The EU has recently launched different initiatives to foster the EU’s competitiveness and capacity to innovate and accelerate the deployment of new technologies. The Critical raw Materials Act, Net Zero Industry Act, STEP and the EU Chips Act are important steps as is moving towards a circular economy. The EU is still maintaining some major innovation capacity in some green / digital technologies but scale up investment and building manufacturing capacity as well as ensuring adequate energy, digital etc. infrastructure remains a challenge. This panel will exchange views on how to reposition the EU in the global technological race and discuss role of a strong single market, skills and investment needs.
Speakers:
Laura Piovesan – Director General, Projects Directorate, European Investment Bank
Nicola Beer – Vice-President, European Investment Bank
Martin Berg – CEO, Climate Asset Management
Nicola Kimm – Member of the Managing Board and Chief Sustainability Officer, Heidelberg Materials
Mathias Miedreich – Chief Executive Officer, Umicore
Björn Zikarsky – Chief Executive Officer, Pure Batteries Technology
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It is now my pleasure to introduce our next panelists on stage we’re going to discuss competitiveness and innovation in European manufacturing our last panel uh today will discuss how the EU should enhance its competitivity in the industrial domain and also which challenges the EU must overcome in terms of innovation regulation and
70 an introduction will be made now by Miss Nicola B who is the vice president of the European Bank of investment and she will leverage on her experience as raor uh for the critical raw material act this session will be uh moderated by Miss Laura pesan who is the director
General and also head of the project directorate at the eiib addressing how the EU can further strengthen its model based on sustainable industry touching upon a variety of sectors such as automotive battery raw material valorization and recycling as well as construction and natural Capital Management Miss
Beer the floor is yours thank you very much I think uh once more maybe a really big Applause for Bon P I think this was really an optimistic approach uh we need in this field uh if we want to take people with us and this is optimism I want also to
See at the end of a very inspiring day a day during which we discussed here in the eiib Forum a lot we discussed about policy challenges a year in a year of change I mean a year of change which which will it was mentioned having upcoming European elections so having
Also a move towards a new Parliament and a new commission we have discussed the importance of um the important topic of cohesion looking to the future of regional and urban policy as well as energy security which is never far from the headlines and vice president dombrovski spoke on the need to
Strengthen EU competitiveness and resilience and the vital role that investment has to play and Now ladies and gentlemen honored guests now in our last panel of the day we are going to focus on European manufacturing how can we ensure its Global competitiveness how can we encourage innovation in the context of
The green transition a strong manufacturing base we know it is crucial to our economic autonomy and our resilience in a complex geopolitical environment including long longterm Aid to build a sustainable future to Bal to balance the equation the EU has a green deal a strategy driven by policy and regulation that promotes sustainable
Growth for industry with with good outcomes for Citizens and the planet the green deal in a short aims to ensure that the transition to carbon nality is full of opportunities and there I pick up on what beron picar was saying with his optimistic approach really opportunities we have to seize to enhance our
Competitiveness and to secure sustainable long-term growth the US you know it which has a historically manage to create a thriving environment for entrepreneurs to innovate and scale up is taking a different approach the inflation reduction Act of 2022 which provides grants loans and credit tax credits to public and private
Entities over long term is the US answer to tackling domestic industrial competitiveness while reducing its carbon emissions China with its heavily subsidized and ever expanding industrial progress is becoming a global leader in many green technologies but its approach lacks Conformity with recognized ESG standards access to finance in European
Union by contrast is often cumbersome and biocratic it is less plentiful and fragmented with many different National support schemes such as those in France or Italy or Germany just to name some few to succeed the EU needs to reconcile a number of challenges one of these is strategic raw materials it was already
Mentioned by our moderator and I CH I challenged um I worked on as raur for the critical raw materials act in the European Parliament the legislation creates for the first time a 360 360 Degrees approach on environment that incentivize private Investments supports supply chain resilience also partnering with countries abroad and
Reduces our external dependencies with a Clear Vision of what needs to be done the challenge of putting it into operation must be addressed swiftly seu investment arm the European invest ment bank will have a significant role to play in leveraging the critical raw materials act to support projects across
The EU and beyond that contribute to increasing the eu’s autonomy and resilience to defend competitiveness of our Industries we also have as a part of the green deal carbon border adjustment mechanism to address the issue of carbon leakage and to ensure a Level Playing Field for European businesses often
Subject to un for competition globally and hopefully we will be as Europeans with the green deal a convincing Forerunner to more countries and Industry decarbonizing and joining an international CO2 emission trading scheme the final point I would like to touch upon is that of innovation Innovation is vital to ensure the
European Union remains a strong competitor in the critical Technologies necessary for a successful transition to carbon neutrality the EU needs to create the necessary environment and I by that I mean to allow our successful innovators to scale up and succeed in Europe and with European capital in answer to the
US inflation reduction act the EU response should be multifaced based on Smart regulation and tailor Financial solution Forward Thinking regulation developments to reduce red tape speed up the permitting and decision-making process to create an environment that will not only retain but attract new scientific Minds into European research and development
Ecosystem leveraging and new and existing budgetary resources to develop ESP spoke financial instruments to incentivize an increase in private Capital to support investment and scale up of European companies in critical Technologies such as digital and deep Tech clean tech and biotech in combination with these actions will reduce the EU strategic dependencies and
Enhance its long-term competitiveness these are just a few point at the core of the competitive challenge that the panel will address today so we very happy to have you here uh on I our eiib forum and I will now hand over to Lara for the discussion uh
It was already mentioned laa pan is the D director general of our project directorate so she will now moderate the panel I’m looking for for your results thank you so thank you very much vice president for setting the scene so well for the panel today and thank you for my
Uh panelist esteemed panelist very uh competent panel and I’m really looking forward to the discussion based on indeed what you have set up as a framework you spoke about the uh green transition uh the Strategic autonomy of Europe and competitiveness so these are three pieces of the challenges are these
Tradeoffs are these mutually reinforce objectives so this is what I would like indeed to explore with with the panel today but also to look forward at what our the possible actions Europe needs to take in order to strengthen the competitiveness of our Industries so I would like to start with a common
Question for everyone around what are the most important challenges for EU competitiveness and uh I would like to start uh to start with you uh Matias MRI Matias is the CEO of umiker and umiker is a company which has a long history 200 years of history and longest and an
History of also a transition yourself which has been moving from metal and meling into Advanced Metals and and and recycling so a growth story along really with this transformation of of the industry yeah thank you very much and uh hello I’m very happy to be here in
Indeed we feel ourself a little bit at the center of the debate because we are the ones who actually take the critical minerals and make something out of it make active materials out of that that then power the the batteries forward I like very much what BTO P was saying on
Efficiency I might come back to that a little bit later uh but one point I wanted to make two points actually what to answer your question I think the two points that are key to be done to uh increase keep or increase competitiveness are pretty much just to
Do two things that are already there the number one is the green deal and all the surrounding mechanics that have been putting in place the critical raw material Act is is a very good act uh The Net Zero industry act as well the chips act as well so this is all very
Good and sets I think a benchmark also globally but what is not good is the execution of that so what we as companies and you might hear that from my colleagues as well uh see every day when we try to get permits when we try to put projects in the ground when
We try to actually do so that will be our Point speed execution walk the talk it’s not needed to put new laws in place it’s just to apply the law in the most consistent way and the second one that might be surprising uh to you uh I think
We are losing the strengths of the single market and I have to say as a company I’m not saying we are not benefiting from that if States compete uh to have Investments located in their jurisdictions by you know giving bigger Grant packages and bigger Grant packages
And bigger Grant it’s good for us as an individual company if we play it right but as a European citizen is actually giving away one of the key strengths which is the single Market which is a powerful instrument versus uh other countries so I think in natural apply
The green deal and stick to the single Market thank you thank you very much Matias and indeed the single market and the need to complete or modernize the single Market was mentioned earlier this morning and I think it’s a point maybe we we can come back on what is needed on
That later but now let me pass to uh Nicola Kim Nicola she’s the chief sustainability officer at Heidelberg Cement and indeed cement is considered a hard to Abate sector it’s very it’s very much responsible for uh CO2 emissions but hleb cement has quite an ambitious uh um strategy uh for decarbonization
Yourself no so from your point of view what you see has challenges that EU needs to overcome yeah thank you laara and first I’d also like to thank the eiib for the funding support uh in order to help uh Finance our research development and Innovative efforts on carbon reduction and circularity so
Heidleberg materials is one of the largest um cement and and concrete manufacturers in the world were active in 50 countries and as many of you will know uh cement and concrete represents about 8% of global emissions so it’s very urgent that we we tackle decarbonization for this sector we have the most ambitious
Target in the industry 50% reduction by 2030 and if we think about the challenges it’s very much linked to the three levers the technical levers that we address so over all we can say that um uh the issue is large scale implementation and in terms of the three
Levers we look at uh product so product Innovation there we look at different recipes different formulations for circularity or replacement of the cement um and one of the challenges is every country has different standards and uh that might be on uh for concrete applications or percent recycled content so there’s a harmonization under
Development with the EU so that’s very critical uh the second lever is uh process optimization so here we talk about Energy Efficiency and circular uh technology so uh and here one of the limiting factors is permitting so we deal with a lot of administrative effort red tape uh to scale up Technologies so
One example is we have technology where we take construction demolition waste we separate it into different fractions and actually uh use use those different fractions to make new concrete so this saves virgin materials this reduces carbon footprint and we were delayed several months through permitting issues
So this this is really a bottleneck for us and the third one uh is carbon capture utilization and storage so this is a key technology for us because two-thirds of our emissions come from the reaction to make cement so these are unavoidable emissions and um so to scale
Up ccus we need to have a strong business business case we need a carbon price to make the business case work we need to have ccus allowed in all countries um we are going to be the first company uh deploying carbon capture at full scale at operational
Scale in Norway and we were able to do that not just through EU Innovation funding but also through local funding in Norway and so um the EU Innovation fund is actually focused more on Innovative topics so uh new technologies new storage and not really on scalable deployment so those are the main
Challenges no thank you for bringing in indeed the topics of Permitting which I know it’s it’s an important topic for many here standards but also the markets the the market pool now um same question again and and this time maybe a different pres perspective because we
Move now to uh be zaski and ber is the uh chief executive office of pure battery technologies a a startup company which is working on um cods materials so materials for batteries and you also have a different perspective because you you you live in Australia so you can
Also bring in This Global Perspective comparing European challenges with global challenges yeah thank you very much and honor to be here to contribute to uh hopefully which is a uh you know thought leadership um a lot of it what we say is responsive to policies but we’d also like to move
Forward in in a positive manner um um maybe answering your uh question is by providing you a little story about our company um why is pure battery technologies here we are a small company we’re not a heidleberg cement Yumi cor we we’re just very humble 50 people but
But um we we’re a technology company and that’s one of the challenges how can you be competitive we’re technology company that has what is refer to often a very cool flow sheet for the process Engineers around you that means our processing of materials is innovative um it’s uh clever chemistry it’s considered
Green and sustainable by many parties and um we have always focused on co2 reduction cost reduction and recycling of nickel manganese and Cobalt which is the most common elements currently or the most sort after elements going into into batteries for the energy transition um we um we have achieved reduction of
CO2 of 60% compared to our uh fellow competitors I call it or fellow participants in the industry we’ve been able to reduce cop capex by 60% and Opex by 50% so as a company um through especially last year we have now reached a price level for our plant refinery in
In hen in Germany which is a price competitive or cost competitive with Asia and I’m not even you know adding on the CO2 credits that we might be able to monetize which we’re hoping to then share with our customers so why am I why am I saying this is we don’t require we
Don’t require a green premium to be competitive um we um have worked hard on the ability to create a competitive infrastructure that will lead to autonomy and this is what the European discussion is about how can we be more autonomous how can we be more
Independent of Asia um and um um as an example part of our technology brings with it some other environmental benefits other than just cost and CO2 we just received our permit for our 10,000 ton of metal refinary in in in hen in Germany uh we got all the environmental
Approvals I can have long discussions with Matias about how we deal with waste water and things like that and and and we we’ve been able to be Innovative and and actually get a permit um not saying that it was easy not saying that I haven’t lost the rest of my hair through
During that time but um U we’re we’re we’re we’re standing we’re moving forward we’re very faithful that we can accomplish our very ambitious goal and people always say do you hope I said like not M hope is the poor cousin of Faith right so we’re faithful that we’re
Going to get there and um EB has joined us 14 months ago they provided us with support um you know energy who is a collab operation of of uh of the Eva European battery Alliance uh has has joined has joined the ship as well and we’re now currently working hard on
Closing out the funding so we can start construction our plant um what again why am I saying this autonomy we talked about this I think Innovation is very important in order to create autonomy you got to support you know something that is new something that that breaks
The mold that breaks the barriers and otherwise how can we be competitive with a cost environment like like Asia this is not won’t be possible Matias made a good point about single Market yeah we got to protect it but do we just do it with grants or not allowing them to come
Here uh is not the solution at the end I think we just got to be better and um when I look at the green deal I refer to it as a philosophical framework and net Net Zero act chip act the critical Mineral Act are great things but they
Need to be implemented and we have the systems we have the structures in Europe and though I live in in Australia I consider myself European because by my accent you can tell you I’m German so um coming back to that critical minerals act just want to talk about that one
Real quick um I I I it’s all about integrating the supply chain right it’s about it’s about making sure that the materials end up where they end up and and we always used to say in the refinery business you build a Refinery and the material will follow so we got
To build really cool and efficient and costeffective refineries they don’t necessarily employ the most people because a lot of is automated but neither is an automotive Factory right so we that’s exactly what China did right they have no natural resources but they have a lot of uh refineries yes
Exactly and so and they’re getting the metal out of out of then then I can talk thanks for pointing that out and can talk about raw material you know when we can process it it will come people forget that that the ambitious goals that we have in the EU for Ev
Penetration we have 80% of the nickel 80% of the manganese 80% of the lithium to meet those goals and that’s in Eastern Europe that’s in Germany that’s in new calonia and that’s in Finland we have the metals of course do we want to mine in an environment that’s very very
Costly we don’t have to but if we build the refineries and provide the end product which we can do cost competitively then the metal will follow you know there’s nothing wrong with importing nickel out of Indonesia there’s nothing wrong with importing metal out of out of uh Brazil or or
Other places of the world um but if we’re good in if we’re good in uh refining metals that we used to do and then we’ll be fine um so it’s all about technology from my perspective um it brings me to scaling Innovation so we’re an Innovative company we’re a small
Company we we we didn’t didn’t invent the N bees uh Beast knees but we we came up with something really cool and then the people go oh it’s small isn’t it I’m like yep it’s small start small and then you got to go bigger and um scaling I
Told my fellow um panel members earlier when you scale businesses uh in in Europe there is not a lot of Welcome right there is not a lot of support um there is seed funding there is Venture funding when very early when you work on Concepts and new innovative ideas
Everybody wants to be sexy but when it then comes into the nitty-gritty and scaling things in an operational and and an industrial sense there’s not a lot of support um you end up being forced into a bad deal or you go to the us where the
Markets are bigger Canada US you sell it to an Asian party because they have a lot of money and they implement it then faster and where they live and so so this there is actually a report just recently came out about where the biggest Gap in funding is and the
Biggest Gap in funding is when it’s it’s about scaling innovation in Europe and I think that’s where we got to do more and I’m I’m not asking for Grants not asking for free money I’m saying Norway demonstrates with that Sovereign wealth fund how they invest money they take
Equity they they build a good team there’s plenty of Bankers that look for challenges and they go to one of those funds and they they build good teams and they invest and they get a return for that money and everybody’s happy and I think uh we got to go away from just
Granting money and and and and keeping everybody out we probably have to look at how we can you know complement the the regulatory framework that ask us to do certain things with with with taking more risk um I made a joke in in the in
The US if you take risk and you fail um they say that’s fun wonderful now you learned it go do it again you know so there’s also social and cultural things that we have overcome have to overcome in Europe when you fail in Europe very often you be taxi driver or non Uber
Driver for the rest of your life that has to change thank you B and indeed uh for talking chemistry bringing your own example and also talking about funding and and the Gap in scale up funding that Europe is experiencing where we also risk losing uh some of our better companies and
Ideas to both either Asia or or us now to conclude this first round Martin martinbg um chief executive of climate Asset Management um and also the person to whom I want to ask about a difficult topic the difficult n to crack in competitiveness around natural Capital Agricultural and and where do you see
These challenges in in this area yeah no thank you very much and thank you for the invitation to to speak here so um yeah so maybe I explain I’m I’m feeling a bit like the odd candidate here in this panel so I’m neither working um for for an industrial company nor is my
Sector really the industrial sector so and but I thought Laur that you said like it’s also good to think about what other fact what other factors are actually affecting competitiveness in um in the industrial sector and I think so what we are as we are we are an asset
Management firm based in London we um have 40 people so even bit smaller uh than uh my previous speaker um and what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to focus on natural Capital as an investment class class and you may ask well how does it actually fit now in
This panel and I think um perhaps um I I come from two perspectives first perspective is that um we’re talking mostly when we talk about the industrial act about mitigation um but if you think about how we actually get to the uh to the to the ambitious targets that that
Europe set itself without focusing on nature we won’t get there 25% of all emissions roughly come related to Nature so we can do whatever we want on the on the in the industrial C we won’t get there and on the other hand actually there’s a huge opportunity using nature
As as an ability to further remove CO2 not only through trees but also through soil and I think that’s exactly what the what the EU is working on with the removal framework to actually um acknowledging that that there’s a there’s a huge opportunity as well not
Only not only a challenge and then the other way the link to the to the industrial side is really I think when we think about how we want to achieve the um the the targets we also have to think about different types of products that that that we’re using so when I
Think about the building sector we’re talking a lot about using now Timber as as a I actually met a company that wants to put a skyscraper made out of bamboo uh Bamboo’s actually not a trees of grass so it’s said they have really fascinating ideas out there and and I
Think especially when you look in certain parts of Europe there are there are also very good examples how other can be achieved so um that’s what we’re all about I think Bon P really spoke exactly um the way we try to frame the issue you have to the question now is
How make you how do you make this scal money how do you make this investable and that’s what we’re all about so we’re working with institutional investors and with corporates on investment vehicles that among other things also in in in invest in Europe now the challenges I
Think the Big Challenge when it comes when we think about Agriculture and Forestry is that I think it’s very clear when you look at all the Frameworks that the way we um do agriculture invest in in or or um produce uh foresty products has to change dramatically um we have to
Look at in a very different way in the traditional way of producing as much as possible yield at any environmental cost can no longer work but the question is how how how do you get there and I think Maas I think you laid out very nicely in
That way there are a lot of um Frameworks when when we when we look um in in Europe and on the agriculture side very similar to the industrial sector we have the farm to Fork initiative we have when you look at the new new um uh common agriculture policy when you look
At the guidance I think everybody’s recognizing that but what we see at the moment when when you look at some of the demonstrations from Farmers we see the challenge how we implement this so I think we need to and and that’s why I really liked um Bon P’s um speech we
Need to do the same for the agriculture side we need to find the positive way to to say that the transition can actually be helpful for all all involved and and and that’s of course also a social question so maybe maybe we leave it here thank you Martin and so we spoke about
The challenges and and and you have named quite a few you also said well we do have the framework um M and we need to make make it work no so I would like to focus this second round of discussion and and please feel free to intervene on
Any question uh around how we make it work so what are the enablers that we can leverage in order to make it work and I would like to start um with Reg tion because you mentioned um permitting V you mentioned standards Nia you also mentioned and it is is it an enabler or
Is it a bottleneck and you know how do you see that yeah I would say that um it is actually it should be an enabler sometimes it’s a bottleneck but the and I have to it fits really very well what B P said earlier I want to bring this to
The discussion about efficiency because let me give you one example the critical raw material Act is a regulation that should uh at the end of the day assure that Europe has enough critical minerals to do the green deal now if you just apply it on face value what you would
Like to do what you would try to do to unlock as many Supply uh streams of nickel Cobalt manganes whatever that come to Europe or are in Europe that can be used the more clever way indeed would be to say first um how can we reduce the
Need for those and what’s coming in there is the what what I would call the technology efficiency of the application of those laws so um and and by the way I would like to uh mention as well um uh that exactly that’s the topic where we are working together with the
Eiib now and where we just have signed uh before coming into this meeting room um uh an agreement for 30 50 million euro uh loan that is especially focused on R&D and innovation in the battery material supply chain to work a on the fact that we need less critical
Materials that the same function of the battery is used with less nickel less Cobalt it’s also about the efficiency in the processing in the supply chain I don’t know if you know that if you go to a mine and take out a portion of raw material until it is in the electric car
Over the whole supply chain you have lost 30% of it 30% so you can save every third mine in the world if your efficiency would be 100% in the different processing steps and the last topic of efficiency that should be considered in the application of the regulation is on capex efficiency you
Know we we all have to spend in this industry billions of Euros to build the Giga factories um and that’s slowing down the application of of the legislations of the framework so we also have to use the technology to make that less cup extends the whole exercise so
On all of those three fronts uh if you just read the law as it is you don’t see that so I my my point is the success is in a clever application of an efficient roll out and not just by the book Thank you thank you indeed um interesting you know introducing the
Word efficiency when we talk about about the regulation and uh uh N I hope you don’t think it’s a contradiction no no no I think it’s a pragmatic approach and uh uh Nic I think you wanted to mention um also some kind of positive examples of how the
Regulation uh can be indeed an enabler for competitiveness yeah I think there are several um facilitators that have helped us to accelerate our decarbonization efforts uh first uh the EU ETS um it really helped us to create long-term planning on decarbonization activities I think that the challenge will be over
The next decade when the uh allowances go away how do we make sure that the carbon price uh paid for certain industries gets reallocated to decarbonize those Industries um a second facilitator I think will be cbam so we are optimistic that with cbam uh the crossborder adjustment mechanism that we will um be
Able to create a player Le an even uh a Level Playing Field in Europe and uh versus companies which are outside of Europe um another uh example mentioned earlier is the green deal so the green deal has set um a framework but now we really need to take it a step forward to
Uh to implement and to see that the sustainable buildings and infrastructure are really uh driven uh and finally yesterday we heard about the Net Zero industry act so very optimistic that that will help us going forward um there’s a strong focus on ccus as a key enabler for decarbonization um the ACT recommends
Simplified permitting uh to enable projects and has specific recommendations on uh increasing um storage capacity so 50 million tons perom by 2030 mentioned so a lot of developments already in place that we can be quite optimistic uh going forward and you mentioned Cal catura storage and for example can you give me
A practical example of what would be needed to enable of the investments in carbon capture and storage yeah so um if we think about the business case for carbon capture um the Bas business case going forward in the next decade works if we look at the combination of funding um and carbon
Price as well as Market creation so that all needs to to happen in order for the business case to be positive thank you and in terms of regulation of course we spoke already a lot about the uh the critical raw material uh critical raw material act so
Again uh B new mentioned well set let’s set up the refining in Europe and the materials will come okay what what else you think is needed to maintain a strategic autonomy when it comes to critical raw material in Europe what are the Alternatives sorry what were the alternatives to
Material is that what you ask me sorry I couldn’t no indeed what is it needed to maintain the competitiveness in Europe and strategic autonomy when it comes to critical raw material we have this as the Strategic critical raw material act which sets set out uh percentages that
Europe will need to uh to become independent on yeah I mean the raw material act has certain kpis that they would like to achieve right and the question is is the are this the right kpis can they be achieved or or do they make sense um I think the critical raw
Materials as mattius point out is to get critical raw materials I’m not just talking about nickel manganes Cobalt there is you know there there’s tungsten there is raw raw earth metals there’s everything that goes into your little phones here um how how do you have to come them how do you
Make them come to Europe and and again processing senders make sense but coming to the kpis of the critical raw material act for the people that might not might not know all the detail and I don’t know all the details of the entire act either
But um you know the goals are 10% of raw material has to come from Europe to me is it ambitious enough or and this is good to have an ambitious numers I don’t think the numbers ambitious at all um well you can argue both ways right so um first of all I’m I
Come from Sport and you know the higher the hurdle the easier it is to get close to it and and and the likeliness that you achieve something right so records are meant to be broken so if you don’t set any hurdles you say like let’s just
All get together and make sure we get some critical minerals in here then nothing’s going to happen so you have to set a bar and the bar at 10% um you know we had to think about it you know is is is is it hard no no it’s not because
These kind of minerals are abundantly available in Europe the question is do we want to mine them or not and that’s a decision for every jurisdiction to make for for the society to make whether they want to be in C cost intensive mining processes or not a lot of mining
Processes are getting continuously improval BHP I think just launched the first Hydrogen uh the first um battery trucks this week um so so it’s getting better and better mining is not as dirty anymore as it used to be but it’s still not the most Pleasant thing to do do um
Um so 10% of raw material I I gave the numbers earlier you know you go to Eastern Europe there’s all the manganes that we could probably use if battery specification changes it might be different but um there’s a lot of nickel in in new calonia but new calonia is not
Cost effective if you compare to Indonesia right no it’s more like a holiday iseland than an industrial center and um and then you have you have um other materials so 10% I think can be achieved um 25% of recycling I definitely have faith that Europe can achieve that
Because there is too many clever people and there is too many support already for that as well um that that 25% of metal recycling can be achieved um Europe Europeans are good recyclers we’ve done it we shown it whether it works or not I’m not not a not an expert
But with with with trash you know trash recycling plastic recycling and things like that um it works it can be done the question I have under 40% is of the processing you 40% of the material needs to be processed in Europe so European content I’m I’m and I’m skeptical on
That not because I’m in that sector but I think it’s it’s more challenging and it comes down to regulations comes down to permitting you know I mean we we talked about permit we got a permit our our fellow industry participants have been fighting against one one individual
In a certain country in in Europe that that thinks he needs to be G or better than the Supreme Court and that held up I don’t know probably over a billion dollars of investment so far held it up and is not helping us to build infrastructure that we desperately need
If we want to really be a player in the energy transition so so from that perspective you know the European uh business uh the European battery uh uh Alliance um in cooperation with vice president sovich has done a lot um um but they also fighting the red tape and
Hopefully we can declutter it more um be may I uh have a different opinion on one topic I fully agree on everything I think I’m more pessimistic on the battery recycling quota and why not uh because I don’t believe that there are enough companies who could do
It but when we look into the world we have seen that a lot of uh companies have started to get into that with the attitude to say okay it’s a it’s recycling so we we will do it but it’s actually much more difficult than that so the metallurgical extraction of
Materials is very very difficult to do it in the yields and uh in the scale that that you need to do uh and we have seen a couple of examples in the industry that have given up meanwhile because they have simply underestimated the CeX that is needed for example uh or
The in the regulation there is also there are efficiencies mentioned that need to be met in the recycling uh uh topic that’s not triv and I think the industry on the broad scale is not there yet to solve it technically I think the this is
A little bit too Rosy I think what we hear everywhere startups coming up the the core metallurgical extraction in our definition to come from uh scrap to to metal salts or to metal there are not a lot of players who can do it so I’m I’m more pessimistic the other one I fully
Agree uh I think we have also heard about the the need for ecosystem and an integrated uh supply chain both when it comes to the circular economy and and the resilience of this supply chain so what you see as gaps in in in the EU Supply chains and value chains what uh
What need to be uh but need to be fed what what are you in your view the critical gaps to support the competitiveness Martin can I ask you this well I mean we we’re in a very different sector I would say um in that sense so we what we probably see is that
Um now going to the to the Natural Capital sector which is I think mainly agriculture here here in Europe is that we’re still importing a lot of products that we could actually um do here in Europe ourselves um and um what we see is a lot of the regulation um that is
Coming through is actually driving now more and more investors to look for that and more corporates to look into their supply chain and saying where’s actually things coming from what is the carbon footprint related to that um on top of that we see more and more Targets in
Relating in relating to Nature there are um more Frameworks that are coming up from that both under internationally and also under under the EU so just give you a positive because you also asked for the positive examples so what we have done for example is we we converted um
Land in Spain in Portugal that was previously used for um either grassland or tobacco into into uh regenerative AG regenerative farms for for almonds and with that we are replacing um the the import of almonds which are mainly coming from from California at the moment in all over Europe under
Sometimes very um let’s say stressful environmental conditions so I think that’s a good example if you look for the positive examples where you where you can exactly look at that um you maybe also help then some of the European company in their supply chains um probably not in the manufacturing
Light but probably more more in in in areas where um where they use natural products but I think it’s a it’s a good example and then the other nice thing is from from that perspective that we’re actually doing this um with with with a very attractive return for our investors
So um it’s it’s a great example where by going in a more longer term sustainable managed product you can also at the same time generate a higher return turn which is I think exactly what B tried to explain like those are the kind of examples we need um and I think we need
To communicate this better that they actually exist I’m grateful for B P to have set this this this panel on a positive and you know track looking focusing very much on opportunities while it could have been a panel complaining about the lack of opportunities maybe in Europe or the
Barers in Europe so on opportunities and indeed uh so when I’m I’m talking about the gaps in supply chain is there are also opportunities in the supply chain and Nia yes yeah I think one of the gaps um is in public procurement so um we see in
The uh NGO space and uh company NGO collaboration uh with the first mover Coalition for example initiated by the world economic Forum clear criteria on uh sustainable procurement so what is a sustainable cement or concrete and to form a collaboration across the value chain I think if we want to drive green
Deal and Net Zero uh industry act we need to also stimulate the market through uh public procurement no indeed and this would create the the business case and and the market that you were pointing to as lacking as one of the challenges and another opportunities also comes through
Partnership I think B you mentioned the the the battery Alliance as a partnership but also um or you do have experience of Partnerships yeah exactly that’s a very good point we we talk about even ecosystems in that sense because uh the transformation that we are in in our case that’s the mobility transformation
Is extremely needed for for the green deal right we have to have electric vehicles at the same time it’s extremely difficult so no company can do that alone and so so the network between the companies uh the network between uh public and private you the public private Partnerships uh and and our
Agreement with the IB is a very good example of that that we that we have signed today to drive forward uh the Innovations needed and to put the load on different shoulders that didn’t carry this big load this is uh also something that maybe Europe can have a competitive advantage against other countries
Because uh the European idea is exactly that that Partners work together to solve a common goal and and I think uh so far we see uh very good progress in these regards thank you um as I mentioned when we started the panel it’s it’s really a timely discussion because the commission
Has issued h a recommendation to set up a very ambitious Target for 2040 of 90% of the emission reduction and this is a target which comes for a with a very uh Hefty price tag so 1.5 uh trillion every year 2030 2040 of Investments needed so if you and I would
Like to ask each of you the same question if you had the possibility to indeed uh uh give a recommendation in terms where the priority for Investments should be placed in in in this next uh framework what would you point to maybe J shall we start it’s a short answer and you know
In the processing supply chain it’s not because I’m there but I think that’s where you know the raw materials is almost commodity Goods you can you can you can get them into the market but then processing them for the needs that you have is is is is a is a key
Competence and you should invest in those it’s I refer to as an infrastructure and we building airports we Building Bridges we building highways and we have to build processing infrastructure it’s the same as having bakeries and having having other things you need to invest in those areas and um
And and make sure that they’re competitive so when you talk about infrastructure can you give some concete concrete examples an oil refiner is infrastructure a battery material refining company or or a cell maker is a is an infrastructure if if that is the direction that we want to go and and and
And accelerate the energy transition by storing energy and and using renewable energy and things like that then then you need to invest in those in those things Matia said that’s what the Chinese have done they started 20 15 20 years ago so we have a catchup to do so
Starting from the the building blocks let’s say the materials so yeah yeah Nica yeah my desire would be to have um certainty around uh political and Regulatory environments so um uh to support the the business case for us to to invest in in these Technologies and uh carbon pricing and uh yeah certainty
Around the the regulatory part Martin when I think about it and again I come come from my sector then of course the the big elephant in the so first of all in order to achieve the 204 40 targets which I think the recommendation is 90% as I said before
Without addressing the the emissions that are coming from the from the landbased sector we we W get there so that’s that’s I think has to be underlined how do you get there at the moment when you have a common agriculture policy that is still not providing the right incentives to
Actually change the change behaviors on on on that side and and I think that’s what we’re seeing at the moment there is a clear path through the transition anybody who looks at it knows that changes have to be done but it’s extremely challenging to do that without
At the same time providing the right incentives to um to the farmers and the and the communities that are mostly affected and I think that’s what I would wish will that we come up with very clear incentives and again I think it’s a certainty or the long term that it’s
Important there everybody just looks now on the okay I have the next um um cap and for the next five years can I really change that quickly and what is if the regulation then after that’s changed again I think that’s a real problem for for and and then also I think um a
Sector that is by definition quite conservative so I think it’s a long it’s a providing the right incentives and then at the same time providing the long-term certainty that that it’s not only for 5 years but really until 2040 yeah for me it’s two points sector specific in our industry it’s again it’s
Processing because if you look to 2030 and if you look to all the electric vehicles that should be built in 2030 only 60% of them will have the right materials from European sources so there’s a 40% Gap so 40% of the battery materials the have to be soured the
Processed battery materials have to be soured from outside Europe so that has to change it needs to be 100% or close to 100% secondly cross sector again I come back to the efficiency focus on the net not on the gross so make sure that we are um harmonized that and we are
Incentivizing the efficient use of the resources and not just the growth of the sources of the materials so you you spoke again about efficiency and indeed um and we spoke about materials circular economy it is a potential enabler because it does enable this efficiency but we have discussed many barriers to
This starting from different standards different regulation different requirements but also technical barriers yeah that’s absolutely true and and just to um make one important Point what is the reason for circularity in batteries why do we want to do battery recycling the industry it’s actually not in the first place to secure the supply
Of materials that’s a side effect because battery recycling is the only way that the industry can meet the CO2 legislation of an electric vehicle if you have an electric vehicle and you all know the story of I have to drive my electric vehicle for 880,000 kilm before
I am net CO2 negative because building that vehicle the battery has emitted so and so many tons of CO2 so by recycling you get that down to by 90 95% and that’s one of the key reasons now the hurdle as I said is is mostly a technological hurdle because when you
Ask today what are you doing I’m doing battery recycling can mean everything I’m a company that is dismantling batteries from a car to at The Other Extreme uh uh metalogical processing Factory that is extracting the battery grade Metals again and there is black mass and there is shredding and there’s
All this steps in between but I think the debate doesn’t focus enough on the most important part of that value chain the metallurgical extraction so to get to this very very precious metals that have nearly no CO2 we still have a technological fight to make that uh in
The right extraction yields and at the right Capital cost he he made a very good point about the co you know recycling batteries CO2 reduction is much bigger than getting primary material out of mines and processing it um you can do that with recycling now you can but that’s what we
Don’t want you can throw it all in a big smelter a big smelter and you can separate the metals you have them all back but that CO2 footprint is higher than mining it so we we started down that path and we said we have to reduce
The CO2 emissions so we need to get Innovative processes into recycling so so I’m I’m I’m not taking back my argument that I think we’re going to get there with 25% but it’s a complex undertaking it’s not as simple as separating Plastics I just want to clarify that no absolutely and also in
The cement industry circularity is the way to achieve CO2 reductions no yeah so for us um circularity is equally important to CO2 um you have circularity already in the cement production because um you use uh yeah slag from the steel industry fly ash from coal fired uh
Power plants uh to to um yeah produce uh cement and in concrete um what we are now shifting towards is uh yeah separating the fra actions using it again and this uh this can be done today so we really need to uh see how we can shift away from uh virgin materials and
Look for the built environment to uh to get these materials okay so maybe I turn to the audience to see if there are questions from the audience and you have the opportunity indeed to ask a questions to our panelist thank you very much very very insightful
Um I’m Nicola P CE of till Capital I’m a growth investment fund so I I understand what you say about how hard it is to to invest in that in that segment U two quick questions one to what extent do you think that the I don’t want to say
The lack of integration but the the the need for further integration of Europe may be one of the reasons why it’s harder to scale up in Europe compared to the US or or Asia one question depth of the market Etc and the second and I’m drawing upon the last command of of
Matas um 100% in Europe shouldn’t we think differently about Supply chains and cooperations with other countries that that could also have a I would say a role in securing new Supply chains and new cooperations form between Europe and those countries instead of having some sort of dependency as we used to have
And we still have in Europe thank you so the the focus is really around uh battery materials let’s say um yeah let me maybe ask the F the last question first I fully agree because um the there should be a certain uh threshold that we put out and this
Threshold should purely be based on co2 I give you a very good example Indonesia is is is a heaven for the battery industry because nickel is abundantly available uh yon said we should have nickel from Indonesia I agree the problem is that uh 98% of all of the nickel in Indonesia is
Mined by plant that by by mines that use coal powered uh energy so you take the nickel out you bring it in a European battery it’s defeating the purpose but indeed the the work around has has to be that in Indonesia a certain value ad is installed so we’re talking about mine
The next step is called hpel the step afterward is called refining and then there PM Etc so that’s something the industry will see that uh companies consortiums will go there to a install renewable energy and B go to a certain processing step and there’s a nice side
Effect if you increase the processing uh in the region where the raw material is the the amount of material you have to ship gets much smaller so more energy dense if you want or more M material dense so the CO2 of Transportation is reduced so I fully agree this needs to
Be part of the story now what taints that a little bit is the uh protectionism of some uh of some areas another good example I have is the IRA in the US and the non-inclusion of Europe as a zone of the IRA if that would happen it would be an immensely
Positive effect on efficiencies of CAPIC because in each of the regions there are always capacities that are not 100% used if they could float between each other that would be another very good part of of international cooperation and on the first question which was around are you is Europe a
Disadvantage because we are more fragmented we have smaller markets um and for example uh you mentioned before to me the example of of of Canada as as an alternative yeah so as we are global company we make experience everywhere in terms of uh uh you know how projects are taken Canada
For example for us for a very good example where everything went very fast because it was one country now if I look to Europe what would be now as of today what do you what if you ask me what’s the biggest risk or hurdle of being
Fragmented uh I think it is the whole regulation about battery recycling and what happens with a battery when it is dismantled from a car in some countries it’s okay in other countries it’s and toxic waste that needs to be processed other countries even forbid in Europe forbid the export of used batteries into
Another country because they want to exploit the raw materials that I mean if we start like this there is no advantage of a single Market I think there was a question about scaling technology in a European environment and and obviously you know a kind of system in China where you
Know or in Korea even or where winners are and you do this and you do this and you do this there certain parties in in in in in China you go for one thing and you cannot go to the other one because it’s directed that they get to do this
It’s by the way also similar in Japan so it’s not just you know not just a a you know political issue um um scaling across then Europe is when you’re talking about a single Market you know you have you have certain companies in one country wanting to do do similar
Things in the one in the next country then you would argue there is more competition but then you also need scale and this is where we’re losing out as Europe all the time you know we we talking about big big funding packages that that Europe is is making available
For the energy transition but in China you get a support package you hear about support packages of 150 billion every other week right so so they just work on a different scale and it’s similar to the IR there’s a lot more money available than it is here so so you you
You you you’re fighting you you’re fighting with with with with two different weapons you know you’re bringing a knife to a gunfight um so when you when you’re looking at at scaling then and you need money for that you’re always going to be a little bit
Behind and so that’s why I find it even though it’s a single Market it’s much more complex to do it in a you know in a in a member Society of the European Union where you have 28 or 29 not sure um 27 27 did you take the UK out now okay
Thank you so anyways where you have a number of parties that have to agree makes it much harder and it you it takes longer yeah I also want to stress the point of uh collaboration across countries in in Europe when it comes to uh ccus because um if you think about
Building pipelines uh which cross different countries different legislations the collaboration require ired between uh the producer the pipeline provider the storage provider the transport uh shipping so uh there are a lot of uh there’s a lot of uh things to to work out in that kind of a
Scenario so I think if we uh there are several projects now underway which uh are cross Europe projects so we’re going to have to see that we harmonize some of the the ways we approach this and indeed you mention CO2 infrastructure in this case as well so the point of the needing of
Investing in infrastructure which enable the transition as one of the priorities exactly so what people might not be aware of is that uh yeah concrete is vitally important for the transition to renewable electricity to make dams to make uh wind farms and um yeah it’s fully recyclable and uh it’s durable so
We need uh concrete and cement to uh for the uh yeah green transition so okay my my watch has um finished the batteries actually so I don’t know how much time we still have but I think we do still have a bit of time for a question before I sum up one
Question if there is no qu there are two questions okay helloo um first question is for Martin um I was a bit stunned when you were talking about this project to repurpose some land in Spain to produce almond in order to avoid relying on California which is I think the the largest
Producer of almonds in the world but as as we all know Al almond is in need of a lot of water to to be produced and we also all know the C the the Water Crisis in Spain so are we finding a solution by creating another problem down the road
And the second the second uh question is for Matias I I would like to have it just just your perspective I heard about this company in California I can’t remember the name they’re basically um uh using um all the the the the the used batteries putting them into a
Container you know just like that and using that as a storage room for the power grid so whenever you know the demand is very high they can use the the the energy for from those container right that are used as power grid and then whenever those batteries are have
Provided the last bit of juice getting rid of them I’m not sure whether the the concept from your perspective makes sense and whether there’s still something to extract from those you know batteries having no juice anymore let me see if there is also the second there was a second question you
You said we take that as well and and then thank you taana from your Capital Partners somebody else from uh the investment landscape B you mentioned something about playing catchup and something which seems to have been the elephant in the room is Europe we have a Technologies we have the R&D but over
The last 15 years we’ve been focusing much more on services and digitalization and suddenly manufacturing with geopolitical tensions has suddenly become uh very important once again but we’re also 10 to 15 years behind in our investments in our infrastructure in the sexiness of the industry so I’d love a little comment
Maybe from each panelist about how can Europe and you as industry what can we do to leverage our value added and better play catch up with Asia the US also it’s not only coming from the East okay I think we have a quite a full round of questions so um
You want to start me on the almonds yeah you’re right almonds need a lot of water in California too by the way and that’s part of the problem but the way they produced there I think it’s um it goes back to what came through in this panel
And that’s efficiency so it’s uh it’s on the one head side finding the right sides where you have water and secondly using it efficiently and I think that’s that’s the only way you you can do that so also on the agriculture um sector that’s exactly one of the key themes and
There’s a lot more technology now available how we can do that but maybe what’s interesting um on on this specific project not all of them they are financing but there are few of them they’re actually benefiting from also and this goes to the like where do we choose to do our project there’s
Actually um an an interesting also e supported project the Ala Dam um which allows which which actually is a 20-year planning process I think going back to um the the commission actually trying to identify areas where agriculture could be done in areas with very low water
Levels and I think um that’s it’s a great example also where I think the policy comes together within the opportunity so we have a we’re actually aggregating projects but two of our projects there they actually benefiting from that and and that secures water and they are the actually the two top
Projects in in in our risk list on on on water scarcity that actually have no problem so I think it’s a combination the right the right location the right policies and efficiency thank you and from elements to Batteries Now um so a yes it’s a good
Idea and it’s a idea that is not only by this one company in California it’s a general idea of what’s called the second life of those batteries and actually when a battery comes out of a car after 10 12 years it’s not true that this battery is dead it has around with
Modern Battery Technology still around 80 70% of of the of the new value so you can do a lot with it the important thing is uh is to detect in the moment you get it back what’s that called the so-called state of health because because if you
Know it of all your batteries you can make a good container and you can you know you know what’s in and that’s very if you say trendy in the for the energy providers today and and where the energy providers in the past were wanting to use hydrogen to
Store renewable energy because of the advancements of battery technologies the battery this concept of second life is getting really momentum right now and it it makes a lot of sense now at the end of all of that and they have been you know used and used and used and are
Really down the question is can you still get something out of it and that’s the beauty of metalogy because metal is doesn’t care so they’re indefinably uh recyclable and the metal comes out as fresh as it you would get it from a mine so you can run down a battery until it’s
Complete dead and recover all of the metals and and there will be healthy competition about second life battery provide Power providers and people that want to recycle the material early so it’s an interesting observation to have in the market so around the the the second question then on
Um um leveraging uh strength of the European industry or you know more broadly uh in order to catch up first of all do we need to catch up or you think we are well placed I think we need to catch up because indeed industrial activities have not been sexy
Uh the last years there are some countries like I mentioned Canada before that have identified that electrification and the energy transition is a chance for reindustrialization Canada has lost its automotive industry to Mexico in the ’90s and have now a very good chance to bring back a big value ad portion
Because they have the raw materials they have the talent they have the uh renewable energy in Europe what we have is technology we have technology and we have companies that know how to do it and uh I’m not so post pessimistic because I feel that through this uh energy
Transition also the attractiveness of manufacturing as an industry to young people to talents has been increased you know to work in a battery Giga Factory this is something sexy so uh I’m not so pessimistic as you are maybe Mar yeah probably I would I would agree that um the the big
Thing that Europe has is really the the knowhow and the technology and I think now they also for for for the sector I’m working and I think that’s that that will be the important part to to kind of um implement this now and and and and
See how we can transform the NOA into actually real action on the ground for the construction materials industry in Europe it’s not about catchup because we’re really at the Forefront of the materials development and uh it’s more about accelerating deploying implementing and maybe it’s not about
Catchup it’s just like a lot of things in life are cyclical you know we built a strong manufacturing base and then you know decided to Outsource and now we insourcing again and we just have to you know we might have lost our way a little
Bit and just get it back and and maybe our next generation or the two generations after us they’re going to make the same thing again and they Outsource everything to the next continent and the cycle continues okay now thank you and let me try to summarize this uh very Lively
Exchange so first of all we we spoke about what are the challenges we do have a framework now the framework needs to be implemented needs to to to we need to make it work as you said Matias and uh indeed making it work mean meaning means also looking at the implementing the Reg
Ation in a way that it’s an enabler indeed and not a bottleneck and it’s smarter and brings in efficiency um so we also spoke about the opportunities and the investment needs that Europe needs to face and I think you you you listed first of all infrastructure being meaning building
The kind of a base industry that needs to supply the rest but also uh you know for example uh carbon infrastructure rure and all the enablers I think one opportunity important opportunity that you mentioned is Europe as technology has been Kno how challenges often in scaling this up and the lack uh of
Suitable um risk financing or taking risk capacity both from the preneurial uh culture but also in terms of risk taking for scaling it up and I think you also mentioned the need of uh of incentives uh uh marting having the right incentives and not only the right
Sticks let’s say now but we have with the regulations so um I hope I have summarized the key points of of this exchange and I wanted to thank you very much for for for for this discussion can we have an Applause for our [Applause] panelist laa thank you for having mod
Ated this panel big thank you to our panelists for this uh very very interesting uh exchange and giving us uh uh some hints on how to rebuild the industrial capacity in the European Union ladies and gentlemen we have arrived at the end of day one of the eib Group Forum
2024 I think it we had amazing an amazing day today fruitful exchanges great keynote speeches and I think we this was only possible due to our amazing speakers and I think we need a Round of Applause Just for them to thank them and you are now invited to a
Networking dinner I wish you a very very pleasant evening and I’m looking forward to seeing you tomorrow morning here at 9:00 for day two of this forum have a great evening and thank you for your attention Enjoy