network through

Inflation um isn’t necessarily the best approach but if you have some kind of more sustainable value cruel mechanism such as me um then that does result in a much more long-term sustainable Network how do you think about the future in terms of say you know you guys

Have V2 what does this look like in five or 10 years is it a winner take all and say is the the king of you know got a smart contracts and and evm Etc um is it win or take most and maybe there’s three or four winners or do we have this like

Plethora and there’s you know 5,000 different platforms that people are all building on top of and maybe in each one of those scenarios like where to say fit it yeah so I mean first of all in terms of what we have um how we think about

Say uh right now we think there’s a massive disconnect between web 2 and web 3 like if you go and try to do something in web 2 it’s really simple from a user experience standpoint and every single part of the process has largely been optimized so far um if you try to do

Something on web 3 that is definitely not the case like it’s a much more comtent process um so the world we imagine in a few years ideally is one where as a developer um if you try to build something on Say it’ll offer the same type of developer experience as

Building it in a web 2 fashion um and from user standpoint we ideally want the user experience to be identical um to that at building in web 2 so I mean we want to just completely bridge that Gap in terms of how we see the landscape um

Kind of moving in the longer term uh I do think it’s going to be a win or take most markets uh win or take most market and I think there’s going to be two different types of um infrastructure that ends up existing in the future there’s going to be a small number of

General purpose chains that end up having a line share of the activity um currently these are chains like is the rml1 and Salo um in the future uh if we’re able to see a lot of the stuff that I mentioned playing out in terms of more developer activity happening as a

Result of sav2 uh one of these uh bigger chains uh could definitely be safe um so I think it’ll be a winter most market for these general purpose chains I think there will also be some application specific chains depending on the use case um but I think it’s really

Difficult to make an application specific chain workor um both from the actual product standpoint and also from the community building standpoint um so I think there’s only going to be a handful of those that are successful and the amount of activity happening there is going to be much lower than the

Activity happening on these general purpose chains so another interesting idea is like um maybe this difference between digital native assets and then kind of real world assets and this comes up every couple of years um right now it seems like most of the success has been coalescing around natively digital

Assets yeah real world assets is that a thing can it happen on say is that interesting to you all is it something that you want to happen on top of SE how do you think about those yeah so it’s definitely something that can happen on say it’s something

That I think should happen on say um in particular like say it’s going to be better place for any type of I mean honestly any type of token based activity to happen um because it’s just a much more skillable Network so uh there’s there are projects in the

Pipeline that are building um real world assets um the question of whether it’s interesting and whether blockchains in general are the place for that activity to happen um I think that’s something that’s still kind of up in the air um especially if yields are low I there

There’s like a lot of stuff that doesn’t really need to be built on chain and I think often times people try to force it to happen on chain through real world assets um I think right now that interest rates are high there’s a lot of projects that are trying to offer um

Essentially like higher interest rate um stuff on um but as soon as those yields start to go down I think it’s going to be interesting to see um what happens with a lot of these rwa projects um but I mean in terms of experimentation in the design space I definitely think folk

Should experiment there um and I do think say is going to end up being one of those places where that experimentation is much easier to facilitate if you had 30 seconds with a developer and they asked you you know why should they build on top of SE what

Is h kind of your pitch to them yeah I mean the biggest thing that stands out uh is you’re able to have a much bigger design space as a developer um you’re no longer limited by 50 TPS so you’re able to build much more um elegant applications where you don’t

Need to have any anti- patterns that you make use of to fit the constraints of the1 and I mean this honestly is something that has resonated with a lot of developers um just being able to explore this bigger design space makes their lives easier and allows them to build uh potentially much more

Interesting types of applications for users that um that makes sense and so when you look at um maybe what you guys are uh doing today what is the biggest risk or where is the potential biggest like pothole in the road right A lot of times we talk about all the positive

Things but as the founder of an organization you think a lot about how do I kill the risk how do I mitigate that risk to to Ure success what are those things that you’re most worried about or trying to mitigate yeah so I mean for any type of

L1 I would say crypto infrastructure more broadly there ends up being a couple of different things that matter um the first is the technology um the second is the ecosystem so developers and the third is community so like end users of this technology um from safe standpoint right now I don’t think

Technology is really that big of a risk at this point um like there’s already a core like sav1 that is like and Sav You2 there’s been a ton of progress happening towards that so that’s definitely not something that keeps me up at night um the biggest things are just uh ecosystem

And Community I mean I think Community is honestly the thing that’s most difficult to um basically acquire to create um because there’s so many different types of infrastructure um having your infrastructure be the one that people actually care about um it’s really tough to set that up I think in

St’s case we actually had a really wild kind of Journey in December so around a month and a half ago uh where there was the saan meme that took off um and for any listeners that might not have been following on crypto Twitter back then um

Sayyan is from Dragon Ball Z um it is the kind of alien race that like Goku and all the other main characters um are and it sounds really similar to say so folks started just meing about that um and it really started taking off and then since then there’s just been a much

Stronger Community that’s been emerging on S um I think one example exle of activity you start seeing with the stronger Community is nft activity um because nfts tend to be things that people have much more an emotional TI to um and you start to see a lot more nft

Activity happening in these ecosystems where there is like uh legit communi that are forming um nfts also tend to be a lot cheaper to trade um and they require a lot less sophistication to be able to trade compared to potentially token um token based projects so yeah like or fundable token based projects

But yeah I think that’s been super interesting to see come together and once you start having an organic Community um then it really incentivizes ecosystem to get formed so more developers coming in um but yeah I mean if say does not end up succeeding in the three-year time frame um I think it’ll

Be a combination of not enough developers to come on um and not enough Community there’s able to get formed where can we send people to find you online or find out more about SE yeah I mean to learn more about say you can go

To say’s Twitter so SEI NE w r k um and in my case you can just follow me on Twitter as well so j a y n d r aore jog awesome Jay thank you so much for taking the time to do this uh it’s obvious that you guys have been pretty

Thoughtful about what you’re building here and uh it looks like lots of developers are starting to pay attention so uh best of luck in the future we’ll definely do it again cool thank you man