In this video, I chatted with Charles Hoskinson, the founder of Cardano and CEO of Input Output. Charles shared insights into his busy life, from managing bison on his ranch to his deep dive into concrete for construction projects, reflecting his never-ending curiosity and dedication to learning. We delved into the remarkable progress of Cardano, discussing its scalability, governance, and the significant strides made in the ecosystem despite the bear market. Charles also opened up about the challenges of managing multiple companies, his personal growth journey, and the innovative cold plunge routine that kickstarts his day. The conversation highlighted Cardano’s future, including the exciting developments around Midnight and the importance of Cardano’s governance model. Charles’s passion for Cardano and his vision for a decentralized future were palpable, offering a unique glimpse into the mind of one of the crypto world’s most influential figures.
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Intro 00:00
How is life? 00:10
Cardano 2 years ago vs. now 6:20
Cardano innovation going unnoticed 11:50
What Intersect has to do with governance 14:30
Cardano as dominant governance system 27:30
Stablecoins needed 33:55
USDC 37:35
USDC and scaling 41:50
Cardano is thriving 43:45
USDC and scaling 44:50
Analogy of how Cardano is maturing 46:50
The power of eUTXO in simple terms 52:30
Scaling priorities of 2024 1:01:00
What is Midnight & why it needs Cardano 1:06:20
Midnight and Cardano could bring the industry together 1:13:15
Midnight vs. Cardano? 1:19:30
Midnight will bring millions to Cardano 1:20:00
Cardano will bring the crypto space together 1:22:20
Biggest challenge Cardano has overcome 1:26:30
Biggest challenge for Cardano that lies ahead 1:28:05
Final words 1:34:35
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Today I am joined by cardano founder and also CEO of input output Charles hoskinson Charles welcome back to CCV appreciate you coming on how how is life life is good little little busy you know I had a lot of cavves uh dealing with all the Bison up at the ranch we got a
Lot of great progress in all most of the companies in the portfolio my medical clinic up in Gillette we had 6200 patients the last time we counted it’s growing by Leaps and Bounds a year ago we didn’t have any patient now we have 6,200 um you know we’re making great
Progress with midnight great progress with XE great progress with reflect lot to talk about there uh incredible progress with lace there’s a lot more to do there and uh wonderful stuff happening with cardano as well so across the Spectrum it’s it’s looking good personally this quarter I’m spending a
Lot of time learning how to learn so I took Nick Milo’s class linking your thinking and ‘s class on visual thinking and some other people floating around the ecosystem system on on how to like use obsidian properly and make link notes and you know think about uh how to
Organize and structure a second brain because it’s just becoming so complicated and uh dealing with all these different companies and demands and just so much to read every day hundreds of pages of documents and tons of meetings I’m working like 14 15 hour days also just started the cold plunge
Too you know so I every morning I come into the office the first thing I do is put on a bathing suit and jump into cold water it’s uh like two degrees celius I think that’s like 38 37 degrees Fahrenheit uh and stand there for 3
Minutes try not to die but I got a lot of blubber so actually I think I could probably be in there for a lot longer are you are you are you liking that I’ve always wanted to try doing that stuff it it is it is psychologically traumatizing
You know it’s you get it used to be you get up 5 a.m you work out you’re like ah [ __ ] I got to work out now it’s like you don’t even care about the working out just like I I got to get in that water
It’s going to be so bad you know and I don’t even want to go to bed anymore because I’m like if I get up I have to get in that water but you just put your David goggin in the ears and you said like let’s get hard yeah so so you’re
Running a you’re running a ton of companies and the one thing every day that you dread is is hopping in some cold water well you know don’t knock it till you try it man it’s it’s companies the worst you get yelled at or something or you lose some money that water is
Just there’s something like evolutionary in your brain saying don’t do that and every single time that moment before you dip in there’s this voice like what the hell are you doing I imagine it’s a it’s a crazy mental Builder what it is actually now they’re talking about this I want to jump into
So many different things which we’re about to but I I was on a space the other day you were talk because you’re talking about all these things that you’re doing but the other day you were talking about you what was it you were taking some concrete class like do you
Just do these random things is that something that’s like a priority for you to company I own a construction company so that’s why you’re trying to learn about concrete I got you yeah yeah yeah we have a company we build a lot of the stuff for my Ranch and also my healthc
Care clinic and eventually we’ll get into real estate but uh you know we we have about 30 people in the construction company got a lot of the trades represented we just built a whole design team too so we have me structural civil and uh architecture and I was always
Curious about the concrete side of the business because I’m a big fan of geopolymer concrete which is kind of like the next generation of concrete and so I knew next to nothing of concrete so I said okay I’m going to go to World of Concrete it’s out in Vegas every year
35,000 people come to it it’s a thousand exhibitors so huge conference and I took 12 hours worth of courses on concrete so I learned everything about aggregate selection and different types of cement and how ACI rates the stuff and how pelons work and AD mixtures work for the
Concrete uh like for example you can put uh you know like silica inide your concrete to make it harder but then you usually have to use a super plasticizer because the workability Goes to Hell the slump is basically too low in it so I I
Learned a lot in a very short period of time we even got to pour some concrete and play with it and that type of stuff and so but what’s nice about is it kind of keeps you thinking about how everything is linked and connected you know concrete is the second most common
Substance used by Humanity the first is water and and when you really start thinking about that you say wow it is actually kind of everywhere like everywhere you look there’s some concrete somewhere so it’s such a big part of our economy and when you’re you’re a blockchain guy we’re not just
Here for nfts and financial products and these St they want to apply blockchain to everything and so if this is second most common substance we use we’re going to have to start tracking it blockchains are probably going to get integrated into the whole concrete business and uh
And so from that perspective it’s good to learn about these things because it helps you find the interdisciplinary linkages and then at some point partner and work with people that have to evolve because of some ESG mandate or some sustainability issue or just cost price of cement has skyrocketed the last 10
Years in particular in the last three years it’s changed more than it’s changed last 30 years you know we’ve gone from Standard specs to these new like puson mixes with fly ash and all these other things it’s just really remarkable to see how a traditional thing that never changes changes super
Quickly yeah um you know Vlog schmill is This brilliant thinker who’s in Canada and he wrote this lovely book like how the world Works uh or something like that and he talks about how there’s like four substances we never think about uh but literally they they guide the entire
Destiny of the entire world you know ammonia is one cement is another Steel is is another substance and Plastics polymers and everything is some composition of these things and the only reason we can survive and live and Thrive is because they’re readily available and uh and we don’t tend to
Think of the world in these terms or Dimensions yeah absolutely and and I think that’s actually one of the things you were mentioning on that space when you were talking about this was Things become way more interesting when you bring into play even more context and you see how there’s overlap
Between different worlds so now as you’re talking again about it I I completely get what you’re saying um cool so all right I have a I have a ton that I I want to go over but I want to make I want to try and keep it clean and
Simple but you know I want to I want to chat about stable coins midnight scaling governance which is I think a huge topic uh for cardano but I want to start with this last time last time that we spoke when you were on the channel it was just
Over two years ago I think you know the ecosystem was really just starting to wake up in terms in terms of defi there was like one1 to2 million dollar total value locked or something like that and fast forward through a ridiculously brutal be market and this is what’s so impressive to me tvl
Managed to just slowly just rise right I think we touched like over half a billion dollars through a bare market right um my question is you know coming from the time just a couple years ago everybody just saying it’s a ghost chain to hitting a half a billion dollars in
Total value locked in a bare Market how’s that how’s that feel how’s that make you feel well I’m proud of the community I mean look what they did whether you’re fluid or axo or Indigo or you know iagon or you know it doesn’t matter the project claymates you know
Ape Society everybody carried their load and uh people issued 8 million assets we have tons of transactions every day the blocks are mostly full it’s it’s pretty interesting I’ve never seen a ghost chain where like every block is full it’s pretty Ghost full or something like
That um but you know the problem is that we’re being the goal posts keep getting moved every day they keep getting moved we keep growing we keep delivering as an ecosystem yet somehow someway because the price of adaa isn’t $10 the ecosystem has failed or we’re not
Ethereum in terms of a scale and adoption that the ecosystem somehow failed it’s like every time we turn something on as an ecosystem we’ve had overwhelming participation and constant growth and innovation you know I was at a conference with the ethereum people uh qig and I saw their head researcher come
Up and he’s like hey you know when we get these one shot signatures which need quantum computers to run then we can have liquid staking and and we’ll be at 50% bit resistance I’m just sitting there smiling I’m like you know there may be another ecosystem that already
Has this and doesn’t need to use a quantum computer it’s in some ways we’re so far ahead of of so many people but the problem is it’s just it started out of Japan it grew organically it’s a very bottomup um type of ecosystem very bizarre instead Cathedral and because it
Didn’t benefit the right people it developed a reputation or the best case as a science coin that never really does anything worst case it’s some sort of elaborate scam and uh that just stuck and people dug themselves in um there also are definitely a very vocal minority of people who really really
Hate me and they think every single dimension of me as a human being is evil and sociopathic and just made up up and a lie and so if you have that opinion you can’t admit that the founder of that project has built something worthwhile unless somebody else did it and then
Maybe that’s what they’ll do they’ll be like oh well Freda Garden the foundation did it or something like that it’s if that’s what it takes to get them on board okay um but you know there’s a little bit of all of that the the the
Wrong VCS it’s like as I said where we don’t have the ponan and the VC’s didn’t come in the the the hatred of me and and the fact that it just follows a very radical anti pattern of innovation and Entrepreneurship generally speaking you don’t do first principles peer-reviewed
Research if you want to be a startup and move fast and break things and we did that and in many cases we don’t have the problems other people have like the non-liquid staking or the constant Network resets that certain ecosystems have or these things and we have a
Beautiful road map we know how to scale we know how to get fast finality you know we know how to get partner chains in we know how to get rollups in we know how to get all these things in and there’s an inevitability about it you go
Get a coma and you come back three years later it’s there it’s not not going to happen it’s there there’s almost $750 Million worth of ADA that’s sitting in the cardano treasury at the moment and when 1694 turns on if the community goes for that they have control and
Governance over that money it’s crazy so it’s a giant bank account that basically spend on the growth and and development delivery of cardano it’ll get done and that’s at current market prices it goes back to the all-time high he times that number by six okay that’s billions of
Dollars of capital available for the ecosystem to invest in itself and grow and that’s it today you know and you combine with the fact that R tvl keeps going up the transaction volume keeps going up and you know you see things like axo for example where they can’t
Deploy that model on ethereum you actually need an extended utxo model and they have massive advantages over an ethereum decks as a direct result of what they have we’re really starting to Showcase to the world the design principles actually matter in first principle actually matter so it’s
Frustrating at times but on the other hand it doesn’t really matter because does it actually affect our ability to grow not really we keep Building Bridges we’re starting to get along with people we get along great with alran with padot now thanks to the partner chains framework we have great relationships
With the Iota Community um actually I was just in a space the other day with the vchain people and they get along very well with us they and also we’re starting to build Bridges with all people that had dare a hash craft people you know so we we get along with a lot
Of people there are certain commities that are a little rougher than others like and it’s usually because they hate me but you know intersect is changing all of that because the face of cardano is now the community and so you know come back in a year intersect is doing
Everything in which case they’ll say oh they finally fired Charles now we can love cardono and that’s fine that’s great it actually solves the problem right yeah yeah yeah because that was and I just got a comment or not a comment I saw a clip yesterday on a
Really big YouTube channel too um they were just talking about cardano defi being non-existent and I was I was mentioning to you before we started recording like on the same time when something like axo is launching which is so it’s so Innovative in the crypto
Space I just it would be so cool if people across the space were like dude that’s a really cool product look at that on cardano but it’s not like that what’s what’s the Tipping Point where where those people that are constantly just spreading those false narratives what’s the Tipping Point where that
Might end or is it just not end even when we’re it’ll end because of the partner chains framework you know that’s cardano being open for business blockchain to blockchain sales so midnight is going to have more I in my view ethereum Bitcoin customers than it will cardano just by scale and they’ll
View cardano as a service layer that sells them interesting and intriguing things whether it be decentralized hosting or whatever and what they’ll do is they’ll conceptualize it as a layer two of ethereum not realizing that the security and and the model actually comes from cardano and they don’t really
Care too much you know because it it’s just all one thing and frankly The Meta blockchain play is where you want to be look at layer zero you know they rais like what 180 million at A3 billion valuation and their whole Omni apppp concept that’s where chain
Link’s going too so you know sure there’s ego and rivales and these things but the reality is that the space is already moving on and there’s a great maturing that’s occurring and what people are starting to realize is we’re being eaten From the Inside Out by the financial institutions uh the ETFs are
Here to they’re getting massive amounts of Power by aggregating assets and they have soft power now over Bitcoin and then look at but like 80% I think of all the value of transactions velocity transactions come from asset back stable coins which are not cryptocurrencies so when you really think about it you’re
Starting to see an undue huge amount of power from asset back stable coin Sexes and ETFs that means the Legacy Financial world is eating crypto crypto is not eating them so if you really care about the values what you’re going to do is start migrating the chains that are
Preserved and protected you know from those those bad things and cardano is one of the few ecosystems that so hold out and it still actually has some degree of independence from those uh those people and the latest governments moves that have been pushed I think will permanently put cardonal Beyond touch
You know it’s it’s focusing on decentralization resilience and decentralized control and no one faction or party can go and Co-op the system yeah and and I kind I want to touch on that now that we’re kind of talking about governance a little bit because I think it’s and we’re entering that that
Era right the Vol era first off because you mentioned intersect right so for for anybody out there that’s not aware of what intersect is what what is intersect what does it have to do with governance and you know the Constitutional framework of cardano so there are three pillars to
Good governance and no matter who you are you need these three pillars if if you believe you’re actually going to govern first you have consent Democratic consent so if you’re going to do something the people that it impacts in some way or form or fashion either directly or indirectly through a
Representative they have to put a thumbs up or thumbs down and if you don’t have that you don’t have real governance you have a dictatorship um second you need some form of institution and institutions their job is take really complicated things and turn them into simple things that can get a thumbs up
Or thumbs down for example a budget process it’s a really complicated thing because you’re thinking about the whole totality of the ecosystem and trying to cut wedges in a pie and figure out how much to allocate in each one on an annual basis uh and get that done so how
Much should we spend on education how much should we spend on developer acquisition how much should we spend on marketing as an ecosystem how much should we spend on basic science how much should we spend on development of the core protocol how much should we spend on development of things on top of
The core protocol how much should we spend on client diversity for example do we have a rust node in addition to a hasal node these types of things you add all that together you get a pie and that’s a complicated conversation with many different people you’re not going
To get that done in a chaotic way you have an institution lead that and that institution then gets a recommendation and then you vote on it and then finally you need constitutions and the point of a constitution is to protect minorities and protect fundamental rights like I
Rather like the fact that ADA is a deflationary currency I would not be in favor of people printing a billion Ada out of thin air to go and you know pay for their favorite pet project well the conservation of ADA might be a constitutional property that we as a
Community should vote on and there are other things too like transaction discrimination I rather like the fact that if you issue a transaction and I issue a transaction the protocol treats them exactly the same way you know transaction neutrality we really should not allow people to discriminate one way
Or the other well we’re starting to see discrimination now in other systems that shall remain nameless and U maybe just maybe we should put that in as a constitutional right so you Stitch those three things together you have the Baseline of a government whether it’s good whether it’s a effective whether
It’s fair and Equitable all of these things these are qualitative quantitative properties of it and you can measure those things for the most part and you can decide whether it’s fair or not if you have a good recursive government though it can change itself one of the reasons why America is
Falling apart is that it has two problems that have occurred at the same time one problem is that the Constitution and the current governing structure is not fit for purpose to actually run America there’s a fourth branch of government that took a hundred years to really fully realize itself the
Bureaucratic arm and it’s completely unaccountable to the American people and the Constitution didn’t conceive of it so there’s nothing in the Constitution to constrain that fourth branch of government Well normally if you had a well-functioned government the government would realize that and what would they do change the Constitution
And amend it to protect itself against this fourth Branch but both parties have basically reached a deadlock so you can’t change anything so you have an unchanging government so if cardon’s governance is successful you’ll have those three institutions but if they don’t really do a good job you should be
Able to change it via a hard Fork to a new governing structure to accommodate the times and if it can’t change it’s a failed governing layer you see so we’re experimenting with all this and there’s what’s great is so many people are engaged thousands and thousands of people are like working full-time or
Investing their their part-time or getting involved in many different formats to help build that minimum viable governance and also that recursive governance and there’s already people learning how to be DS you know the basically the congressmen and women of the system and people participating the Civics committee and to your
Question about intersect that’s kind of the Nexus point where those conversations occur it’s a members- bbased organization and it’s what you see is what you get the members join it they build the Committees and it’s taking over the product function of cardano all the GitHub repos have moved
From input output and now they’re actually at intersect so IO developers amongst 15 other companies that work on the core protocol are contributing code now to intersect not the input output repos and also the product backlog and product function of cardano is rolling over there so the question is what
Should protocol parameter be or what should PR plutus V4 look like or you know should we sport aen more and uh you know should we accelerate Laos so we get sharding on the base layer that’s all questions now that are being asked and answered at intersect and whatever the
Answers are that goes into the product backlog and then development companies like IO they say all right well that’s that’s what we’re doing let’s figure out a way to get it done and we go write the code and submit it to those repos um and then the other thing they do is
Intersect is taking over a lot of the fundamental conversations about the cardano Constitution and what they’re going to do is kind of write a Proto thing and then have uh basically workshops around the world probably more than 50 many different countries and uh they also they’re starting the budget
Process as well because if 1694 comes in that budget’s open and instead of just being a like a sovereign wealth fund that cruise and cruise you actually spend now so there needs to be a budget process so if you want to participate in this join intersect the only requirement
Is to have Ada one Ada is enough so just join intersect participate in it and you’ll have a voice on the budget the product backlog all these types of things and then what ends up happening is whatever the recommendations are they get sent to the government of cardano
The DS and the rest of the gang and they’ll vote on it yes or no so that’s your onchain governance component and the institutions are your offchain now the other institutions don’t leave the cardano foundation is still around iio is still around aergo is still around we
Just have different places and roles you know than we used to and we can still deal with things like we’re still one of the best firms in the world to do cryptocurrency research and we have that amazing group 168 collaborators 2011 papers we’re going to keep writing
Papers we still have a gigantic cabal of Engineers and they’re very good engineers and they’re very qualified to do this type of work and the same for the foundation they’re starting to wake up and they’re doing a lot of really interesting things uh from the wall at
Back end the address to team moved over there and they have a whole supply chain thing they’re doing in Georgia and they’re doing education now with the Stak pool education and all this other stuff so they’re still around you know and uh and now just allows them to focus
More on these types of things and they don’t have to worry about being everything to everyone yeah so obviously the whole governance thing is going to be this continuous in this continuous state of progression but I think it’s I think a lot of people might not even realize it’s kind of already it’s
Already in Play It’s the shift is already happening to for cardano to become even more decentralized like it’s happening right now my goal is this year make it the most decentralized cryptocurrency in the market and as measured by the Edinburgh decentralization index so that’s another thing that we built in parallel as an
Ecosystem it wasn’t just good enough to say it you know words are cheap somebody objective and neutral has to measure something so we worked with the University of Edinburgh they hired professors and graduate students and Professional Engineers and they have eight different metrics that they put together to measure the level of
Decentralization of a cryptocurrency and so what they’re doing now is starting to measure ethereum and Bitcoin and eventually cardano they’re going to work their way down the list and then create a number and and then you can look at the number and say okay you’re this much decentralized because
It always bothered me when the SEC would say well Bitcoin is sufficiently decentralized and ethereum is sufficient what the [ __ ] does that mean it’s nuts and we all have an opinion well obviously it is well what what does it mean from a network capacity a tokenomics Viewpoint a governance
Viewpoint a software development project management Viewpoint from a consensus perspective all these different things we should be able to look at them in an objective measurable way and compare and contrast Apples to Apples each cryptocurrency with each other so what I’d love to see is after all these bells
And whistles come in with SIP 1694 and intersect and the rest of the gang that you turn the crank you measure it and whatever Bitcoin is that cardano’s higher and we’ll see if we can get there as an ecosyst but at least it’s to Northstar because if we’re not there
Then when you talk about the budget of cardono that can become a budget priority and saying how do we bridge that gap for 20% Less decentralized in Bitcoin how do we in two years time be more decentralized as measured by EDI you see and then that becomes something you’d hold your stakeholders accountable
To and you said you said you would find a way to get us there you didn’t get us there you’re fired get out and somebody else is going to come in that’s good governance is when you have the ability to objectively measure reality have a kpi to Target you can then measure it
And then everybody agrees that that measurement’s accurate and then you can go and come up with a strategy on how to chase it and then if people get there huzzah you know you get a gold star if they don’t get there you fire them and you put new people in and those new
People get it done that’s kind of a good point that the so the question is do you think that there would be any conflict between Community Driven governance which what we’re talking about and and the need for strategic Direction no because what the community can do is they can set the agenda
They can say things like look we really want to have X Y and Z so X can be decentralization y can be performance and throughput Z can be adoption and they can set those big trends and then we can agree on the measurements then what you do is you
Have an RFI and RFP process people come together and they say this is the strategy we think is going to work and then at some point the community votes on which one they want and then they go open up the treasury and they fund that direction and then what happens is
Unlike conventional politics you actually have a report card that this problem with America is like you got Joe Biden you got Donald Trump if you talk to Trump he’s the best guy since Jesus you talk to Biden he’s I’ve never done anything wrong my whole life you know I
Grew up in a log cabin that I built myself as a baby you know it’s like these guys are perfect but then the problem is like where’s the objective reality what metrics upon which can you assess whether they got a C or they got
An A or they got a B so what the community needs to do is set the strategy and they set that based upon some things that should be reasonable and then you have objective metrics to measure reality and then you go and get people to come up and say we’re going to
Go do that and then you measure it and hold them accountable accordingly and if they do a great job you pay them well and if they don’t do a great job you fire them and replace them with other people you have a governance failure where you know they’re doing a bad job
But you can’t fire them like DHS is a great example where you have just this deplorable situation at the southern border of the United States but the guy charge of that can’t be fired because it’s just how politics work you know and by the way it’s not even Democrats bad I
Mean like look at George Santos it took us so long to get rid of that guy but he because he team red and Red’s got to back him you know and so you can’t fire anybody anymore it’s so hard to do that so you can’t hold people accountable
Whether they’re doing a good job or not so we we thought as a community really hard at how do you build a governing onchain and offchain system where you can separate concerns and you can one place really set an agenda and strategy another place solicit feedback from the
Broader community and see who wants to pursue it and then how do you hold those people accountable once they’re pursuing it and with enough regularity that they can actually get it done and then we can all see if we’ve won or not we do this in sports you know if I’m a Denver
Broncos fan I want to see the Broncos you know win the Super Bowl either they win it or they don’t and if they don’t well did they at least have a good season was it 10 and six or was it 2 and 14 if it’s 10 and and they’re on the
Uptrend you keep the coach if it’s 2 and 14 you fire them you get a change of direction we just organically think the world should work this way but somehow in government we keep the same people Empower despite the fact that they’re just terrible uh so we’re kind of used
To governance being bad but Leisure and companies being good and I I think that’s uh a mistake we need to hold that same standard to the cardano community and I think there’s that mindset people are already really stepping up the Civics committee at intersect is doing a phenomenal job kind of thinking around
Good governance everything from best practices and for DS to the Constitution itself uh there’s a lot of discussion about how to start the budget process for cardano there’s a lot of discussion about taking over the cardano product function and at the end of the day it’s
Either going to be greater or or not it great would be defined as you get what you’re getting right now or better not would be you have a Slowdown of what you have or we start seeing mistakes being made that regress uh the things we’ve already earned like the security and
Uptime of cardono for example yeah last question in terms of in terms of this top topic do you think cardano’s position to be the dominant governance system in crypto I believe I believe so because there’s a lot of great ecosystems out there everything is so adversarial unnecessarily adversarial
It’s like guys grow up tasos has done a great job in certain dimensions and not so great of a job in other dimensions PKA with open gov has done a great job in certain dimension iions not such a great job in other dimensions some people are Anarchy Bitcoin is pure
Anarchy ethereum is basically a call to personality around a small group of stakeholders and they say beneficent people figure this out and every one of these systems they have pros and cons it’s damn near impossible change Bitcoin which means that if you’re happy with the current design you get the closest
Thing you can get to digital immortality it’s GNA be that way forever but if you need that design to change for your business you have a better luck convincing the Pope to become Jewish it’s just not going to happen Okay so so so that’s the thing it’s like you just can’t change that
Ecosystem ethereum can change but it only changes in One Direction according to the will of a very small group of uh exclusive people because they’re running like an open- source project with a beneficent dictator for life like the early days of Linux or the early days of a lot of programming languages like
Python or Ruby or these things they say what does Mats believe let’s go do that and there’s nothing wrong with that approach it actually works really really well as long as you agree with that guy you’ll notice you have a lot of flavors of Linux you’ll notice you have a lot of
Different programming languages because people don’t always agree so you you tend to get more fragmentation people tend to leave if they’re not included in that road map and those who dare to do onchain governance the problem is that you want contradictory things you want stability and efficiency and Clarity and simplicity you want
Reliability but then you want inclusion the problem is the minute you Embrace inclusion you slow everything down because you got that one guy you got to go talk to and convince and it might take six months to convince them and the minute you have inclusion you
Have more people at the table you have Divergent road maps in some cases you actually embrace things that may hurt your security or your reliability of the system and if because they want to maximize throughput this is the the whole salana thing they can’t really actually understand why their protocol
Collapses at times they just accept accepted as a fact of life but they get the benefit of high throughput and they say look we can fix that later but right now is our growth phase so you know like any startup will just move fast and break things and nobody really cares and
Well look at the price maybe they’re right if the only thing you care about is the asset price on Market you see but if you care about other things like decentralization philosophy resilience uh long-term viability of the ecosystem preventing it from getting co-oped or having existential risk maybe just maybe
That’s not the right approach you see and that’s the values thing but the more inclusion the more different values you have because you’re going to invite people at the table where the only thing they care about is price goes up and those people have a right to be
There because they hold data just as much as the people who are hardcore philosophers with a white beard saying we will live in a philosopher’s Utopia and somehow you have to figure it all out that’s why most people don’t want to do onchain governance it’s such a
Headache because you have to somehow get those people to talk to each other and actually agree uh to do the right thing whatever the right thing means you know and cardano if it wins there it’s indestructible a because it’ll never die it’s impossible to kill a decentralized
Movement once you have it running I it’s like the Roman Empire trying to kill Christians it just doesn’t work you no matter how many you kill there’s more of them and then they’ll they’ll Eat You Alive at some point 300 years they went from a underground cult to the emperor
Becoming Christian it’s a very powerful thing when a philosophy’s Time Has Come and then the second thing is you’re smarter than everybody else why because you have a decentralized brain and you have everybody’s intellect adding together corporations are super intelligences and decentralized movements that properly harness the knowledge they’re super intelligences
That are resilient and self-evolving uh so those two characteristics mean in the long run you’ll always win because every one of the competitors technology is open source that matters and so you can just always go and absorb all of that stuff they build something good we’ll take it because it’s open source you
Know the ideas are there they’ll come and so the differentiator is not like a some killer feature that’s patent protected the differentiator is the ecosystem and if your ecosystem never loses and always gains ground it doesn’t matter if it takes you five years or 10
Years or 15 years to grow from 1 million to 10 million once you have those 10 million you have 10 million and you’re 10 times more capable and with that extended brain that is what’s going to get you to 100 million then you’re wake up you’re at a billion you never lose
Because you never lose people they stay and why wouldn’t they they’re going to go to some other standard where they have less rights less value it’s kind of a funny thing it’s like all these people fled from Cuba to the United States but there weren’t a lot of people fleeing
From Florida back to Cuba they kind of go from less free to more free you know uh in terms of political systems and analogously we tend to gravitate towards systems where we have more human rights more autonomy more freedoms more Economic Opportunity so wouldn’t you rather live in a crypto system where you
Have those properties and the onchain government protects you and preserves that as opposed to migrating to a system where you have a dictator that basically just decides if you know if they wake up on the left side of the bed you get this they wake up on the right side you get
That you know that’s that’s always been my view and I don’t think it’s historically controversial um but it’s controversial and only in that people have economic incentives to disagree they have to talk their book you know it’s not like oh well Charles is right well Charles is right and I hold Assets
In the other system it’s like being a real estate holder in the in the Communist dictatorship it’s like well you know I’m kind of in the PO Bure I kind of have a business here I kind of doing this thing I I really can’t disagree I can’t agreee with you because
Well if I disagree I’m gonna end up you know reading DS poetry and wandering the streets of Bangkok you know like certain people like Jack ma okay I I want to Pivot but it’s a little bit of a connection here in terms terms of the governance conversation we
Were just having in terms of stable coins so and I I actually just recently learned this I didn’t realize your interest for stable coins kind of goes back to your days with bitshares which is from this company that you founded in victus Innovations so it seems like it’s
Always been something that’s kind of important to you huh oh my god well because it there are two things you need in order for your system not to get co-opted by the Legacy Financial system you need liquidity you need ability to move in and out of positions and assets
And these types of things you be able to trade so you need exchanges and if you actually want to be a currency you actually want to be economically dominant replace the US dollar you need a stability so if you don’t have liquidity and stability you’re done so I
Started bitshares because it had built in it an algorithmic stable coin and an algorithmic Dex and this was before ethereum now it didn’t work you know and true to form like my co-founder was was Dan larer and he went on and created EOS and steemit all these other things and the rest is
History there and I went on and created ethereum with vitalic so you can judge who was the better one but um it’s been an interest of mine forever because my concern is if we don’t control those they’re going to get co-opted and taken over and that’s literally what’s
Happening if you look at the vast majority of value transfer in crypto rails it’s either tether or circle on a daily trading volume and both of them are centralized entities subject to regulation and control and if you look at we’re all the cryptos being held and all the cryptos being traded the vast
Majority is on centralized exchanges so 10 actors if you sum them together control maybe 80 90% of the happening of a multi-trillion dollar ecosystem if those were algorithmic and onchain zero actors would control that everybody would control the protocols have those capabilities so you damn right I believe
In algorithmic stable coins we even started a company here called XE led by Sean Ford the former CEO vrand uh and that company is pursuing and trying to figure out how to build their core infrastructure and Technology to not only get those things done but get them
Done in a way that is values compatible with cryptocurrencies so they’re decentralized resilient self- Sovereign they don’t have centralized power control or these types of things and trustless so what’s on the label is there you don’t have to trust if tether is solvent or not you don’t have to
Trust that the US government is going to shut down usdc or whatever have you or these typ YP of things so yeah it’s a huge passion of mine and I think so few people especially layer one Builders really take a strong position on it because they love the money they love
The relationships with the the Sexes they love the relationships with the stable coin vendors and they need these to make their Millions to billions of dollars and get their token price high and build defi products and these types of things but okay I guess you can go
And be a shareholder in Black Rock You know it’s like yeah there’s plenty ways you can make plenty of money but that’s not philosophically compatible with where the industry goes so you have to kind of balance it and this is why you need decentralized governance because
Then you can have your cake and eat it too some people can go and deal with them and talk with them because it does create value but at the very least you always have a decentralizing option that runs at the same time and it doesn’t get co-opted or compromised or shut
Down okay so kind of the The Best of Both Worlds because there’s recently been a lot of chatter about usdc in particular and implementing it on cardano Via I’ll give you a great example this one pisses me off more than anything else so you know uh in 2021 I think the foundation
Spearheaded a conversation with them and there was some economics that they were going back and forth on it was never a technological question ever we said look we C Rosetta to work with cardano for coinbase you come to us tell us what you need if if Circle needs us to do a bunch
Of stuff we can figure out a way to make that work with a cardano smart contract it’s not an inconceivable thing there’s a way to do this so it’s not that cardano is incompatible with what Circle wants to do there was never a technological problem there for some
Reason it was a business conversation I it’s like okay well I and it it’s really strange in that there’s enough desire I think in cardano to pay Circle the company what they want or at least what they asked for back in 2021 but they’ve just been ducking the calls Fred guard
Has tried I think five six seven times to get in contact with Jeremy and through many different sources and it’s it’s crazy because one of the board members of the cardano foundation his name is Fernando he does a ton of work with SBI and these other things and
They’re working with Singapore on this whole stable coin thing uh and circle a member and they’re like all talking to each other and yet for some reason they just won’t have that commercial conversation uh and and figure it out because you know at the end of the day
It’s like if Circle came in and said give us $10 million you don’t think the treasury of cardano that would pass if the people were asked they they’d say yes to it it’s not a it’s not a money thing it’s it’s I don’t understand it maybe it’s we are doing stuff in uh
Wyoming was a stable coin project there and circle’s deeply concerned that if the state of Wyoming issues a stable coin this could catastrophically Implement and inhibit their market share by the way one of the people there is used to work for Circle as their general counsel and they’ve been trying very
Aggressively to do ethereum only though that’s gone multi-chain so maybe that’s the issue maybe that’s the wedge there and it’s just retaliation for for you know cardano trying to be one of the places that has the Wyoming stable coin um maybe you know I was at a party with
Jeremy and he didn’t like uh he didn’t like the cut of my jib I don’t know I I don’t think I’ve ever met him in person I don’t think I I met his son once at an event in DC but I can’t for the life of me understand it we’re we’re IO sitting
On the sideline saying you come us with some stuff we’ll build it and the foundation sitting there they did all these Financial models and they said this is how much money Circle can make being the dominant stable coin in the cardano ecosystem and it’s in the eight
Figures annually so it’s a huge sum of money for them um you know actually I think it might even be nine figures you know annually um or like mid 8 to nine it’s like a big chunk of cash that they could make with the defi ecosystem we
Have and obviously we would like to have an asset back stable coin for our real five portfolio a lot of stuff we’re doing in Africa we need a stable asset on cardano to lend for the micr finance transactions so it’s it’s a very bizarre situation and and I you know it’s
Nothing on my side where I’m like oh I don’t want to pay this thing or do that thing or that um first it’s not our role to pay you know it’s either CF or the community Through the treasury function it’s our role to build and if we got an
Instruction hey intersect wants to do an integration with circle circle join intersect we’ll sit down roll all the product requirements out get it in the road map we can do that it’s not a problem it’s not a technological thing it’s not like cardano’s deficient and it’s incompatible or things like that
But I’ve just seen so much fud I saw stuff on Twitter floating around like oh the only reason they’re doing is Charles doesn’t want to pay 10 million dollars or they’re they’re not doing it because uh the ecosystem is too small they just announced like Mina integration or
Something like that or or actually it was cello I think was the cryptocurrency that they integrated with $300 million market cap so you’re [ __ ] telling me there’s there’s that much volume on that it’s almost personal when you look at these types of it’s ridiculous to say
That that’s that’s my kind of my point it’s it’s I didn’t and actually I didn’t I didn’t realize that that there was actually more going on and it’s kind of like once again cardano’s being secluded and it again in this regard it really it really boggles my mind
So putting that aside for just a second you know if it were to happen right if it’s community driven approach you know usdc ends up on cardano you think it would be a good thing for cardano right I’m I’m ambivalent I mean uh in the absence of it a lot of
Community projects are building stable coins and obviously we’re pursuing the algorithmic path which is harder but you know maybe that gets adoption we’d be the first ecosystem where algorithmic stable coins dominate as opposed to asset backed and that’s a good thing I think um but anyway I’m ambivalent
Whether it’s there or not it’ll it’ll come a nature a void and people want stability they’ll find a way to construct it one way or the other through synthetic products or through you know Bridges where they actually take wrapped assets and they bring them in the Nomad Bridge brought in a lot of
Usdc and that’s what did in Wing Riders when The Nomad Bridge got hacked you know so it’ll happen one way or the other um it’s frustrating but it was frustrating when coinbase hadn’t listed adaa and it happened you know it so inevitably these types of things happen
Um and when they don’t happen you start scratching your head and wondering there’s got to be more to the story like FTX for longest time wouldn’t list cardano well a because they were all in in salana and B maybe they that our values are incompatible with ftxs values
And I I you know Gemini won’t list data for some reason can’t figure that one out you know geminii like everybody well misari that one was crazy man um but it’s just everybody everybody it’s not everybody it’s not you’re right you’re right it feels like everybody but we you know we
They grudgingly respect us after one or two you know shots again because either they hate me or they they told all their friends at cocktail parties not to worry about team cardano and now that we’re still around they have to explain it away somehow you know and they’ll just
Go back to L’s book or something uh but you know does that materially affect us no our dvls way up our transaction volume is way up the blocks are mostly full 8 million assets issued the road map is saturated it looks great decentralized governance is tripping away churning away we have a beautiful
View on how to achieve scale it’s multimodal from rollups and recursion to offchain Hydra to partner chains to sharding at the layer one via input endorsers and we’re pursuing all of them in parallel with parallel teams there’s a vibrant ecosystem there and it’s the most balanced and holistic ecosystem of
Any cryptocurrency you know at the moment so I like those prospects and there’s a lot of real world applic some were building some other people are building that are coming in so you know as I said the coma effect come back every 3 years wake up from your coma and
Look at where we were look at where Cardon was at in 2020 versus 2023 and imagine where we’re going to be in 2026 yeah it feels like staking was just coming on and then all of a sudden here we are and it happened so fast too yeah
If if usdc were like the flood of gates open cuz we’re going to start talking about scaling a little bit something like that happened USD is open do you would you anticipate any type of scaling issues if that were to happen or are we ready for that is cardano ready for that
Well there’s a Marketplace for scale and what ends up happening is you very naively use the system you’ll saturate it very quickly and what ends up happening is people realize there’s more efficient ways of doing things just switching from plutus V1 to plutus V2 usually get a 10x reduction in
Transaction size so is that a scale problem or is that I wrote my S software the wrong way problem it almost reminds me back in early days when we were going from single thread to multi-threaded you know single core to multicore you’d have all these people and they’re like I’m
Not going to rewrite my software so you have this computer with four cores and it’s only using one of the four cores so three of the cores are dark they’re not doing anything at all and one is super hot and then the application’s running slow and the user’s like oh Intel sucks
This Chip’s not very fast well if they rewrote their software your application could be 400% faster even if you know all the computer Des stuff aside maybe you get like a two or 3x in real life performance but they didn’t rewrite the software and then suddenly other people
Did and they say I’m just going to buy this software over there it’s it’s a lot better so I think that’s part of your games is and and you’re starting to see this with Sunday swap V3 and what Min swap is doing and you’re starting to see
This with axo and these other apps are they learning how to use the hardware to use an analogy remember the first generation games on the Xbox 360 to the very end what the gamees look like or even a better analogy it was the same Hardware that ran Super Mario ran Mario
Brothers and Mario Brothers 3 look at the difference in those games you know one is just this super pixelated thing and they’re jumping and terrible music and then the the third one you have a whole [ __ ] world you have multiple Maps you actually have an item menu you
Can fly in the sky you can do the same Hardware why because they had enough time to be able to learn how to optimize and use that hard where appropriately they didn’t have to go and build a new Nintendo to do all that stuff so there’s
A little bit of that now at the same time there’s now the communities taking over there’s an onchain parameter committee and you know if they want to increase the block size or M units or other things they will and that will happen uh organically and then uh people
Are learning how to use Hydra and actually Hydra is going to hit a major Milestone sometime this year with incremental commit decommit they going to have to shut the head to be able to deposit withdraw for funds so that’s going to really help a lot of def5
Um that said there’s a humongous body of research on how to actually Shard oroborus it’s called or borus Laos is the design with that 2022 we kind of sketched out a algorithm and said this is kind of how it’s going to get done and now our guys are really drilling
Into the nuts and bolts of the computer science because we don’t want a salana situation where you deploy this and then you have these unpredictable stalls and the whole network has to reset the good news is we figured out how to do it and you know it’s just going through the
Standard computer science peerreview set of things but if the community says you know we’re really concerned about scale you know what they do in the budget process they pull that lever down and they say okay we’re gonna scale it up we’re gonna hire more people we’re gonna
Have competing teams we’re going to do this whole thing we want it done faster okay it’s their prerogative you know from our part we actually got a bunch of fixed cost contracts out to do chunks of work like oror genesis you know it was always like we’ll get around to it as an
Ecosystem so you know we did we called up twe a French contractor and we said would you do this as a fixed cost contract they said sure and they signed that deal 12 months ago they’re almost done with their delivery and it’ll be delivered sometime the April to May time
Frame and then put on the shelf for integration and just have to find integration window for it well that’s pretty cool that you can just take this gantan chunk of work hand it to them and then they go and do it so once Laos gets to a certain level of software Readiness
It’s called an srl and a business Readiness you could take that entire chunk of work as a package and hand it to a firm and it’ll probably be some combination of pnso uh twe and well typed you know well typed is Duncan cs’s firm Duncan the old
Wizard who’s been around for a long time you know and they’ll just chip away at it and if the community wants it faster there’s probably things they can do to wax it and get it done faster but in the meantime we also are going to bring rollups in data availability will
Increase mithil is really growing a lot by the way and then also Hydra can be accelerated there’s tons of things you can do with Hydra to do all those types of things you ask yourself where am I going to use us DC microtransactions tipping lending all these things well
Almost all of that can be done offchain and reconcile in batches which is perfect for utxo style systems so it’s that Nintendo thing of going from Mario Brothers to Mario Brothers 3 you can you can really wax that engine and make it awesome and then there’s some offchain
Stuff you can do and then that’s infinitely scalable and then there’s a lot of things that also you can push to partner chains to do and then there’s a lot of like Pima did this for example with uh DC spark they’ve already done a account abstract action they’ve already
Done their own little version of I think Babel fees and other stuff like that they’re they’re pulling it all into their framework um and then there’s onchain stuff that you can do as well and that that’s deep into the guts of the system and you know I’ve done a few
Videos kind of try to explain these nuances the problem is that it’s hard and it’s hard to explain it’s hard to understand it’s hard to keep all these ideas in your head I’ve been doing it for 10 years and it’s natural for me and I forget from time to time how hard it
Is for people to wrap their whole head around it so what they do is they just say oh well this is I’m just going to stick to a single number like with the multie to single core the the Hertz Intel told everybody for a long time the only thing that matters is gigahertz
Three gigahertz four gigahertz whatever so more is better and they couldn’t wrap their head around this idea that a three gahz chip was slower than a 2 gigahertz chip they couldn’t get it because they told everybody that’s the metric you have to care about so in our industry
It’s TPS transactions per second oh they have 2,000 TPS you say but we don’t have TPS and cardono we have TPT transactions per transaction right if you go to e.org you can see these transactions loaded with lots of [ __ ] that’s not related to each other it’s pretty crazy crazy it is
Crazy yeah and and our real world performance of that can be hundreds of TPS at the current design of the system but then you go talk to an ethereum developer or SL developer they say one transaction per blog one transaction per second you know it’s just it doesn’t go
In the brain because they don’t understand the Paradigm and they don’t care to understand the Paradigm because it’s not relevant to them it is what it is does it affect our growth no and do we have a strategy as an ecosystem to you know kind of grow through it yeah
Sure and can it be accelerated yeah anything can be accelerated but you have to either reduce something like quality and take existential risk or you have to increase something like cost you know and run parallel teams and these types of things and those trade-offs have to be discussed and that’s the point of
Intersect is to have a members based organization where you bring everybody together the nft people and the defi people and the governing bodies and all these things and they all have that discussion and everybody’s informed and then at some point a consensus emerges and they say okay this is the the
Strategy and we just go do it and we live with the consequences for better or worse yeah yeah that that analogy by the way that was perfect cuz like I’m continuously trying to understand everything that’s going on with cardano and I’m like I’m just at the surface
Right so even when I’m sitting here asking you questions I’m trying to you know ask from my perspective somebody that’s like a non-engineer um but you you we just touched on the utxo right and I think that’s really starting the power of that is really starting to show I think in
Cardano how would you explain it in like the most simple terms what utxo is to anybody out there that that would want to know well first utxo the easiest way to explain that is cash register accounting you know when you go and buy something from a cashier and use cash I
Know the kids today they don’t use cash but like in the old days you know the bill comes up to $11.92 you don’t have $119 you open your wallet you have a $20 bill and you hand them a $20 bill now what do they do they
Cut up that $20 bill and take $11.92 out of it and hand you back no it’s an atomic unit that’s your input into the transaction and they open up the cash register do they have the ability to like manufacture pennies and things like no they take bills they already have in
The cash register and they count them up until they balance the transaction so they got to go count up that $8 and so and so cents and so you get a five and three ones and then you get your change and they hand it to you and that
Balances both sides the inputs output the cash register has to balance with these types of things you get your change well that’s utxo that’s great for the movement of assets but it doesn’t do anything for the state of a program so you have a script that represents a program and
Then what happens is that you need to be able to transition that from one state to the next state to the next state so like you have a DEX and you say okay I need to be able to swap you know you have Ada and I have hosy and for some
[ __ ] up reason you want to buy a worthless asset okay well somebody needs to trigger that program to initiate a swap to happen so you have one state transition to another state now just like a cash register you can’t go tear your state apart or these typ of things
It’s an atomic transaction you want this with these types of systems because then you have determinism in it if it settles it settles when you have systems where they’re they’re kind of open and they don’t quite close then you run into all these front running concerns or other
Things like that and also it’s unpredictable what the cost of that transaction is so you get non-determinism in the system with an accounts based model so I’d really recommend you talk to the axo guys bring them on your show and there like have them demonstrate because they took this
Design to the The Logical extreme and they said well if I have all of this stuff that’s deterministic and it’s catch register like I can do a ton of stuff and batch it so I can do all these things offchain all these transactions all these things and then when they come
Back on I get a mathematical guarantee that it’s it’s ordered correctly and it’s right and I only have very limited use of the cardono blockchain but that’s how it should be you enable a whole fin ecosystem that has all the properties of a blockchain but you only use the
Blockchain for an entry and exit point for that so utxo has that nice property about it it’s isomorphic to accounts that we wrote a paper called Chic ledgers that shows how to transfer something in account to utxo and back and what’s nice about it is now that it
Exists it’s a foundational model that you can layer on top you can always abstract an account system on top of utxo system if you want in fact some people have even written sips like DC spark has been pursuing this this for example and they’ve even created an
Emulation of it and a lot of dap developers do this because they need some properties that the account system is a little better they need mutable State and all these other things they want to run a virtual machine and that’s fine you know but when your base model
Has these properties you get a lot of mathematical certainty you know the other thing is it’s a lot easier to reason about program Behavior okay so once you have these these Atomic transactions that settlement tells you a lot of stuff you can write code tests to reason about all the value flow inside
Your program and you can get strong proofs that you don’t have a weird value flow so it eliminates a lot of the traditional problems we’ve had with ethereum like the re-entrancy bug or that caused a dow hack or you know other types of things like that so it’s a more
Secure development model and it’s a much more paralyzable model because you can easily go onchain and offchain and you preserve your guarantees so if you think about where the world’s going it’s Layer Two it’s side Chains It’s centralized server over here and back so if if you
Have a model that doesn’t really care if it’s onchain or offchain everything just kind of settles and it works out that’s the better model long term it’s the par that’s the most paralyzable so I just blew my mind when I saw these ethereum developers saying you can’t scale
Cardono I was like guys you’re saying you can’t scale a supercomputer you can’t scale thousand cores or something like what the [ __ ] are you saying you guys are the guys that have the model that has a lot of problems that’s why they gave up on layer one sharding with
Ethereum for the longest time they had this road map about how they’re going to Shard and have be a billion zillion transactions per second and lo lo and behold now what’s their strategy rollups in Layer Two they’re going to move offchain and then you got vitalic talking about the wonders of utxo you
Know and you see these interviews and they pretend like they’ve invented all of it meanwhile we knew that from the beginning because we started in the functional programming world and we said well this this is how we do things there you know and you can use this uh in a
Very clever way and everything’s a state machine and it’s very beautiful computer science and you get strong math-based guarantees of program behavior and then what you have that as your foundation it’s very easy to build any structure on or offchain that you want with that and
You can get anything you want with that it’s also very easy to Shard in scale really really easy to do that and it’s also easy to do the proofs around it too when you roll up outputs it’s a lot easier to do that the Bitcoin space pioneered this with bulletproof and you
Know these other things plus it’s the oldest model you know we have uh 15 years of history from Bitcoin to look to and understand and reason about they’re all in the Bitcoin space being like ah bit ml it’s so great oh my God it’s great they’re just praising that they’ve
Just added smart contracts to the thing it’s like yeah we know how great utxo based smart contracts are we’ve kind of been doing that for a while in cardanol land uh but they’re they’re right to celebrate in that it’s a good thing the the model it makes a lot of
Sense um so yeah so cash register accounting easier time onchain off chain massively paralyzable determinism especially on the fee structure uh easy program architecture for sharding and scale these are just some of the intrinsic benefits but you know the everyday consumer do have to care at the
End of the day that what they care about is are the transaction fees low um you know do I have reasonable settlement time in my wallet and also over time will this get better faster and cheaper and the answer is yes to all of the above the fees are very low the
Settlement time is pretty reasonable it’s going to only get better and over time we have a lot of great strategies as an ecosystem to Sharden scale so you know it’ll always get better faster and cheaper regardless of the load inside the system and from the developer’s
Viewpoint is it easy to develop on is it secure to develop on is this is the platform taking a lot of hyper complicated things and abstracting them from me so I don’t have to worry too much about it like imagine how horrible it would be to be a database developer
And have to worry about where everything goes in memory it’s why they wrote SQL because they you do not want want to know that it’s too hard you know and so we’re getting there as an ecosystem and we’re building those abstractions into the ecosystem so the developer happy and
Then you know from the business Viewpoint do I have existential risk in this platform or am I hurting myself in this platform well do I have price predictability you know do I have a situation where Tuesday it’s 10 times more expensive than Monday or 10 times cheaper on Wednesday than it was on
Tuesday and also do I have existential risk in that my my app could crash and I lose all my money or a hacker could break in or do something like that you see so everybody looks at it with a kind of a slightly different lens and cardano
Is a product of tradeoffs just like ethereum is a product and salana is a product of trade-off it’s not like we’re better it’s just we chose different tradeoffs as an ecosystem and I think in the long term those trade-offs are the are much better for a decentralized holistic balance system than the
Trade-off that they chose and the market will ultimately decide you know one way or the other in the long term yeah so last question in terms of that all those things you me mentioned you know faster cheaper um continuing to be more scalable what for this year 2024 what
What would you say is being prioritized the the most in order to continue to scale properly or in the right direction so the Hydra program is working its way through and partner chains is becoming very developed and I think those two things are going to have a huge meaningful impact on the system
Um a lot of foundational research is being closed meaning papers are published they’ve gone through peerreview they’ve been accepted and people are happy with them and there’s two directions one is fast finality which is super important for Bridges but also important for DBS uh in commercial transactions so that’s oror Paris and
Then the other is um sharding you know so that’s the input endorsers and uh oror Leos workstream those are coming to a conclusion uh in the first half of the Year meaning that the research is done then it’s a community decision of how quickly we want to move on those types
Of things and what we’re trying to do is stand up an ecosystem where if the community really does want to move quickly on the layer one stuff they can’t uh the other Dark Horse which is seldom mentioned is plutus V3 is coming with zp 1694 and that includes BLS
Support when you look at all those Primitives there’s enormous House of work taking Halo 2 and combining it with Pluto ays and this other house of stuff that’s crypto Gobbledy for we’re getting recursion and rollups and that means all this stuff that’s happening in ethereum not only works on cardano works best on
Cardano you know so so we will be probably one of the dominant zero knowledge layers thanks to all the work in Midnight um and that is going to come to cardano as well ZK Bridges rollups all these types of things and that will have a huge scaling impact in certain
Domains in certain applications not all but some the other thing is with partner change you take a lot of the stuff that’s polluting the main chain and you can run it in the partner chain and they’ll be a lot happier there you know but it still is a service layer to
Cardano so we dap developers still get access to that stuff so it’s a multimodal approach you know there’s a a strong layer 2 game there’s a strong game of optimizing the base layer there’s a deep research pipeline for Next Generation protocols there’s some finishing work like getting Genesis in
And utx ohd in and these types of things a lot of optimization in terms of the ability to expand the block size um and then you know you got completely new capabilities like roll coming and partner chains coming you know that add so when you sum all that together
There’s a little something for everybody inside that scalability uh question it also just improvements in the libraries the development methodologies everybody’s kind of learning from each other they’re learning how to use the EU Tio model to make it more efficient the programming languages are getting more efficient look at the difference between
Plutus V1 and two terms of the space look at aen in terms of the space utilization and these types of things so more efficient languages and development techniques are another part and that’s your today’s scaling and then you know you look over a 3 five year Horizon it’s
All done you have full end to end zero knowledge you’ve have a beautiful layer 2 ecosystem that doesn’t require token it runs on Ada you know and it’s available to every dab you have uh you know a vibrant ecosystem of service layers that are bespoke built for the services they’re providing so that
Doesn’t have to transact on cardano just the asset management happens there you have a layer one that’s fully sharded and it’s only limitations and Network stack so that means you can go thousands of TPT you know it’s uh it’s a very good end to end ecosystem overall very
Balanced and plus you didn’t have to get rid of euto so you get all the program verification the formal methods you get DET terministic pricing especially when fee markets come in the tiered pricing idea that they have and these types of things you actually Peak through and get
You know price predictability for your transactions create markets for it yeah so all that’s coming you know and we’re speeding up not slowing down you you look at our pace of delivery as an ecosystem we have demonstrated the last two years the ability to pursue super difficult things in parallel midnight in
Parallel with partner chains in parallel with Hydra in parallel with mithil in parallel with onchain governance in parallel with Genesis in parallel with utx ohd in parallel with the construction of intersect I mean all of these things are happening in parallel whether critics want to admit it or not
And there’s literally like a thousand people across the of them you know in our organization other organizations of community involvement and that’s just on the core side and then you got the DAP ecosystem doing its whole thing and building all these things and writing sips you know and Adam Dean is doing
This and these gu’s doing this and this guy’s doing that that’s all happening in parallel too and then you listen to critics they say a ghost chain there’s nothing happening it’s like are just are you just stupid or are you just being dishonest there’s only two
Options yeah I get the I get the sense there’s no way I mean a lot of them are well informed of the crypto space there’s just I think they’re just maybe being some a little dishonest so you just you just mentioned midnight um I want to talk about that a little bit
It’s kind of a company incubated by by input Global and I so I saw once you said you can’t do a midnight without cardano so I want to ask what for the audience that hasn’t even that does is not aware of what midnight is what is midnight and
What exactly did you mean by that so midnight is a natural extension of a lot of R&D that we’ve done in trying to preserve and protect three basic human rights the freedom of Association Commerce and expression so one of the problems with blockchain Technologies is they can’t keep a secret so we’ve been
Trying to get blockchains to be able to keep a secret they’re really good at telling the truth that’s their thing but they can’t hide the private state of things and so if you think about real life business 99% of the time all business has a public side and a private
Side you create a bank account you maybe you’re a publicly known customer of JP Morgan Chase but they’re not allowed by the BSA to tell people how much money you have in your bank account so that’s the private side you you go and you go to a hospital and you get some treatment
Done okay you’re a patient at that hospital they can confirm that but they can’t say what they did to you that’s the private side of the relationship you go use a univers uh I was a university student okay great but they can’t reveal your grades that’s
Furpa these types of things right so the problem is how do you reconcile that blockchain land because they’re saying you’re going to take all the centralized institutions all the centralized applications all of these things and you’re gonna put them on a blockchain well if you do that in ethereum or
Cardano or Bitcoin or any of these systems all that stuff is now public has to be because they can’t keep a secret so the first generation of these Concepts was was transactional privacy that was Monero and zcash and these other things and they said oh okay well
We’re just going to have everything be private but the only thing that you can really be private is asset movements you send me a transaction I send you a transaction nobody knows okay but you can’t do smart contracts and the problem is if you want to do business on a
Blockchain we learned a little while ago you know with ethereum it’s pretty good idea to have Smart contracts so we started an R&D project six years ago to talk about how to do private smart contracts and it took us and the ecosystem as a whole was zexe we built kacina zexe came
From the zcash guys that long to figure out how to do it so midnight is the realization of that which means you can now have a public and a private side together with smart contracts so private smart contracts once you have that capability then you can start bringing real world businesses completely into
The blockchain space because you can take all your medical records and other things and now that you have private system but then you can take the public parts of the business and also run them there so that’s that web three with real life business now you can’t have that
Without cardano in that you need to launch it and there’s it’s really hard to launch a cryptocurrency these days as a layer one where do you get your liquidity from your decentralization from your network of frck from your security from all these things it took six years for cardano to grow to this
Scale and all these other guys launching layer ones they’re like God this is so hard we’re spending all this money and we’re just not really getting anywhere look at how many billions of dollars salana and aptose and polygon and all these other guys have had to spend to
Get some Network effect and get some launch so what we did is I recognized in 2016 what’s going to happen is you’re going get to a point where whatever layer ones you got you got and then people are going to use layer ones to bootstrap ecosystems and I wrote cardano SL and
Cardano cl I said cardano settlement layer and cardano control layer that’s what we called it back in 2016 why cardano so we created partner chains to be the CL component the the the the things that you launch and so midnight is a partner chain of cardano and it creates that that service of
Programmable confidentiality that ability to have a private State inside the system uh and now all the cardono applications will get that capability but you can sell that capability as a service to other ecosystems as well as an API call so you can sell that to ethereum apps you can
Sell that to bitcoin apps you can sell that to PKA dot or or other such things and from their perspective it looks like a layer two on their system even though it ends up settling on cardano and doing all those types of things what does that translate to is cardano’s open for business
Because you know what’s going to happen is somebody’s going to create a decentralized large language model and a de centralized social network and the centralized telecommunications company and blah blah blah and all those are going to fill out your service layer of cardano hundreds of them there and
They’re going to be selling those Services into other ecosystems those ecosystems pay back into the system and eventually it settles on cardano and then you know creates transaction flow into cardano that otherwise wouldn’t be there so midnight is really an our most advanced piece of technology we’ve ever worked on multi-resource consensus and
Recursive Starks and private smart contracts and my God it’s it’s a technological Marvel and it’s just been I’ve been tearing my hair out trying to figure out how to put it all together we have an amazing team of people like Adon Barack is an amazing CEO and a great CTO
Ben Beckman we have an incred team of cryptographers there and they’ve been diligently working on this for six years since before cardano actually launched there were the initial Concepts started coming into play and we started talking about it um you know the other side of it that’s really super cool this allows
Us to start looking at new tokenomics the dual token model so one token owns the system governs the system operates the system and one tokens the Fiel token which can have a variable monetary policy so once deflation like cardano the other one floats and that gives you predictable pricing you know that’s a
Super cool concept because if that model works you can reuse that model for any service layer like igon for example in decentralized hosting or World mobile for example with their Telco where there’s an ownership of the telecommunication capability but then there’s also the daily pricing of minutes and data on their Network and
These types of things which has needs variability if you have one token that prices both it’s overloaded it can’t actually accurately price and they ran into this with ethereum and their fees and these types of things so it’s also an exploration of dual tokenomics and how to get those tokenomics to to work
Appropriately and the other really really cool part of it is this is how you get regulated products into the cardano space like if you think of a security it has broker dealer it has a private State and a public State and you have to collect a lot of information and
Create a compliance circle around it well you read all the reports they want to bring trillions of dollars of Securities onto blockchains for instant settlement okay great you’re only going to do that if you have computational privacy so you need a good identity system prism and you need a good privacy
System midnight and those two things come together now you can do regulated business on the system W and that’s where all the growth is going to come from right same for mining medical records the same for you know getting user data but anonymizing it these types of
Things it’s it’s almost ironic you know cardano just very secluded right like on its I think I’ve heard you refer to it or thought of as an island for some time now right yeah it’s it’s ironic to think that this midnight could truly bring into play an opportunity for the industry to
To actually start kind of coming together and coexist in a in a whole entirely new way than it has before exactly because they no longer view cardano as an adversarial thing they say oh that’s our service layer and we we purchased the centralized infrastructure from it you know and chain link kind of
Open open that business up it didn’t really matter what host chain it’s on it sells to everybody so that’s the hope and there’s some great Ventures like layer zero for example that are already starting to talk around this cross blockchain ecosystem and Omni apps and these things and I think cardano is
Going to be a great Contender and we we’re going to be one of the best places for people to launch and we hybridized technology we took the substrate framework and basically learned from it and built a lot of cool stuff on top of it uh and now that framework I think is
Best in class for this type of model uh and then takes all the security reliability of cardano and cardano’s selling its trust it’s selling its security you know it’s the backbone of backbones it’s the most reliable cryptocurrency around it never goes down and can’t be hacked it’s got all these
Great properties about it that’s what you paid for with high assurance and peerreview and has and these things we might as well get what we paid for you know we spent so much time doing this as a community it would be a shame if we didn’t sell it you know and people enjoy
The security and reliability of this type of system so we’ll see where it goes but I’m very optimistic and hopeful and I think we have a lot of surprises and cool business model Innovation and ecosystem development Innovation that we brought to bear but generally speaking I think it’s just a beautiful piece of
Technology it’s a great blending of rust and JavaScript um there’s just an amazing proof stack uh a ton of incredible people are doing the best work of their careers to pull these things together and I say it always comes back to Ace freedom of Association Commerce and expression you can’t have
That in unless you have some degree of privacy you know look at how many people like look at a university you know the publicly pull people is the president of the University doing a great job yes he is doing a great job and then you do an anonymous poll is the
President of the University doing a great job [ __ ] no that guy’s an idiot we lost 30% of our endowment everybody hates us enrollments are down we’ve I don’t have any good graduate students all this type of stuff why do they say because they don’t Fe reprisal you need to have
Confidentiality in order to have honesty you know it’s the same for carbon markets you know you think okay we cop 28 we want to rebuild the whole world we want everything to be carbon neutral we want everything to be Equitable and fair well how do you get there if you don’t have confidentiality
In your supply chains and these types of things whistleblowers have protections well I just noticed the boss is dumping poison into the lake are you going to go publicly say that you know the boss will shoot you no you need privacy to be able to do these types of things like who in
Russia is going to be like yeah I’ll tell you the story about Vladimir Putin they have a problem where people just keep falling out of Windows in that country so how do you get honesty out of that country you can’t unless you have protection so you have to have that to
Be able to secure these markets and get things to go and we’re moving to a multi-polar world there’s the Chinese way of doing things and the Russian way of doing things the European and the American they’re not getting along anymore you know and so how do you move
Between these systems and preserve a universal human right within it you can’t in the conventional sense so you need some sort of system to be able to do that so I think this is a very good compromise it also allows you to do selective disclosures because if you
Have programmable privacy you know what you can do you can build into your smart contract disclosure so you can say okay well you know um if all my token holders get together and two-thirds vote Yes we’ll uh unblind the smart contract and we can see the state of it so we can
Know uh you know who did what where okay so you have a pedophile on your platform you know and they can say Hey you know we want to find out who that is and they can dox them and it doesn’t mean the government gets a back
Door you know so that’s the cool part about uh having programmable privacy and programmable things you can actually build selective disclosure regimes who would want to do selective disclosure you run a business you’re auditor you’re CFO the CEO certain key people in the business maybe just maybe they have god
Mode and they can see everything because they run the business and they’re legally liable for it but on the outside nobody should be able to see what’s going on in your business do you want your competitors knowing how much you’re paying your engineers or these types of
Things so we talk about Dows how the [ __ ] do you run a dow everybody oh we’re gonna dow we’re gonna dow we’re G oh my God we can’t wait to have a dow it’s gonna be so great okay but but let’s think about this you know do you really
Want everybody who works for the Dow to have publicly disclosed salaries do you want everybody work for the Dow to have their resume publicly accessible their social security numbers accessible and all these types of things probably not maybe the HR people can see it who’ve been given delegated authority and then
It starts looking like a co-op like Mund dragon or any of these things right but now it’s just on a blockchain so you have a public and a private side this is the only way to do that now cardano will be best in class for this no one has
These capabilities people are building up to them like expresso with Hyper plon and zky is thinking about it and all these other guys but we’re we’re light years ahead of them in terms of his capabilities so we will be first and best to market for the entire ecosystem
Open for business ready to go for all the developers and the major ecosystems and cardano is going to give that to the world so it’s a huge it’s a huge step forward and uh you know it’s our fault in that last year we didn’t do the best
Of jobs of explaining it you know I’ve been so close to midnight for so long and I love this project so much I just thought it was you know Common Sense and that’s the problem if you’re so close to something sometimes you don’t realize again that you have too much familiarity
And as a result you take things for granted and how you explain it and communicate it um and so some people thought this was like an adversarial thing and IO is now building another blockchain and they’re abandoning cardano and I like it’s kind of funny saying we’re abandoning cardano when
Like 80% of the people that work for iio are still cardano people it’s like if that’s abandonment I really want to know like what what uh what embracing means um well yeah I was going to ask you that because that is that’s like a headline really like Charles Charles and not and
Input output they’re working on midnight we told you cardano’s done they’re done with it you know it’s a brand new thing and I wanted you to speak to that a little bit because it’s it’s almost like it’s almost like opposite because I think Midnight’s going to benefit
Cardano like a lot it’s gonna bring millions of people to cardano land and actually make them care about cardano and think it’s awesome and unique and interesting and you know we’ve won if they care about midnight and they they’ve never even heard of cardano because at the end of the day it adds
Volume in transactions in real world utility to cardano and it makes our ecosystem holistic and better but you know part of it is also just people need to grow up a little bit you know not everything is duplicitous and and you know so many people have devoted their
Lives and their reputation and their and their the best years of their career to this project as a whole cardano and its extensions and it does get a little frustrating at times when you spend 10 years doing something saying the same thing every single year and then you
Never get the benefit of the doubt on anything so I get it that you don’t get it or we didn’t explain it right but for love of God can you just shut up about me not being devoted and loving this thing I’ve carried these logs on my back
For a long [ __ ] time you know and think just think it through we have everything to gain by making cardano stronger and we we have nothing to gain by leaving cardono you know it in in trying to build a completely new ecosystem from scratch the days of building new
Ecosystems is over it’s the days of now partnering with people creating liquidity alliances finding Mutual interests and standards that’s where you go you never leave people behind anymore you take them with you everywhere you go because they’re good people this is the best community in all of crypto the
Cardano it’s a smartest it’s the most capable it has some of the best ideas inside of it and also this is a community that always shows up no matter how bad it is 2 and a half cent Ada they show up $3 Ada they show up 25 cent Ada
They show up you know you host workshops 50 countries no problem at all everyone will be saturated and filled tell them come to Argentina for Constitutional Convention they say okay just make sure we don’t get robbed you know they’ll show up every day 247 so why would you
Leave those people behind you know you take them with you and that’s the point of midnight it’s like it takes the ship to new places and for the first time ever we now get to trade with ethereum we get to trade with Bitcoin we actually get to show there’s real value here and
Hopefully they they they take a second look and they realize that we’ve built something really beautiful and uh you know really special as an ecosystem and they come and stay and uh that adds a lot of value to everybody the adversarial days they’re over you know the the tribalism is over there’s no
More tribalism on the cardano side you know I understand there’s a lot of bitterness and people are pretty angry and uh rightfully so because we’ve been mistreated for so long but we’re never going to get ahead if we keep litigating the battles of the past and getting
Angry about the past the only way you get ahead is just reset restructure and uh and look to the Future and talk about how do we win tomorrow I love that that’s what I’m talking about because I that’s like my biggest thing in crypto because I obviously I cover a ton of
Cardano but I cover all I cover a lot of stuff and I I would enjoy the space so much more I think everybody would if there wasn’t that tribalism and because I don’t like confrontation to begin with in general let alone just like in the crypto space because it’s it’s it is the
Way it is so I love the fact that it seems like cardano organically and the way that these products are being developed and uh everything that’s happening it seems like cardano might lead the way in terms of bringing the space together because of all the Innovations that’s taking place here so
And breaking news I mean this is you’re this is crazy breaking news you’re not leaving cardano for midnight that’s crazy I know I broken right on the show I’ve decided that cardano is still my feature I love cardano but you know it’s a two-way relationship and cardano’s got
It aside like everybody’s role moving forward the point of intersect and onchain governance is you have to get real and you have to go from a precedent in an honorary role to a formal role and and my hope is that ioi can be the center of excellence for engineering and
Science I don’t really want to be in the business of growth hacking for cardano and figuring out how do we get another 10 million users or 200 million users or whatever I’ve had to do that you know in necessity because other core entities did not spend the money and did not
Measure up and that was their job and they didn’t do it so I said well you know I love this project I love these people I don’t want this to fail so I stepped up and a lot of community members stepped up too and they spent
Their own money out of their own pocket millions of people you know across the world who never met each other and they said we believe in this thing and it could be simple things like they just showed up and give away t-shirts or they sponsored a cardano booth at a local
Conference or something like that some people got tattoos the logo and they would just tell everybody this cardano this is so amazing cardano yay woo they went built something on cardano these types of things the value of cardano comes from the efforts of all those people collectively you know they they
Took personal accountability for all of it so it and may maybe it was actually for the best that it ended up the way it was because if there was just one Central entity that woke up every day to grow cardano people wouldn’t take that owner ship and they wouldn’t build that
Community for these types of things and uh you know the same happened with Bitcoin back in the day I’m old enough to remember the early days of Bitcoin and you know back then there was no money man we Bitcoin wasn’t worth anything you go you know Starcraft
Tournaments and like fifth prize was 25 Bitcoins it’s like ah [ __ ] I didn’t get the hundred bucks oh well I’ll take my 25 Bitcoin maybe one day it’ll be worth something you know it’s it was a but they were fun times because there was this camaraderie everybody just loved
Bitcoin everybody loved the philosophy and the ideals and we didn’t take ourselves too seriously you know as an ecosystem and where got a little crazy as when the money got involved and then the whole conversation changed too this cult-like mentality of Team orange will dominate and price go up we’re all great
People um so I hope we don’t turn into that that’s an anti-pattern of a community and uh so far it’s still such a collaborative collegial environment uh and there’s no reason to ever leave that it’s it’s home for me yeah cool all right well we’re going on an hour and
Half here I I do have one more question though because I I was wondering you know through through the Journey of cordano and your time in the crypto space what would you say the biggest challenge so far that cardano has overcome and what’s the biggest challenge now lying ahead for
Cardano well I mean the biggest challenge was relevance you know to inspire enough people to actually take it seriously and for it to survive we’ve been in the top 10 basically since launch and everybody Year bye has invested a lot of time effort and and money and uh and mind share into a
Collective success and for that to have staying power and durability is pretty remarkable I mean if you take a look at the projects in 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021 2022 2023 now 2024 they’re all different yet cardano’s still there in each one of those years it’s pretty remarkable when
You think about that and for it to stay relevant stay evolving stay growing is is an extraordinary thing and it’s it’s highly undervalued I think you know even just the criticism of it the fact that every year it’s still being criticized like how many people are criticizing NXT
Right now you know how many people are criticizing bit sharers right now how many people are criticizing steam right now they’re not they don’t even think about it the fact that they hate us says we’re still relevant right we’re still in the conversation we’re still there
The fact that they even say ghost chain and they know to say ghost chain it says you’re still there you know um it’s like that celebrity will never go away it’s just you keep seeing him in movies you’re like I hate that guy why is he still famous I don’t know it’s so
Cardano’s there you know and that’s that was its greatest challenge is to stay relevant and stay thriving and growing and I’m very proud that not only did we overcome it we we Thrive terms of the greatest upcoming challenge onchain governance is the single hardest thing you can do building governments is hard
If we were good at it United States would be running great name one government you can look to and say it’s perfect and it’s just everything’s great can’t humans are flawed you know we have we have uh problems we have uh inability to see past our own biases we have
Cognitive flaws that make it really hard for us to coordinate and coordinating in a trustless environment at scale so many different languages so many different cultures different value sets it’s never been done and so uh if cardano does it single biggest innovation in Collective governance in human history it’s worth a
Nobel Prize so that’s what we’re facing right now and we’re thriving but we can’t lose vigilance we have to keep pushing forward but in solving that problem it’s a it’s a much greater problem than Satoshi ever solved Satoshi solved a huge problem you know with h with proof of work and and
Resolving Byzantine generals with proof of work but it wasn’t even close to anywhere near the complexity of onchain governance and and being able to make that effective and efficient and recursive so that’s the big challenge um everything else is just a computer science problem like how do we get more
Scale it’s like oh yeah throw 50 graduate students and give them enough time and they’ll come up with amazing super protocol and and you’ll have your McGuffin and you know you go you go kill some monsters and you you get your McGuffin it’s like an RPG you know it’s
Like got to go slay the dragon then you get the sword and then you use the sword to slay The Wraith and then you kill The Wraith you get the Lich and you know it’s like yeah you’re going from one cave to the next cave it’s like great
It’s it’s just a game you you could solve that decentralized governance is like okay let’s reach a new Collective state of humanity and like have Collective wisdom and Collective superintelligence these that’s like AI alignment it’s a super hard problem um and uh that is the problem I most want
To solve in my career because you know what the the the hidden truth of it is is that’s not a cryptocurrency problem that’s a human problem so if it works with cardano we can do that with a corporation we can do that with your club we can do that with a government
Which means we can rewrite the governments of humanity and make much better governments that are more inclusive and fair and are capable of solving real problems so if we solve it there we solve it for all of humanity and that’ll be the single greatest change in human history you know over our
Lifetime every government in the world is going to change we don’t really believe it but look to my grandfather he grew up during the Great Depression and uh that was the rise of the Soviet Union the Nazi party that was World War II all these things
And at any moment the world could have looked one way or the other had the wrong people won the war every one of us would be speaking a different language living a different lifestyle a lot of us wouldn’t even exist so the world went in a particular
Direction and he lived through all of that in his Arc of his life and his great-grandfather lived through a completely different Arc the rise of electrification and trains and mechanization and all this stuff and his grandfather lived through Napoleon running around unifying Europe and these types of things you see how these things
Change right so every 50 to 100 years the whole human race reboots the way things work and this is the next reboot cycle that we’re going through right now and the work we do with cardano is a proof of concept for a new way of governing and managing people and humans
Getting together so that’s our challenge to overcome and if we do it we just discover the holy grail and we got to take it and show everybody that’s our next challenge after that is to convince the world that this is the way to go and
If we get there then we end up old men looking back at a world that’s a lot more fair than the one we grew up in you know that that has honesty and integrity inside of it so that’s why you can never leave you know because the problems are
So seductive it’s like what else what am I going to do in my life I could go be a bison Rancher and sit on the ranch and just like oh this is fun it’s good to have money but do you really want to have money in a total a totalitarian
Government going back to Jack ma he was the one of the rich guys and most powerful guys in China and now he’s a nobody because the governance strcture decided to purge him look at all the Russian oligarchs that ran a foul of Putin they were super powerful they
Yachts and private jets beautiful women life is good dachas you know the eyes Galore then suddenly they just they caught a a case of falling out of a window they caught a case of drinking some ponum tea now they’re gone so you know it’s no no good to be a rich person
In a totalitarian Society because it’s good until it’s not and when it’s not it’s just as bad as the rest of them you get go logged so the only thing that really matters is the Pres preservation protection of freedom and liberty and making sure that you’re a
Good custodian of it for the next generation and that’s what we do here that’s that’s our task that’s what we do every day when we wake up whether it be midnight and making sure we can create blockchains that can keep us secret because that’s required for our our
Human rights or it be cardano with the centralized governance and showing how to get a lot of people together who don’t like each other or know each other to agree on something and move forward and actually have a good result uh from it or building free and fair Financial
Marketplaces where you get to be your own bank or banking the unbank in Africa and connecting the unconnected in Africa so they have unrestricted access to the internet these things this is what we do this is who we are as an ecosystem it’s not sexy or glorious and as you can see
Every day we get criticized brutally and harshly and unfairly and sometimes fairly but just like waking up every morning I got to go to that cold plunge and I look at the water and I know it sucks but you know what I know on the other side it’s going to be better you
Know because you get a big rush afterwards and you’re like yeah and I also did the hardest thing in the day at the beginning of the day so that’s what we’re doing in cardono right now we’re doing the hardest thing possible right now and everything else is downhill from
There it’s just a it’s just like slaying the dragon or something I oh yeah I can do that you know I’ll just read the tutorial on it that’s another great analogy I think to end to end the chat here is uh uh taking that cardano cold plunge and I I
Appreciate you man coming on the channel chatting chatting with the community I appreciate you taking that cold plunge every day as we kind of hustle and uh is there any any final words you have for the for the audience out there well I need all of you to take the cold plch
Join intersect intersect mb.com join it and uh become part of it become a member of it um you know uh participate in the Sip process build on cardono uh and if any anything just learn the philosophy of it even if you’re not a cardano fan keep Liberty in your heart that’s the uh
One big contribution the United States made to the world For Better or For Worse we started the revolution sometimes we’re not good custodians of it I’d argue right now we’re terrible custodians of it but uh it left a lot of people around realizing the best way of
Doing things is when people are free and uh these systems blockchains and cryptocurrencies they’re ultimately at their core systems of Freedom that are also mature enough to realize humans are deeply flawed people and some cases you can’t trust people in the long run so you have to create systems that are
Self-regulating so understand the concepts of why we’re here it’s not about money go up token go up it’s deeply philosophical and if we fully embrace them we’re going to live in a much better World cool well Charles thanks again man I I appreciate you we got to do it again
Let’s we waited two years this time maybe next time we won’t wait as long but I I have fun talking with with you and uh God bless you my friend and and keep hustling out there cheers cheers and if you’re out there everybody please make sure share this video subscribe if
You’re not a subscriber smash the like I’ll see you in the next one God bless
50 Comments
Great stuff, thanks for making it happen 🙏
time flies but Charles is still, by far, the most inspiring character of the blockchain space. His incredibly comprehensive understanding of how DLTs can heal the world, with real-world utility, is uncomparable. This man is a blessing for us all, really.
As always it was a pleasure to hear Charles speak with passion about Cardano ecosystem and projects like Midnight! People need to wait two more month and there will be Mehen USDM USD baked stable coin on Cardano.
Charles is awesome. Keeping the price down until it is built up then it will soar. Load up get at least 100 thousand ada you will be worth billions when it pops. He is a man of the people. Seriously folks buy a lot of ada. Hold it for three years then you will see the power in your money. You will be able to do good things with it. Not financial advice.
Absolute Vapour ware.
Doesn't even have stablecoins.
Ada will drop out of the top 10, and I'll come back to comment just to remind you all.
Too much time spent on what others think about Cardano. Would be better use of time if more of the time was spent on what's actually happening on Cardano now and going forward. Its off-putting to keep listening to Charles about what other people are saying about Cardano. Just my observation
This was great him speaking about midnight like we didn’t understand the technical side of it, great job Dan🎉❤
One of the more outstanding and involved interviews I've ever seen with CH on the state of the Cardano! The fact that it's explained so that non-technical folks like myself can understand is a huge plus and the icing on the cryptographic cake! Well done!
Jaw dropped… one of the greatest and selfless minds 🎉❤
🚀🚀🚀
Great interview!
How’s that make you feel? Wth kind of question is that Dan. Come on man!
Superb interview-the future IS bright
As always, a great analysis. Newcomers often wonder if it's too late to navigate the financial market, but the market is always unpredictable. Trading has more advantages than simply holding, so it's important to learn before diving in. Active trades are necessary to ride the market's waves. Thanks to Flora Elkin’s insights, daily trade signals, and my dedication to learning, I've been increasing my daily earnings. Kudos to the journey ahead!
You know ots bad when your kid says hey there is fake michael saylor trying to steal bitcoin. This AI scam is ridiculous
Dang Charles!!! You’re an amazing human!!!
I thought you too fell out last bull run when you called this project a scam
Do we need this level of decentralization for everything ?. I don’t think all things need maximum decentralization. Some things benefit from small amounts of decentralization and high performance.
Charles stop playing on the ranch with your cattle and crack the whip a bit more !!!!!!!
Charles referred to Putin but forgot the Clintons and Obamas. I will fall out of a window this week!!! Or drown!! 🙂
If its so good why the price sucks because its a sucker coin it knows only way down bitcoin up ada down 😂😂😂
USDC & CARDANO ❤
Love ADA, Dan please push for USDC. Please use your voice in the space 🙏🏼 Thank you
Charles is one smart and seriously worldly dude
Chuck is a philosophical man, and he is doing the best for us the people in the long run and people hate on him and Cardano…it's silly
If I knew Dan that Charles Hoskinson was lining your pockets I would have never invested in this crap coin. Well I know now and Im glad I sold and invested in a fairly launched, no premined or pre-allocated coin. The best PROOF or WORK crypto Kas
Do you know why Cardano isnt able to get a stable coin from circle, why other organizations snub cardano, because the root of it is evil people. Evil people can tell who they can corrupt and become part of their club. If you dont fit that archetype, then you’re an enemy.
Charles is awe-inspiring. Great interview. Cheers.
Yeah! Celcius!
Great video, awesome Collaboration with Charles.
🤷🏽♂️I wonder if Circle has acted the way it has given that SEC has inspired a lot of fud where Cardano is concerned which has led to it being wrongfully delisted from some exchanges on the grounds of regulatory non compliance due to being an alleged security…which it's not.
USDC don’t want to be a native token?
To be honest, why don't you try to get in touch with Paxos or Tether to get their stablecoins in our ecosystem?
If Circle don't wants, why the hell don't you talk with Tether and Paxos!!!
Few people can talk over my head. However, Charles consistently talks over my head on a technical basis. People I could just have a 6 hr conversation with if I ever had the chance.
Why don’t Circle want to play ball omg it’s personal it’s personal 😦 BUT we will survive
What is your opinion on trilliant ? Either one of you ?
For governance, I'd say put an AI as decision maker and listen to it for the best of Cardano
I appreciate that he doesn't dumb it down. We should never stop having vocabulary tests.
All my investments ended up coincidentally being anti globalist and are thus attacked by the media…. Tesla, Palantir, Cardano lol. At least Palantir escaped it's bad media with it's last earnings
Seems like it’ll never launch
Puff piece. Thank you!
very Pluto in Aquarius
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My top pick for this bull run are Verasity, Illuvium and Xeventy. The last one has the biggest potential.
50x can be expected by the end of the year with Xeventy. Huge potential
Hi Charles and Dan. Great eye opener and very informative. Logan keeps poking you, was he trying to interrupt you? 😊
Sorry guys but Cardano is one of the worst crypto projects last two years. The price is going down and down and everybody are waiting for some pump but may be will never go back to previous all time high!
BILL GATES 2.0 LEGGO!!!