Advanced Energy Solutions: scaling up the tech that can help us get to net zero
unless the clean products become price
competitive it’s very difficult to
create markets in wind and solar it took
almost four decades for that to happen
we know that we don’t have this time
welcome to radio Davos the podcast from
the world economic Forum that looks at
the biggest challenges and how we might
solve them this week energy many of the
Innovations we need to get us to Net
Zero are out there how can we get them
scaled up fast enough there’s a whole
slew of promising clean Technologies out
there that we now need to drisk and help
stand up only a clean technology that is
actually used can help us decarbonized
we hear from members of the world
economic forums Advanced Energy
Solutions Community which brings
together innovators investors and
Regulators to try to chart A Way Forward
all around the world if you ask the
question will India lead the energy
transition momentum around the world yes
it will but the solutions that we going
to develop would be more applicable for
economies like India we need to look at
these Global Technologies but bring them
to the country in a manner that
addresses the specific needs of the
Indian Society from a big producer of
batteries in India to a Belgian startup
putting solar panels on people’s homes
for free what we build is a virtual or
decentralized or digital grid so to
speak and we match production
consumption subscribe to radio davil
wherever you get your podcast or visit
W.P podcast while you also find our
sister programs meet the leader and
agenda dialogues I’m Robin Pomroy at the
world economic forum and with the look
at Advanced Energy Solutions tangible
actions that are today and tomorrow and
next year a lot to be done but we need
tangible tangible action this is Radio
Davos welcome to radio Davos where this
week we’re talking about Advanced Energy
Solutions and I’m joined in the studio
by Jeremy Jurgens who’s a managing
director of the world economic Forum
Jeremy how are you good great to be here
with you today Robin lovely to speak to
you Jeremy now energy and new technology
are two very important areas for the
world economic forum and they come
together in this thing called the
Advanced Energy Solutions Community
could you tell us what that is yeah
that’s right I mean if you step back you
can see that actually um energy has
underpowered industry uh since the
Second Industrial Revolution if not
earlier and continues to be absolutely
critical to every industry today and now
today we also have everything around Ai
and Technology more broadly which is
also going to be Central to every uh
industry in every sector the Advanced
Energy uh Community actually brings
these two domains together and say what
are the new Energy Solutions that will
actually help us drive a
sustainable uh affordable and secure
Energy Future and you bring this
community together actually in person
that’s right because I conducted three
interviews which we’re going to hear in
this episode very different what’s quite
impressive about this group is it’s
every imaginable kind of angle on energy
I me can you give us some idea of the
diversity of the people who would attend
a meeting L it yeah so um you know we
have a range of individuals here because
you know you may have startups that are
you know driving new Energy Solutions in
a specific domain could be in solar in
Fusion in connecting grids uh then you
have uh policy makers who are actually
important to actually understand how
these new technologies are evolving and
what do we need to do to make sure that
the regulatory environment adapts as
well you have phers that’re actually
helping fund the RO out where we’re
clearly underfunded where we are today
and we’ll need to put in much much more
Capital to help Drive these Solutions
forward of course there’s the expertise
and knowledge that comes from the large
established uh energy companies and then
as well you have a broad set of uh
consumers that are actually using um
these uh energy and these new Solutions
and they’re really important to bring
together the right demand signals so we
try to bring all these groups together
where they might not necessarily
normally meet around this specific topic
and actually understand how we can
actually accelerate investment in
Advanced Energy Solutions we’re going to
hear a couple of interviews from people
in one or two of those niches but the
first interv we’re going to listen to is
an metler of breakthrough energy could
you tell me something about an metler
yeah I mean Ann’s Ann’s great she’s at
breakthrough energy Ventures where
they’re actually helping catalyze uh new
technological solutions uh with capital
and by looking at public private
Partnerships there and so a lot of the
times we actually need to seed uh these
uh new Solutions and they’re looking at
a broad-based sector of new technologies
to help drive that let here an metler
breakr energy was founded in 2015 by
Bill Gates in an effort to help stand up
a new generation of clean Technologies
and we’re very much Guided by science
and Innovation and we work Across The
Innovation cycle so from Discovery to
development to deployment so you’re
going out looking for new Innovations
absolutely we believe that there’s a
current set of mature clean Technologies
and we absolutely need these but we also
believe that we need new clean
technologies that now need to be scaled
and we need to lower the cost this is
what Bill Gates likes to call the green
premium what is what does he mean by the
green premium the green premium is
essentially the difference in price
between a clean product and one that has
to compete with a product that is
probably cheaper because it is CO2
intensive a polluting product and we are
working to bring down the cost
differential Because unless the clean
products become competitive price
competitive um it’s very difficult to
create markets so if you look for
instance in wind and solar where we have
broadly speaking reached price
competitiveness it took almost four
decades for that to happen we know that
we don’t have this time so this is why
this is so urgent the reduction of the
green premium and how do you achieve
that is that a matter of scaling up
because I think for wind and solar
people were surprised when what seemed
like suddenly this was cheaper in many
cases than kind of fossil fuel uh energy
what what what needs to happen to to
allow things to scale up and to become
cheaper completely I mean it’s a process
it starts at the early stages with R&D
and then we essentially need to figure
out how to quickly scale as I said
before and bring down the cost but it’s
a little bit of chicken and an egg
problem because unless it scales the
cost doesn’t come down and so generating
demand for a product that is not price
competitive is challenging but it can be
done and it has been done so if you look
for instance in solar in the early days
of solar Germany had a feed in tariff
which guaranteed a certain price and
that actually helped stand up this
technology so this can be done across a
whole slew of new clean Technologies and
these are the kinds of models that need
to be studied German example that you
give shows the importance I suppose of
public sector and private sector what
was happening there was those government
policies were encouraging private sector
companies to produce solar energy and
consumers to use solar energy where do
you see that kind of public private
partnership when it comes to the kind of
energy transition well it’s critical
because neither the public sector nor
the private sector can achieve this on
their own right so they need to work in
tandem in a way that I think they
haven’t done today so and the owners is
really very much on the public sector if
I can say so because we work with the
private sector and startups and
particular so we know that there is a
whole slew of promising clean
Technologies out there that we now need
to drisk and help stand up and what I
can tell you is in energy you don’t move
an inch without public policy everything
is regulated so the owners as I said is
on the public sector to try to figure
out how can we enable the private sector
how can we unleash these Innovations and
these Technologies and I know a lot of
thinking is going on in that respect and
I welcome that but I do urge a clear
focus on speed a lot of this takes too
long and really understanding that
unless the technology scales you’re not
going to bring down that cost that means
you know you’re not going to achieve
your goals because only a clean
technology that is actually used can
help us
decarbonized so that’s interesting what
you’re saying you could have the best
idea in the world you could be an
entrepreneur with a fantastic product
but no one’s going to invest in that if
the policy landscap Cape isn’t right for
it exactly and this is the perennial
chicken and egg problem right because
for the most part our economy still
operate sort of in a regulatory and
policy environment that was built for
the Industrial Age but we’re trying to
have a new Industrial Revolution built
on clean Technologies so a lot of
changes need to be brought underway and
very quickly you’re vice president
Europe correct for breakthrough energy
so maybe you talk to the policy
situation here because we’ve seen in
America massive policy changes with the
inflation the weirdly named inflation
reduction act which is actually not
about inflation but seems to be all
about the energy transition how do you
compare America to Europe and do you
think things need to go faster in Europe
now yeah so I mean first of all to say I
mean the original leadership for climate
came out of Europe right and also with
the European green deal
uh we have a legally binding framework
now that essentially is supposed to
bring us to Net Zero however what I
would say is and this is becoming clear
in the European context we cannot
regulate ourselves to Net Zero and I
think this is why the inflation
reduction Act was actually a welcome
wakeup call in Europe because we
understood that both mature and emerging
clean Technologies are at the heart of
the energy transition so in that sense I
actually believe that the inflation
reduction Act is cleverly worded because
a it drives public acceptance because no
one wants inflation but secondly I would
also argue it’s correctly worded because
if you look at the inflation that we
suffered in 2022 a lot of that was
driven by the high price of energy
fossil energy and we need to be very
clear that if we want to get a grip on
this yes we need to invest now in these
emerging clean Technologies but the
payoff over time will be lower inflation
because a lot of these Technologies
actually can help bring down the cost
because for wind and solar they as I
said they are price competitive already
yeah we saw that really in Europe didn’t
we with the invasion of Ukraine very
much coincide it wasn’t the only reason
for that massive jump in inflation but
it was a big one wasn’t it so huge I
mean there was a study out this morning
that says that in Germany at least 50%
of the inflation in 2022 was driven by
the price of energy and this poses
significant policy challenges because
that means that central banks which have
a mandate to keep inflation low have
limited means because they’re not in
charge of the price of energy so it
really poses a a conundrum that I think
we haven’t seen today so can you tell us
anything about the trends that you’re
seeing or that we should be looking out
for wind solar energy we’ve seen that
come up over the past decades are there
particular Technologies or just Trends
in the energy transition that people
should be looking at of course I mean
and in general I would always encourage
a portfolio approach so that isn’t one
clean technology that is sort of the
Silver Bullet however we know that
especially in Europe since we’re really
doubling down on solar and wind we will
need that to go hand in hand with
storage because wind and solar are
intermittent energy sources so what do
we do if there’s no sun and there’s no
wind so by definition we need long
duration energy storage so that would be
one area that I would favor Europe has
also made a really big bet on hydrogen
in particular on green hydrogen a lot of
reputation I would say is at stake here
for Europe to really show and
demonstrate it can be the leader that it
has said it wants to be I think there’s
a huge scope also around sustainable
fuels in aviation and shipping we know
we need new types of fuels also a big
one for Europe is how to decarbonize the
industry sector where we know it’s
particularly difficult if you look at
steel you look at cement you look at
chemicals those are sectors that are
extremely difficult to decarbonize but
where for instance industrial heat clean
industrial heat can be a real solution
so we really need to zero in on the
Technology Solutions and then need to
invest in these and help the scale them
but it’s absolutely doable the
Technologies we need are out there it’s
now really a matter of bringing about
the catalytic systemic change that is
needed I’ve just got back from an AI
Summit the world economic Forum event
about artificial intelligence and it’s
really is obviously flavor of the month
it must be something obviously that Bill
Gates is very interested in but are you
seeing that already in the energy sector
the the because AI the proponents of it
say it could solve some of the big
issues like climate change it’s not yet
clear to me how it might do that is AI
and that kind of Technology absolutely I
I am a firm believer in that that there
is a strong intersection between digital
Technologies and clean Technologies and
I tell you why if we’re looking to
reduce the carbon footprint how do you
do that unless you actually have metrics
so if we were to digitize the power grid
we would have much better metrics over
when is the power used who is using it
and if everyone had access to this dat
including at household level and you
could aggregate that data right in a big
data pool you could gain very important
insights so I absolutely see the
application of AI in the fight against
climate change and I actually ought to
think that we double down on this
because where does the intelligence
right a artificial intelligence where
does the intelligence come from it comes
from data are we collecting that data
are we synthesizing that data are we
trying to understand that data I would
argue no and what I can tell you uh
having worked in public policy for a
long time unless you can measure it you
can’t manage it so oftentimes we are
actually operating in the dark and here
we really need to bring those two
communities the AI community and the
clean Tech Community much closer
together you’re here in the world
economic Forum in Geneva attending this
Advanced Energy Solutions meeting which
is lots of compan
who are innovating in energy I mean
what’s been your impression of the event
firstly it’s like a dream come true
because um if you look at people who
operate at the clean technology Frontier
we don’t always have a chance to meet
one another especially when it’s across
geographies right because we had
fabulous colleagues from India from
Saudi Arabia from Turkey so extremely
interesting and very necessary because
these are the people that in many ways
CH the future and I think what we
collectively learned is that even though
we sort of have a broad understanding of
these clean Technologies emerging clean
Technologies it would be a fallacy to
assume that everyone else does and the
policy maker in particular one of the
points I made based on my experience in
public policy is unless the policy maker
knows where the technology Frontier lies
he or she cannot regulate for the clean
technology Frontier or set the standards
or invest in that because they don’t
even know it exists so there is a big
onus on that group I think to almost
have a pedagogical approach to what
they’re doing because they’re charting
new ground and it’s really of critical
importance that we bring others along so
I applaud the world economic forum for a
bringing us together and be a little bit
of a challenges for all of us how do we
mainstream that and really bring it into
Society where we can bring about the
systemic change and the speed and the
scale that we know is needed and metler
of breakthrough energy Jeremy I think
important to her is uh public private
Partnerships which is very much what the
world economic forum is all about how do
you see that relationship between the
private sector the public sector coming
together on energy
Innovation yeah it’s really critical
that we bring these two sectors together
uh neither party can do it on their own
uh public sector doesn’t have
necessarily the expertise the knowledge
the
capabilities and on the private sector
side they actually need clear signals
and uh you know clear road map of where
we’re going in these domains let’s hear
the second of our three interviews then
this is VK
samudrala of Amara Raja energy Mobility
tell me something about him yeah he’s
leading India’s largest Automotive
battery and you know supporting uh
capabilities a company in India and
we’ve seen you know everywhere the
electrification of the transportation
sector will be critical in achieving uh
both 2030 and 2050 or 2060 objectives
around carbon neutrality let’s hear from
VK samudrala we are about 30 plus years
company in India and we started our
business in India just about the time
when economic liberalization happened in
199 1 our idea was to bring the latest
Battery Technology to the Indian market
and bridge the gap between what was
available at that time in India versus
what’s the latest technology elsewhere
in the world the timing seemed to have
been perfect because the liberalization
policies opened up the market we could
see the wireless telepon business
growing up rapidly and our battery
product was a perfect fit for that
because the Telecom Towers needed a
battery solution that doesn’t need
manual attendance and maintenance on a
frequent basis over the last 35 years
we’ve actually grown our business in The
Battery area offered lot of solutions
both for industrial customers as well as
for automotive customers whatever we did
was the probably the first time in India
in terms of offering the latest
technology but in the last 5 years we
have seen that there’s a lot of
competing Advanced chemistries that are
coming into the energy storage
applications so we said let’s diversify
our product portfolio and also relook at
our business models and relook at next
10 years in terms of not as a product
company but more as a Solutions company
we are a listed company in the stock
exchange in India valued with about 1.3
billion dollar on market cap with more
than a billion dollar as a revenue so
we’re the number two largest battery
manufacturer India at this stage
batteries seem to be increasingly
important part of people’s lives you
mentioned mobile phones people didn’t
have that a generation ago laptop
computers all these gadgets need power
and then also the industrial level
electrification is all part of the
energy transition what do you see as
kind of the new products or the new uses
for batteries where do you think things
are going in the next three to five
years I would traditionally describe the
battery applications on three fronts one
like you said you have mobile devices if
not mobile phone that needed power for
example power tools have been there
garden equipment uh has in there they
needed batteries you also needed
batteries for DC power for certain
communication related equipments because
that equipment works with the DC power
so batteries were required there and
then battery has a emergency power
backup these are the three classical
applications that batteries have always
been used and lead acid battery which is
about 155 year old technology has been
the backbone or a Workhorse for this
battery know applications but in the
last 10 years we have seen that there is
strong new application segments that are
evolving Mobility e-mobility has been
one of it and then the renewable energy
space where we are getting into clean
energy uh generation we needed batteries
there to take care of intermittency of
the power generation either in solar or
wind or providing stability to the grade
and providing Peak load shaving
applications so these applications are
significantly new and the demand is
significantly order of magnitude higher
in in terms of capacity requirements if
I take an automotive vehicle there’s
been a lead acid battery sitting there
providing the starting lighting and
ignition Services uh but that’s a
smaller battery now you take a EV you
have a battery that’s much bigger in
size and almost 40 to 50% of value in
terms of cost so we are pretty excited
and it also required Technologies on The
Battery area that are a lot more agile
and flexible I’ll just give you three
possible functional requirement that are
very different from what batteries have
been doing all along you want batteries
to be lightest because on Mobility
application you want the battery to be
know not weing too much but give you
enough power you’d like to see that if
you put a battery on a vehicle the
battery has its life as long as the
vehicle is you know existing and you
want the battery to be charged faster so
you want fast charging long lasting and
light weight uh you know functionality
which lead acid cannot offer uh in in in
a significant manner so you see new
chemistries coming up lithium family is
one of the most popular right now but
I’m able to see that there lot more uh
know new technologies and chemistries
that are evolving in the space you
you’re based in India how do you see
kind of the wide of the energy
transition happening in India do you
think India is well placed to kind of to
be some kind of a leader in the energy
transition the Indian Society needs
Energy Solution which could be pretty
unique first I would like to acknowledge
that India has one grid for the whole
country so we have you know a unified
grid that’s delivering the electricity
as a part of the energy needs largely
Coal Fired thermal power plants are the
ones that produce electricity
requirements for the country and we all
have oilbased energy sources for
mobility and Industrial applications now
10 years ago the government had a Clear
Vision to enhance the clean energy
component in the overall energy basket
and if I look at the progress that we
have made as a country I think we have
done pretty well for ourselves today
approximately 27% of generation capacity
of electrical installations are based on
either solar or hybrid as we see by 2030
there is a clear policy by the
government to get to about 500 gaw of
renewable energy the energy capacity
will grow to about 870 gaw so you’re
having more than 55% % of the overall
energy basket from a generation capacity
perspective coming from renewable
sources but we also know that renewable
sources have intermittency low plf
Factor the plant load Factor thermal
power plant probably has about 65% so if
you have a you know 100 units generating
capacity it actually generates 65 units
but a similar 100 units generation
capacity if a solar can only generate
about 20 units so we need to increase
the p left factor for solar and wind and
we got to also look at how do we enhance
the storage capacity because of
intermittency so if you ask the question
that you know will India lead the energy
transition momentum around the world yes
it will but the solutions that you’re
going to develop would be more
applicable for you know economies like
India where the lot of Developmental
needs the economy is in a developmental
mode and then the scale is evolving in
certain applications so we need to look
at these Global Technologies but bring
them to the country in a manner that
addresses the specific needs of the
Indian society as an example if you look
at Mobility as a challenge India
consumes a lot of oil for its
Transportation requirement and we don’t
have enough oil resources so we import a
lot so transitioning to Electric
Mobility would solve some other problem
by developing domestic capability and
creating the electric vehicle component
ecosystem now what India needs is not
you know a large uh long range mile
vehicle because Indian commute
requirements are very different so we
see a big evolution happening in the
Light Electric Mobility Solutions the
two wheelers and three-wheelers provide
for 70% of the mobility needs of the
country and when you have such kind of
you know very different end use
application it’s important for us to
develop solutions that are aimed and you
know customized for those requirements
so as an industry participant I see that
the responsibility for you know
companies like K Raja is to innovate in
that area derive the strength of global
technology development but apply it to
the Indian context by innovating on the
solutions that you offer to the market
you say it’s a a very different
Marketplace but probably some of those
Innovations to three-wheel vehicles that
would be a market for those around the
world as well do do you see that
absolutely I’m very clearly seeing a
trend that with electric power trains
the uh local Mobility requirements will
be more and more met By the Light
electric vehicles like two wheelers and
three-wheelers whether it is people or
Logistics needs and except for the
climatic challenge that we have that
these vehicles may not be very
convenient use around the year but a
majority part of the year you can still
use these electric platforms or for
Light Electric Mobility for local commun
M of let’s say you know 15 20 M range
that basically means that you don’t need
a big battery that you would need
probably in a large know passenger
vehicle and hence you can actually put
more electric vehicles on the road with
smaller battery capacities because we
know that there are supply chain
challenges of being able to meet the
battery demand you know one smart way of
solving the problem is make smaller
packs and then build more electric
vehicles you’re here at the Advanced
Energy Solutions meeting at the world
economic Forum what what’s been your
impression of it lots of people from
different parts of the world in
different parts of the industry or
different Industries even I think there
are three things that came out very
clearly energy transition is a must it’s
not a choice but are we able to navigate
through this energy transition in a
manner that we are making the future of
energy more affordable and cost
competitive is there a premium to be
paid for this energy transition and if
there is a premium to be paid who is
going to pay the premium if you expect
the consumer to pay the premium how are
you going to motivate and educate the
consumer that in the transition to clean
Mobility or clean energy you got to pay
more for it at this point of time it
costs more but the conversation then you
know moved on to can we innovate a lot
more to ensure that the cost of clean
energy is not burdensome on the society
because if you need partnership with the
consumers and their buying into this
whole initiatives either from the
government or from the industry you got
to make them understand that there is
value for them DK Sr of Amara Raja
energy and Mobility let’s go to our
third and final interview from the
Advanced Energy Solutions event we’re
going now from India to Flanders I
believe Martin melon’s of energy Vision
what do you know about energy Vision
energy vision is a solar uh P
manufacturer in Belgium providing
homebased Solar Solutions and important
element in uh the energy equation we’re
a Belgian company also active in China
and nor of Morocco we want to include
maximum number of people families smes
into the energy transition so we
basically we install for instance solar
panels for free and then sell the energy
to them so no need to invest for our
customers was this a demand you felt was
out there that people
were hesitating about putting in solar
panels when we started our company in
2014 you just had a few years of huge
subsidies that then stopped and all of a
sudden the market collapsed confidence
was lost and basically we said well the
technology is mature so we don’t need
the subsidies but still in order to get
over these barriers technical Financial
barriers let’s give the advantage of the
technology without the burden of the
cost and so you have the added value but
that comes with an added cost and we
want to get rid of the cost to give the
value to the people so how how would it
work then if I’m living in a place where
you run this service let’s say in
Belgium what what what I do what what
would you offer me if you would be a
family or a household we would for
instance put solar panels on your roof
you wouldn’t pay anything um to us for
the installation we don’t get paid by
subsidies at the end of the day we get
paid by the energy you consume so we
sell the energy at a much lower rate
than the normal energy price 50 or 80%
discount but in general you would only
use 30 or 40% of the energy we produce
60% goes into the grid and is lost and
that energy we direct it towards our
electric charges and then sell it for
people that charge their car and so we
have local green cheap energy for people
who charge their car and that’s how we
make a profit so by the energy you
consume and you pay to us we recover our
investment the energy we sell to the car
drivers that’s how we make profit
basically with electricity I’m I’m I’m
often confused because you have grids
people feed in and you’re never quite
sure where that electricity has been
generated so is yours you say it’s a
local charging stations are you actually
kind of wired up then to these houses or
is it actually you’re putting into a
grid and pulling it back off the grid we
use the grid we use the grid indeed so
so well of course if we sell energy to
your house we don’t use the Grid it’s
local but then everything else we inject
into the grid and get it out and we
match it because in general I mean
electricity or energy sector that’s
production and consumption and both are
two pillows but both are misery
basically basically in production if we
Tred to sell solar panels to you you
would go to competitor you would ask a
lower price you would negotiate with us
to have a lower price we would have to
reduce our quality so it’s really misery
and at the end of the day an installer
builds and gets three or 4% profit and
has 10 years of risks and liabilities
misery in consumption it’s something
similar if you’re a electricity supplier
you would buy electricity from the
market and sell it at a 2% margin to the
customer and then Russia enters Ukraine
and pre is triple but even then those
energy suppliers don’t make any profit a
lot of value gets lost in between this
production and consumption and that’s
what we try to match so in production we
have a very simple model you don’t pay
for solar panels you pay for the
electricity in consumption we direct the
excess energy here towards our customers
or our charges and that allows us to
have very predictable revenue streams we
know the investment costs of our
installation we know the output we know
the the lifetime so we know the cost of
electricity cheap and we sell it here at
fixed price as well and the result is
that those people drivers or people who
can’t have solar pans on their roof they
have predictable energy costs and even
during the crisis we did not increase
our energy price we kept it stable and
we made a profit and those energy
suppliers that tripled their price well
they still acted at the loss basically
what we build is a virtual or
decentralized or digital grid so to
speak and we match production consum
ition while using the normal grid that’s
basically what we do and this model is
it unique to you is it happening around
the world I hope in five years from here
it happens everywhere today it’s quite
unique but it’s really something I mean
we ask companies to copy us you know we
have a great business case in in flers
in Belgium with social houses you know
typically social houses so you have
families who cannot afford a house they
get a house house from government and
they pay a lower price typically those
people have subsidized Energy bill as
well so they pay a social tariff so to
speak so it costs enormously to
government because a social tariff means
you have your energy price social tariff
versus the market price the difference
is made by government during the energy
crisis we’re talking about billions of
Euros of subsidies and those people
cannot buy solar panels first of all
very often they don’t have the means but
certainly they don’t own the house so
they cannot put solar panel on it so
then we step in what we did is uh it’s a
it’s a project called aser it’s a very
long name but that’s the abbreviation
aser is basically saying so we install
solar panels on Social House the family
doesn’t pay anything for the energy you
consume will will charge you a price
lower than social tariff so the family
really has an incentive to use that
energy because it’s cheaper than the
social tariff there’s zero subsidy and
at the end of the day the government
saves a lot because they don’t have to
intervene anymore on the social tariff
and we recover our investment ASA
recovers their investment
social fam or social housing area is
very happy because they pay lower prices
and government is happy because they
don’t have to pay the energy bill
anymore it’s a model that really works
oh we started it 12 months ago today
more than 8,000 families already joined
we have an agreement for 50,000 families
but I mean if you can do 50,000 you can
do 500,000 or 5 million so please copy
that model it’s very simple what’s the
big barrier that you’ve experienced to
it I imagine another discussion I’ve had
here in this meeting is getting the
alignment with policy makers the policy
scenario has to be right if you’ve got a
great idea which sounds like your idea
sounds great to me I’ll have a free
solar panel and cheap electricity but if
the regulatory regime isn’t right it
won’t work is that something you’ve
struggled with or definitely in all
senses I mean policy and Innovation
don’t go quite well hand and glove so to
speak for instance we give threee solar
panels okay but the government says
either a family buys a solar
installation and we get vat or they pay
for their energy bill and we get V if
you give free solar pens and cheaper
energy we lose on V so we have to charge
you so basically we get charged on the
free solar panels we provide then we
have these smart meters but they don’t
really read out I mean in Belgium we we
have a huge roll out of digital Smart
Energy meters but in reality it doesn’t
work as well so so we say oh so we will
sell s the energy and everything else we
will put towards the charges but it’s
really a pain in the ass to make it work
uh let alone to replicate it and and for
instance in the woon region in Belgium
the regulation is simply not ready to to
implement so we have thousands of
families on our waiting list we have to
wait for new government and new
regulation so that’s definitely
something Troublesome Beyond Belgium
Beyond fland is then you mentioned
Morocco and did you mention China what
are you doing in those places oh we are
very active in both countries in China
we basically sell Chinese solar panels
to Chinese customers and they buy from
us because we Finance them and we come
with European interest rates that’s how
we started we started as a very small
company four people 6,200 EUR equity and
we had a financial model but no money so
we developed a system where Chinese
customers buy Chinese solar panels from
us but they are backed by Belgian funds
and state guarantees and and and cheaper
interest rates and profit we reinvested
it in Belgium in our home Market that’s
basically how we started to put it
simple Chinese government said you
cannot exceed a certain number of
kilowatt hours because of pollution so
you have to reduce your energy spending
otherwise we triple your energy price
and then Chinese companies just
calculated and said okay even if you
triple the energy price we still make a
profit so we just continue and then they
said second stage they said well if you
still pollute that much go to jail
yourself that was something different so
they had to find Solutions uh very often
they didn’t have the funds or the
resources so then we came up with that
model and we say European interest rates
which makes it much cheaper than your
local bank loans which were at 12 or
133% and we were at 1 or 2% so this way
we we did hundreds of megawatts in China
and then reinvested the profits in our
home country same for Morocco Morocco
has huge lands as a king that really
wants to go in one generation from
import to energy export they have Sun
they have wind they have everything and
it was a new market basically today we
have tens of thousands of customers that
work along that model in both countries
and in Morocco as well really increasing
a lot I imagine you say you’re selling
Chinese solar panels to Chinese
consumers I imagine you’re selling
Chinese solar panels to Belgian
consumers as well do you see changes in
kind of global trade in the supply chain
there’s political reasons maybe economic
reasons that things are changing where
do you see things going for in terms of
the supply of that technology of the
hardware well we have in in our board of
directors as a former European
Commissioner of trade who imposed
sanctions on Chinese solar panels but
the reality is that European solar panel
manufacturers don’t exist anymore most
of the solar panels come from China and
we are very strict on our supplier
selection very strict but the reality is
it comes from China and and you know you
have the rubbish quality coming from
China CH but you also have the very best
quality coming from China so it’s
reality of things yes we are highly
dependent on Chinese manufacturers
that’s true on the other hand we are not
a company that that tries to sell
installations and then have to find
customers every year I mean we have
recurrent income so if there would be
disruption in the supply chain at least
or income streams continue which just
wouldn’t add new projects for a while
it’s a risk we are very aware of until
now it’s very fine for us we have huge
stock piles everywhere but yeah the
Innovation comes from China the the risk
is Chinese but on the other hand I mean
China showed us the way without China
solar would never have rolled out as it
did I mean it went 10 times faster five
times cheaper that’s also China so we’re
at this meeting as we’re recording today
the Advanced Energy Solutions meeting
here at the world economic Forum in
Geneva what impression do you have of
the meeting of this meeting of people
from different parts of the energy
industry different parts of the world
coming together everybody understands
that the challenge is huge that there’s
no way back that the way forward is very
very very challenging that it doesn’t
help much when the interest rates are
increasing that high especially in
renewable because that’s always about
project financing and so the interest
rates went times four in the last 12
months that has real it’s not a deal
breaker but it’s a real impact everybody
understands the banks were also present
everybody understands on the other hand
what we often lack is is public
acceptance or at least to include people
I mean to be frank I mean it doesn’t
make much sense to talk about goals in
2040 or 2050 or to discuss about
disasters at the other end of the world
when for normal people I mean basically
they struggle to get to the end of the
month or they don’t look beyond their
street or beyond their neighborhood I I
also mentioned it yesterday we we do as
an industry a very good job at telling
our story very badly we talk about these
goals 20 years from here I mean let us
try to talk about specific tangible
actions that don’t go beyond people’s
life here on Earth basically I mean that
are today and tomorrow and next year a
lot to be done but we need tangible
tangible action Martin michelson’s of
energy Vision now he makes the point
that um the regulatory environment is
very important all of us would love to
generate our own solar
power sometimes cost is an issue but
very often the regulatory environment is
an issue for individuals and for
companies making Investments that must
be very important to the kind of
conversations you have when the world
economic forum is dealing yeah that’s
right we need to continuously adapt uh
the regulatory solutions to the current
environment uh if you look for example
at how quickly solar costs have fallen
over just the last decade it’s a
completely different environment and it
means that we can use solar and other
Energy Solutions in different settings
and different contexts where they
haven’t been previously used and so we
need to continuously update uh our
understanding of what is possible and
how to most effectively approach these
issues for policy makers to help shape a
a healthy regulatory environment is
there anything in all the conversations
you have with this diverse worldwide
group of people anything that really
excites you about energy Innovation is
one or two things where you
see real breakthroughs happening that
maybe most people weren’t expecting and
also us you know and or AI everyone’s
still talking about artificial
intelligence it’s a huge challenge
because of the energy required to
deliver AI but are do you see that as
one of these big breakthroughs as well
yeah let’s start with the first question
um I’m extremely excited about
electrification um you know 5 years ago
people didn’t think we’d be as far along
as we are today and as we scale up uh
Solutions particularly in the Solar
domain as well as in storage we actually
see new opportunities being unlocked
right so it’s actually feasible today to
have not only electric cars but
electrified heavy transport for shipping
mid-range and longrange Trucking and
these costs can be anticipated to fall
uh much more rapidly as we bring bring
manufacturing solutions to batteries and
storage that were reserved previously
for making uh phones and digital
projects uh products for those who are
well understood now if I look at the
area around AI uh this is going to be
one of the biggest drivers of both
energy demand but as well as Energy
Solutions um you know days data centers
to run the latest AI chips they’re only
about 20% full because these new Chips
consume so much energy that you don’t
even fill out the entire data center so
you literally have 80% of the space
being unused uh because the chips for AI
consume so much energy and if we look at
the you know kind of anticipated demand
in the space that’ll continue to drive
demand for energy uh what’ll be
important here as we roll out these AI
data centers that we also bring online
quickly uh additional power here and
that that power is green and sustainable
uh we can anticipate that this is
actually going to drive demand for
Resurgence and nuclear power and we also
see uh recent advancements and
developments and fusion which has always
appeared to be you know decades away but
for once uh you know it may actually be
much closer than that but you’ll have to
come back and check with me in another
decade and see how that pans out Jeremy
Jurgens managing director of the world
economic Forum thanks so much for
joining us on radio Dallas thank you
Robert after recording that Jeremy was
heading to the forum’s special meeting
on global cooperation growth and energy
for development held in Riad on the 28th
and 29th of April 2024 around 1,000
leaders from business government and
Academia are attending to address the
challenges posed by an increasingly
fragmented geopolitical and economic
environment find more information and
follow it at w. chspe me24 and across
social media using the hash special
meeting 24 please subscribe to radio
Davos wherever you get your podcast and
please if you have a moment leave us a
rating or review and join the
conversation about podcast on the world
economic Forum podcast Club on Facebook
this episode of radio Davos was written
and presented by me Robin Pomroy with
editing by Jerry Johansson and Studio
production by Tas ker we’ll be back next
week with a special episode for the
special meeting on global cooperation
growth and energy for development but
for now thanks to you for listening and
goodbye
What are the new technologies that can help us reach net zero? And how do we bring them to scale fast enough?
World Economic Forum Managing Director Jeremy Jurgens joins us to talk about the Advanced Energy Solutions community, and we hear from three of its members, from widely different sectors and geographies, implementing the energy solutions of tomorrow.
Guests:
Ann Mettler, Vice President, Europe, Breakthrough Energy
VK Samudrala, President, Amara Raja Energy & Mobility
Maarten Michielssens, Founder and CEO, EnergyVision
Special Meeting
This episode is related to the Forum’s Special Meeting on Global Cooperation, Growth and Energy for Development held in Riyadh on 28-29 April 2024.
https://www.weforum.org/events/special-meeting-on-global-collaboration-growth-and-energy-for-development-2024/
Links:
Advanced Energy Solutions community: https://www.weforum.org/communities/advanced-energy-solutions-community/
Related podcasts:
Geopolitics, the equitable transition, and AI: things to look out for in energy in 2024 (https://www.weforum.org/podcasts/radio-davos/episodes/energy-2024-roberto-bocca-john-defterios/)
It’s cheaper to save the world than destroy it: author Akshat Rathi on Climate Capitalism (https://www.weforum.org/podcasts/radio-davos/episodes/climate-capitalism-akshat-rathi/)
Davos 2024: Transforming Energy Demand (https://www.weforum.org/podcasts/agenda-dialogues/episodes/davos-2024-transforming-energy-demand/)
The energy transition moonshot: innovations that will transform our world (https://www.weforum.org/podcasts/radio-davos/episodes/advanced-energy-solutions/)
Check out all our podcasts on wef.ch/podcasts (http://wef.ch/podcasts) :
YouTube: (https://www.youtube.com/@wef/podcasts) – https://www.youtube.com/@wef/podcasts
Radio Davos (https://www.weforum.org/podcasts/radio-davos) – subscribe (https://pod.link/1504682164) : https://pod.link/1504682164
Meet the Leader (https://www.weforum.org/podcasts/meet-the-leader) – subscribe (https://pod.link/1534915560) : https://pod.link/1534915560
Agenda Dialogues (https://www.weforum.org/podcasts/agenda-dialogues) – subscribe (https://pod.link/1574956552) : https://pod.link/1574956552
Join the World Economic Forum Podcast Club (https://www.facebook.com/groups/wefpodcastclub) : https://www.facebook.com/groups/wefpodcastclub