Crypto Regulation News! Gary Gensler, SEC DebtBox, Elizabeth Warren Lies, Crypto Bills, John Deaton

Ron Hammond of the Blockchain Association joins me to discuss:
– SEC chair Gary Gensler on CNBC
– If Biden wins election what happens to Gary Gensler?
– SEC vs Debtbox situation
– Treasury representative confirms limited use of Digital Assets by Hamas exposing Elizabeth Warren lies
– Janet Yellen calls on Congress to pass regulations
– Report that Patrick McHenry and Maxine Waters have agreement on Stablecoins
– John Deaton vs Elizabeth Warren

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⏰ Time Stamps ⏰
00:00 Intro
01:23 Gary Gensler on CNBC
04:18 Biden wins what happens to Gary?
07:08 SEC vs Debtbox
10:32 Elizabeth Warren crypto lies exposed
15:09 Janet Yellen crypto regulations
22:15 John Deaton vs Elizabeth Warren
26:15 Upcoming crypto hearings
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And I can probably say this too confidently I don’t think I see a republican who voted against skler the first go around see what’s happened in the past 3 or 4 years and say I’m actually going to go for uh strange my vote and vote for him again I I have not

Seen that in my conversations with uh variety of Senate offices so um he’s losing folks not gaining Folks this content is brought to you by uphold which is a great crypto platform that I’ve been using since since 2018 uphold that has all the top cryptocurrencies Bitcoin and all the altcoins in fact they have 260 Plus cryptocurrencies on their platform you can also trade precious metals stable

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In the Des description welcome to the thinking crypto podcast you’re home for cryptocurrency news and interviews with me today is Ron Hammond who’s the director of government relations at the blockchain association Ron great to have you on always great to be on Tony thanks for having me Well Ron as I always say

You’re the man to talk to because you got your finger on the pulse of what’s happening in DC with crypto so let’s start with Gary genser uh this week the SEC chair Gary genser went on CNBC reiterated his same statements about crypto and how he doesn’t endorse

Bitcoin and so forth what were your takeaways from that yeah uh so we were watching that interview me he goes tnbc at squat box quite decent amount what struck me though is Joe Karn being a lot more um I guess you push back or mean I say aggressive maybe is another word for

It but the way that he was pushing on SEC chairman I mean again usual reporters they do push here and there but uh this is a very firm line of questioning from Joe that was uh kind of shocking because you know usually you want to give Defence to the regulator

But he was really pushing get saying look you know again you’re losing these court cases here your your rationale and your logic is really starting to fall through and I think that’s kind of at least for us personally it was a sign of hey look how far we’ve come you know

Look we’re having even the Anor pushing back saying like look I just think you’re in the wrong here uh and the way you’re going about it just isn’t working and we’ve seen that trick late to Capitol Hill a lot too where you know it’s not just for crypto it’s the ESG

Front he’s pushing heavily on that are really um jeopardizing a lot of the moderate Democrats especially in the Senate um there’s also some other more sides of like you know private equity and such where there’s a whole constituent of Republicans and Democrats who really care about that industry for

Their state or their District so he’s really making a lot of enemies again being very aggressive with with his approach to uh regulation and regulation by enforcement for the case of crypto and Rule making for the other Industries and so uh I think it’s kind of a sign

That a you know this man of coming as the White Knight to save folks from private Equity or from crypto it hasn’t really panned out his uh also like I guess his stature and demeanor is also a little more uh you know defensive I

Would say you know a lot more he was he was the Arbiter of Truth and we’re seeing now folks in the media and right on TV to his face really pushing back there so um again it’s a public perception battle and I think we’re starting to really make a turn

Especially when it comes to the crypto side for the SEC but uh does That Trick the policy a you know it’s a little different uh obviously legislation takes a long time um but I think the courts have really emboldened um both folks just normally saying that I think the

SEC is taking the wrong approach here but at the same time all saying it’s pretty uh obvious your argument is not holding water here and you keep doubling down on it and it’s a really risky strategy and it’s been really backfiring recently so uh we’ll see how this you

Know she’s going to be probably in front of the house fin service committee as well Senate banking later on this year you know he at least goes once a year so I’m sure that’s going to triculate to those hearings when we’re going to see again Republicans and Democrats really

Hitting him uh and pushing back on how aggressive he’s been on crypto and also the multitude of other issues uh within B SEC yeah absolutely um hard question for you we got the election coming up Biden may win or he may lose now let’s say Biden does win do you think Gary

Gensel will remain as chair of the SEC uh we have rumors that he wants a treasury job but also look with all these bad Optics and all these losses Biden says uh I’m bringing in someone else what do you think no it’s a very real possibility and I’ve been warning

This uh you know for a couple years now because if you recall uh you know it depends on really on the nominee for each agency the Senate is the one that confirm 100 votes you know some pass with 80 votes some pass with 51 uh and

Then in some cases they have failed like um you know we’ve seen that happening at I think Department of Labor and a few other agency like the OCC where they put a nominee up and they haven’t been able to get enough Democrats to Rally around their own um so it’s very likely that

The Senate will flip uh you know West Virginia is going to go proba Republican Montana potentially Ohio potentially um so we’re have Republicans in control and if we have a Democrat Administration then we’re gonna have to find a way to get enough Republicans to support genser

If he was going to go for that second term um I believe it was six Republicans last time voted for uh Gensler to be confirmed including FKS like Cynthia lumus who you know like many in the industry believe it’s better to have someone who understands technology versus someone who doesn’t but obviously

We have someone who understands technology to an extent and has a vendetta to say the least and I think uh again especially with this issue but also several others I mean take Kristen gilbran for example a pro crypto Democrat will she vote for Gary Gensler next go around uh it’s unclear but

Especially with ESG with these other states and more moderate Democrats they probably going to push back and maybe not vote for him so the math doesn’t really add up for chair Gensler if it’s a republican um uh Senate again a lot of things can happen in the meantime we

Could still have you know three or four Republicans join the Democrats and supporting him but if I were him I would be very concerned about how aggressive the rul making is and let’s just say even if it does stay Democrat in the Senate there are enough vocal Democrats

Who have vocally been opposed to a lot of things Gary gunler is doing on other sides that it could be enough to even at this current as the Senate is made up right now let’s say there was not a vote to happen today on Gensler it’d be a lot

Slimmer if not he may not even get 50 votes uh if it were held today just because of the number of Democrats and Republicans who probably changed your view and I can probably say this too confidently I don’t think I see a republican who voted against gunler the

First go around see what’s happened the past three or four years and say I’m actually GNA go for uh change my vote and vote for him again I I have not seen that in my conversations with a variety of Senate offices so um he’s losing folks not g folks yeah absolutely and

We’re just seeing a lot of this playing out in the media and there’s so much coverage of these losses and one of the things I wanted to uh talk to you about was the debt box situation where the judge is threatening to sanction uh the SEC lawyers the sec’s asking for a

Voluntary dismissal um is that echoing at all in DC are members of Congress picking up on that because it’s like the arbitrary and capricious thing I mean it’s just like they’re lying to the courts exactly and I I think um Congress did pick up on it and again I want to

Focus on the Senate again the Senate is the one that’s important uh you know I know the house can impeach certain agency heads we saw that recently with DHS secretary but that’s going nowhere in the Senate the Senate is the actual body that can vote to confirm or deny

Someone’s position at an agency head and we saw I believe it was four to five Republicans send a letter to the SEC to Gensler on the de box case really highlighting the failed strategy on the legal front and also the posture of the SEC in terms of really being aggressive

And both the uh the leading up to this case itself and how they acted to the uh company and uh you know we saw you know personal testimonies from those at debt Box about how much it has affected their lives and their livelihood uh and their

Personal lives as well and so um you it really struck a chord here in DC especially again more on the Republican side saying this is a pretty bad screw up the courts have calling you out here and we were doubling down to show that uh this is not unacceptable and the

Regulation by enforcement uh is not working uh and also it is really dampening your ability to keep the SEC as this you know non-partial regulator and the idea that they’re technology neutral it’s very obvious that this is not as technology neutral of an agency and they’re willing to bend the rules in

Some cases to get the outcome that they want um and I think that’s uh really has bitten them a lot recently and uh we’ll see if it you know happens in other cases but it does you know really send a signal that there’s a loss of confidence especially within Congress and the

Republican side on the sc’s ability to properly police and properly follow the rules uh when it comes to uh you know this court case in particular but other issues as well like take Sab 121 staff account in Bolton 121 where banks are having basically have the double count

Uh the crypto that they custody on their balance sheet uh it’s preventing B melon and others from getting into this space and it just really hasn’t made a lot of sense and a lot of folks say hey look I think we’re going to have a legal action

Here I think Banks and crypto are both United here it’s a pretty large Force um and the SEC decided to go with this rulemaking and it was actually the uh government accountability office at GAO uh they basically said actually you should have gone to Congress and made

Sure that this was actually okay with them first uh and Congress took notice and so now there’s a Republicans and Democrats in the house and the Senate teeing up with this called Congressional review act basically they’re going to try to reverse the rule um and we’ve

Seen it done with other agencies in the past it’s not too often often um net neutrality was probably one of the biggest ones that folks may remember years ago um but again it is really sending a message that he is losing Democrats here he’s losing a lot of the

Support um and the champions for Gary guner they’re not as loud as they used to be um are a lot smaller than they used to be as well so uh very you know treacherous area for Cher Gensler especially as he heads into a potential renomination U if Biden were to be the

Nominee uh or sorry the uh the president elect come 2024 November so speaking of Champions for Gary gcer Elizabeth Warren was of course pedaling The Wall Street Journal uh data about Hamas using crypto for uh you know nefarious activities and so forth but yesterday or I should say

This week Tom emmer had a treasury representative there was a hearing confirm that it’s very limited and of course the majority of these things are done in cash and Fiat um what were your takeaways from that yes definitely so I think the really important thing to highlight especially when it comes to um

You know hearing it from a government official versus hearing it from someone in the industry is that you know this is a matter of fact here and of course there’s always an angle a lot of agencies take but especially when it comes to treasury facts are facts and

They’re very much uh you know cogntive of that you know we might disagree with some views but at the end of the day they have the facts here and they can see a lot of the data sets uh and they have explicitly testified in front of Congress on Wednesday saying that yeah

That Wall Street Journal report didn’t say Wall Street Journal explicitly I believe but they just said reports in the media are definitely overblown and it’s it’s a little frustrating in terms of it took what almost six months to get to that point and know at least on

Capitol Hill both you know within the Congressional offices like McKenry and Hill and also within the industry itself like blockchain Association any other groups and companies and folks in the media as well they have been really pushing back in this narrative and have shown factual proof that has been

Disproven and Elize Warren doubled down and I think actually the one of the worst things that she did in terms of just like political missteps here was the calling out the National Security advisors who um has co-signed our letter we sent a letter to elizabth Warren pushing back on that narrative we came

Back with the facts and we thought it’d be better to have folks who used to work at doj FBI finsen treasury those who were actually were working in the government who saw this who had probably no other things that are more in a classified setting and they’re pushing

Back on that and she didn’t uh her response and she decided to respond was more calling out those individuals and saying you’re tainted because you work for the crypto industry and I I love a lot of folks who responded back saying hey look actually I I love my country I

Don’t abandon my you know principles for joining you know a private sector like I’m here to advance uh American values American ideals American businesses um so it’s you know a little hypoc critical and in fact some of the folks yesterday I was at a hearing in the house on

Crypto crime some of the very folks who signed that letter were the ones pushing back on that narrative and they did it in a very uh I wouldn’t say like you know sincere Manner and a lot of them were saying look I during my time at ex

Agency or ex law enforcement group I saw this and it was not the case that you know or as know large as Elizabeth Warren is portraying it as and last thing I will say is you know I think folks have started to realize you know

We saw this from day one but this is kind of the reality is that whenever there’s a political opportunity we’ve seen uh LZ War and other crypto Skeptics really jump on the National Security emergency and blame crypto and again two years ago Russia invades Ukraine it was

Crypto who was responsible for it for some of these folks it took about six months but we you know had the facts disproven it uh and now October 7th happened it took about six months and now we’ fin rolled back of okay that was the wrong assumption here and it is a

Little frustrating that every single time there’s a global crisis especially in this stage that there is someone who says it’s crypto’s problem and usually don’t have enough facts or circumstances to really justify that and they might have some data sets uh but they don’t have the full picture and you know when

It takes time to get the full picture you get the whole data sets and you get the government actually weighing in here and pushing back on those narratives uh it’s you know it’s feels great as uh you know to see all the work pay off but at

The same time we’ve kind of lost six months here where now we you know folks just throwing road block after Ro block no we don’t need stable coin legislation we need to worry about the money laundering and that has been really frustrating because now that we’ve uh you know Worked six

Months to get to the point of defeating this narrative and showing the facts and again it’s not like our story one it’s our facts our facts the government’s facts showed it uh we had to go back to now saying all right let’s go back to stable coins let’s go back to sab1 121

Let’s go back to Market structure let’s go back to Fig actually getting Congress to move here and um it’s it is a little frustrating but that’s how politics works sometimes yeah it’s it is frustrating and but like you said the facts are uh giving us the victory here

Even though it’s you know painful to go through the process um the facts are on our side now something interesting well at least I found it interesting Janet Yellen Secretary of the Treasury was before the house two weeks ago and she called distinctly for Congress to pass regulations for stable coins and crypto

Spot markets twofold question what were your thoughts on that and is this a maybe a bit of a pivot by the Biden Administration because they see Elizabeth Warren is lying they see Gary genser is taking losses the election’s coming up that they want to get some things done

Here yeah I think it’s a combo of a lot of things but I will say uh you know Jan yel has been saying this for quite some time she said Congress needs to act uh she’s testified that before uh you know I think it was last year she said the

Same thing the presidential working group on stable points in 2021 December said the exact same thing this is what we can do as Regulators but we have a gap and Congress needs to fill it with stable coin regulation and legislation and uh you know Maxine Waters from uh

The house Democrats she was working on some effort there McKenry has toen over that effort since the Republicans took over Congress in the house um and we are seeing at least in the house the house is a very different story than the Senate the house on both sides aisle

There is a recognition that stable coin legislation needs to get done and there is you know a difference of opinion on a few things here and there like you know it should be the states who are the main regulator should it be the FED who’s the main regulator so there are still these

Hurdles and existed for about almost nine months now um there are reports that there is some coal of an agreement of sorts from my sources it’s still not official yet there there’s still a lot they working out um but when you pivot over to the Senate it’s a completely

Different story that committee even though they cover the same exact topics they’re talking about housing and fentanyl which are very important issues but they’re very much in the different polar opposite of priorities here um and so we haven’t seen stable Point legislation really percolate to the um you know the chair level you

Know shared Brown the man who decides what gets voted on what doesn’t get voted on in the senate for at least banking issues we haven’t seen him really focus on this issue um and we’ve seen Treasury and very other agencies really loudly State we need this from

Congress we need this now uh otherwise you know we’re gonna have to act or act as much as we can and that’s the unfortunate situation you know at least in Congress especially when it comes down to the hierarchy of things it can take just one individual to really put a

Slowdown on legislation and of course there are ways to try to get around that and we’ve been exploring that for quite some time but I think you know the thing to highlight is that the house on both sides of the aisle recognize that this is a major issue the treasury Department

And the other Regulators say we need stable coin legislation and the Senate is still that large roadblock right now and McKenry and others are trying to overcome it uh and we’re trying to assist in any way we can um but at the end of the day one man can really hold

Up a lot in the Senate um on a variety of topics and in this case it’s a lot of crypto legislation I mind you again though a lot of it hasn’t come out of the house yet still needs to go through the whole house process but usually you

Kind of see a simultaneous effort in the Senate saying hey look this is going to come down the pipeline let’s start getting our ducks in a row in terms of what our priorities are when it comes to stable coins or crypto and that just hasn’t happened yet in the Senate yeah

Because I saw a Politico report yesterday highlighting Patrick McKenry uh stating that him and Maxine Waters are aligned on stable coin regulations so man fingers crossed that you know even even if it just gets out of the house that would be a big victory because then it’s the next hurdle is

Just the sen it but it just has to get out the house right which it seems to be the easier path for now um at least a less yeah so I want to I’ll push back a little bit on there’s agreement so far with McKenry and St and uh waters on

Stable coins again the FED is in the room Treasures in the room um from my sources talking to camps or folks in all these camps here there’s not full agreement yet there’s agreement they got to do something there’s agreement on most things but there’s you know there’s

Still a couple hiccups allegedly so once those get ironed out we again hopefully soon it’s been a couple months but the talks are happening and we hope that happen soon um I do think we will see a house floor votes on Sable coins uh I do

Think we’ll see a house floor vote on Market structure and same with Sab 121 unclear if it’s all GNA be one big Bill they’re going to combine together it’s going to be separate bills uh but I think we know by Springtime we’re going to have a vote on crypto legislation and

One of those three buckets are all three and then the pressure is going to be really put on the Senate um but the one other Factor taking all this is the house is in complete disarray the government shuts down March 2nd the Congress just left yesterday for two

Weeks uh at least for the house senate only a week um and they’re GNA have to go back to the funding the government this is like what the the fifth fourth third Government funding fight we’ve had the past year it takes up a lot of time

And then we go back to doing the same thing over and over again and again a large part of this is just the house of Republicans largely not being able to get their act together they’re dealing with also the thinnest margin ever for a uh Congressional majority you know it’s

Only I think three seats right now uh and you know there’s there’s enough folks more than three whove caused problems and that’s why the house has been such a disarray so we have to take into consideration even if McKenry is able to get the an agreement he has to

Also trying to find time to find a vote uh time slot in the house which is surprisingly difficult they map out these votes months in advance and of course everything gets jumbled up um but the question is McKenry is in his last year and he is pushing hard and kly too

The house of Republican own because he held the uh the speakership for uh when you know the sink the ship was sinking to sorts back in October and September of last year so uh they do ow difference he has uh definitely bought a lot of Goodwill on both sides of the aisle but

Uh there is a lot of other General political mess including the shutdown Ukraine Israel the border that has really thrown time uh off for a loop so we could be you know having the same conversation in three months it’s just unfortunately the politics has gotten really nasty and it’s not crypto it’s

Just everything else is happening and a lot of that’s the election too feel in that ah Ron sometimes I I get so discouraged with government not just specific crypto but like you know all these other things because they just can’t get their act together yeah hey Congress still acts faster than the

Courts I know a lot of folks are saying let’s just screw all DC let’s go with the courts let’s also remember the courts you don’t know what the outcome is um it’s not as transparent and at least in Congress you can see the Amendments you can see the bills these

Things take time there is a pathway here so you know I want to make sure folks understand at least in Congress we have a lot more of a sense of you know when things are moving and they’re slowly moving but they’re moving um and at least we know what the outcome is going

To be largely whereas the courts a lot it can go in a lot of directions and that can really throw and a wrench and done many things so if you think the courts are going to get something done I mean the coinbase case could be another three years plus so let’s not forget

Cars actually might be faster despite all this hecticness going on oh man um I want to get your thoughts on Attorney John Deon potentially signaling that he may run against Elizabeth Warren and of course he’s been a champion in the crypto industry um in in the Ripple case and in other things

As well any thoughts on that or is it too early to kind of speak on this I I I know John through a lot of his work uh with ripple and the xrp Army and a lot on Twitter and his book as well he’s got a great story you know I

Think uh and I’ve ran uh campaigns before my time in politics I was I ran three state senate campaigns in Texas uh and campaigns are tough um and Elizabeth Warren has got a war chest she’s also got Name ID she has recognition um we have had conversation

With candidates on both sides of the aisle who have expressed um you know they don’t like her approach or they don’t think she’s the right fit for Massachusetts um but when they did the math it does get a little difficult she does seem to be pretty entrenched and

You need to build you know years to get uh name recognition to really unseat folks um and also too I will say likes on Twitter don’t always equivalate to votes but at the same time I think it’s important that you know JN is public s saying this because we’ve had a lot of

Private conversation with folks um some who are serving in Congress some who want to serve in Congress obviously um and a lot of times you just see a really daunting figure of Elizabeth Warren and for years a lot of folks were scared just to attack not just her because it’s

A tough race to begin with but because of the political backlash especially for Democrats from a very you know large uh Progressive uh Champion for some folks uh so I think it’s it’s really good to see John public saying hey look I’m not happy with how the direction of the

State is going or at least what the senator is taking uh our state I think I can do better um you know we’ll see if he launches campaign but I will say again these usually take years to to form and especially in the Senate it takes millions of dollars so um it’ll be

A tough slog um but who knows I mean maybe he doesn’t go this year but in six years he comes back and uh he’s built a more of a recognition and a lot of folks in Massachusetts uh support him but I’ll also say too let’s not forget the

Democrats side of the aisle uh again like I I will stress we have talked to several Democrats who wanted to run for that seat and there have been uh you know for various reasons why they didn’t decide this was the right time but that could change in the next couple years

Yeah maybe John putting out the signal out there will uh have bring in the rest of the folks right because then you start to build kind of the opposite uh faction of it that hey all these people are trying to get that seat and maybe it’s time for Elizabeth Warren to to

Move on right um you know if it’s one it’s it’s tough but if you get a group it’s it’s different and I will say she has made a lot of enemies and like kind of like Gensler and a lot of very powerful in some cases very rich enemies

And so it’s also important to take in consideration there’s the banks private Equity there’s um you know I I guess what was the other one that she was a big sandwich I guess they were focusing on there’s a whole cohort of fitos Oreos exactly she has really made a lot of

Enemies but again she’s also been uh you know there’s a lot of consumer groups and a lot of folks in the Progressive side who do look up to her as the leader so um but if you want to look for you know funding for a campaign is always

The toughest part um but when you have folks with Deep Pockets especially industries that have been the target for a lot of her attacks that have led to policy mean take Bitcoin mining for example like a lot of her efforts have started what we’re starting to see over

At the EPA now of trying to you know regulate more and more on the mining side um and that’s just one industry there are several other out there including AI now recently so I think it’s important just to understand there is a base of support there are folks who

Are waiting on the sideline and John taking that first public step could make a lot more folks interested in joining or at least supporting someone who wants to take her out uh so your point I think it’s a really good uh you know at least move

Forward and to show her hey look you’re on your watch if you think your seat is a guaranteed that’s never the case the voters uh are are always watching for sure final question here um are there any upcoming hearings uh around crypto that you know we should pay attention to

Or be on the lookout for um I’m not sure if it’s publicly announced yet but there um Jerome how I mean he usually comes in around this time anyway but uh we do expect Jerome Powell to be front of the house and the Senate likely in March uh

Probably more early March time frame um so we could see conversations especially on stable coins where the FED is such an important piece of this negotiation um and I again there’s been reports that there’s an agreement I have heard from closed sources on Mo mulle cams it’s not

A full deal yet uh and the FED obviously is one of those folks in the room so I would watch that hearing um it looks like at least for the house we’re probably largely done with the digital asset hearing when it comes to crypto I think we’re going to see a little more

Pivot to AI especially with a lot of the news recently with open Ai and their new upgrades and a lot of folks in Capital Hill really uh we’re talking about that a lot yesterday actually uh when I was over there um so I think we’re gonna see

A little more pivot on AI from the house side um the Senate is probably the last thing I would look at Senate banking they’re focusing on housing right now but there’s been a lot of conversations about what is uh you know money laundering legislation look like and treasury gave some proposals out there

They’re pretty uh you know far-reaching in terms of what they want to expand their authority to so uh I do think we’ll have more action in the Senate uh in terms of hearings but I would also look to the house for votes on Stables Market structure and staff account

Bullington 121 probably around the summer time uh Springtime uh and then with the additional caveat it’s election year and the House Republicans are a mess a lot of things can get screwed up so I don’t want to take my word for truth here um but that’s kind of what we’re seeing at

Least right now as uh you know the ground swells and at least we’re in a little bit of a holding pattern till they fund the government to March 2nd oh man Ron I I’m going to try to remain as optimistic as possible send positive energy to DC uh that they they can get

Their act together and do some of these things in you know not just crypto but take care of the other stuff too right we got a function we got a function we got support allies we got B we got keep our commi going there’s a lot of things

That so you know when you have these really big issues it’s really hard to say but wait crypto and that’s kind of like you know we have to do that balancing act too McKenry is doing the same thing you just can’t say hey look The Border’s a mess or you know we’re

Having issues with our allies who are fighting these wars and then someone says but before we touch any of that let’s touch crypto like that just does doesn’t work out like that uh politically and those who do that usually are scoffed immediately in the press and not internally so um K’s

Playing his cards right it’s just really a very unfortunate situation the split Congress and so many pressing issues and an election year it’s it’s a really bad combo Ron always great insights and information thank you so much my friend anytime thanks for having Me