SECRET to TradingView’s Success: Prop Firm Regulations, SCAM brokers, Advice to Traders
we’re back ladies and gentlemen with
another incredible podcast we’re here
with Pierce Crosby from Trading view
very excited to sit down and uh pick
your brain what’s been new on your side
since we last spoke back at the FX
Summit uh thanks for having me again Roy
uh obviously glad to have you here in
New York um in terms of what’s been new
for trading view um it’s been a busy
year for you guys it’s been a busy year
uh markets are absolutely uh ripping
we’re all-time highs across the board I
would say um for trading view
specifically uh you know we we cover all
assets so it’s been a bit of a ground
swell safe to say um you know uh S&P 500
obviously is our most important metric
if you think about it but um second to
that is the crypto markets and um
clearly crypto is absolutely booming so
um yeah since we chatted last time I
think uh we’re probably about 40% above
uh in terms of traffic uh that we used
to have and uh wow continues to maintain
itself but um you know fingers crossed
who knows next thing you know there’s a
flash crash and people disappear so
everybody who’s watching this knows
trading view so we’re not going to go
into what the platform is but there was
a record amount of retail traders that
entered this the the markets since covid
and that’s that’s created a lot of
shifts in the actual liquidity side of
markets but also in the tech startups
how has that impact the trading View and
how have you guys seen the growth in
retail space past few years yeah I mean
it it it definitely has changed the
blend if you will of Who’s involved in
uh financial markets in General um but
different sectors of the market have uh
um matured if you will mhm whereas
otherwise um some have essentially dried
up one really interesting fact that um
that I was actually learning about the
other day is that um most most of the
OTC business in the equity world has um
essentially dried up versus um previous
uh previous kind of waves or generations
of say mem stock Mania or things like
this um a lot of that flow has actually
shifted into uh cryptocurrencies so uh
these kind of uh new projects that have
no regulator uh no Financial backing no
revenue or anything like that uh all of
a sudden they are you know able to
launch projects into the market and and
you know uh create overnight you know uh
insane amounts of personal wealth um
even though a lot of these projects have
no financial means whatsoever but that
is the nature of crypto it’s kind of
like the the new casino if you will um
and as a result you see this kind of
seismic shift so that’s a huge one we’ve
seen is kind of this move from uh uh low
cap companies in traditional markets
into crypto in general now uh on the
mega cap side of things um things have
not changed whatsoever and in fact um
more and more uh there’s a huge wave
towards passive investing versus active
investing so this has been obviously
funded by a lot of the majors so uh
Black Rock Vanguard uh uh I Shar State
Street and and that continues to this
day and and um and we really see that
actually impacting markets when it comes
to um you know uh repricing stocks uh
during Market close versus next day
because ETF uh managers have to uh
rebalance their books and ultimately
there’s a lot of flow trading around uh
ETFs Now versus say um more traditional
markets so there’s a couple big seismic
shifts happening um but safe to say I
mean across the board numbers are up and
um you know I think Reddit reddit’s IPO
is actually very much a signifying
moment of time which is um mem stocks um
social investing uh and people just
chatting about markets is very very uh
invogue right now and and um as a result
you see somebody like uh like a Reddit
going public and you know being up 70%
in the first day of trading and like
another 60% in the second a trading um
it just goes to show there’s a lot of
appetite for this stuff both on um the
institutional side but but for sure on
the on the retail side as well well
first I think Reddit is lucky because
they have a huge support network they
have an army of people that will pump
the stock as a me I think that’s a very
fortunate position to be built in
totally you mentioned regulation which I
think is the topic of the day um how
have you seen regulation changed and how
does that impact your business or a
trading view yeah um so it’s quite
interesting so obviously we went to FX
Summit last year and the year before uh
and um tried to tried to bring some
voice of reason I think for sure so we
uh we talked a lot about about um how uh
there are firms out there that are
overnight success stories but you really
dig into you know what do they do and
and how are they how they grown so fast
and uh oftentimes there’s a lot of um uh
well cutting Corners if you yeah
question marks and so um we most
recently saw this in uh what’s called
funded trading programs and and a lot of
these um uh challenges if you will where
uh people come to uh Forefront they
basically say you know uh hey we will
you know take a hundred bucks from you
um but then we’ll allow you to enter
these
challenges uh potentially you’ll make uh
a bunch of money potentially you won’t
but the downside is you know 100 bucks
so it’s a good trade for an individual
investor right their downside is pretty
limited um but their upside is
essentially well maybe I could you know
start managing money or or things like
this so this has been really popular um
in the future space um here in the US
and then International
uh FX and cfds have have taken this very
very seriously um as you say the the
Turning Point really has been around um
uh people starting to crack down a
little more as to um you know how these
companies are funded uh ultimately who
owns the accounts and uh there’s a lot
of people kind of growing up in the
middle of the market which is not so
much the retail customer or The
Brokerage but a lot of kind of service
providers in the middle and um as a
result uh nobody’s really kind of dug
into that too aggressively until um I
think it was November of last year which
was like the uh funded next or something
like that there was a couple big firms
that had you know very substantial
Brands uh kind of grew up overnight and
uh and and we saw um some takeown
actions as well as I think uh
enforcements across the board so um that
um that does signal I think to me that
there there will be more um eyes on the
space for sure because these businesses
have grown so fast yes um but at the
same time um well honestly creating
competitions in this in simple terms
there’s nothing absolutely wrong with it
whatsoever um it just comes down to who
are the players that are uh involved in
actually um say making markets behind
the scenes um actually holding the
accounts right nobody really dug into
that initially and then turns out often
times you were wiring money offshore and
then that was uh supposed to be like
actually kind of uh you know a normal
thing to do and in fact oftentimes you’d
fund it in crypto and and so my head
starts to like you know spin a little
bit like okay well I I’m pretty used to
like connecting my you know bank account
and then just having it be uh a wire
transfer into a normal brokerage and so
um so I think thankfully people are
waking up a little bit um which is
generally good for the industry because
uh you know I mean trading view is is a
perfect example of a place that wants uh
more education and and not more
regulation per se but definitely
you know they want everybody to not uh
you know get burned by some kind of
sketchy broker something like that so so
it’s it’s great for the business uh on
our side you know we we obviously are
restricted from working with a lot of
these kind of um prop trading firms and
things like that and so uh obviously
people come to us every day and and want
to work with us um but uh but we have to
obviously draw a pretty a pretty uh
clear line there for sure CU um of
course as you can imagine it’s again
asymmetric downside there’s a lot of uh
Brokers there’s a lot of folks like us
that that really don’t um you know uh
don’t see kind of the the risk paying
off at the end of the day it’s too much
risk um trading view is a big business
um to to deal with these kind of firms
uh sure there may be short-term money
available right um but but it would cost
basically so and I think that’s the
beauty of building something so big like
trading view is that you’re not going to
be picking up pennies in the sand uh you
know you’re not going to be chasing
pennies in the sand and giving up the
real uh opportunity which is building
the large platform and an integrator now
one thing that I love about trading view
is the vetting that you guys do for the
platforms you allow to partner with you
and you spoke about this at the summit
but could you give a quick rundown of if
you were to partner with a prop firm
what would you have to see yeah well so
across the board we we um uh prop fors
in general we we we can’t partner with
them from a uh integration perspective
so it’s a simple uh simple kind of um
unfortunate reality we we do still have
the ability to license them some of our
technology so if they want to build
their own platforms that’s great we have
a ton of tools for them uh to do that to
plug those uh Technologies in what I
think you’re referencing in general is
um we have a very uh strict uh policy
around um uh basically kyc and AML for
brokerages that we now integrate to
tradingview.com Yes um this is something
that that basically when I joined um I
emphasized that we needed to do because
um you know trading view has always been
a front-end technology um and we do a
ton of everything from Market data to
analytics to news to social but when it
comes to actual trading and investing we
realized one this isn’t our expertise
two uh if we were to go that route and
become a broker dealer oursel or
something like that it would come at the
burden of actually building out an
entire compliance team uh at the time
when I joined I mean we were 70 people
right I mean even though we’re 700
people now we still don’t have the time
to set aside another 100 people for comp
clients operations Etc and so um but if
you think about it you know the workflow
of an average investor they uh come to
trading view they learn a little bit
about the markets they find an
interesting thesis or idea that they
really care about they research it they
look at it in the chart they look at the
fundamentals they look at the news and
then it comes to a moment where they’re
ultimately going to want to invest and
in that moment uh we usually have to
pass them to another website right like
have to go to fidelity.com to actually
trade right and so um when I joined I
was basically like guys we need to
actually integrate these Brokers
directly to us such that they don’t go
offsite and then we lose them as
customers genius and so the the whole
workflow was to build like a Walled
Garden but then allow the brokers in
such that we could basically complete
that entire life cycle on the platform
of course that is so that’s so great and
I think that does take like a bit of an
I want to say an Innovative approach to
see where the future is going where part
ship and integration versus trying to
build a proprietary platform and slowing
yourself down to compete in these
individual markets where they have the
edge because they’re spending all day on
it oh man Tot so what is what really is
the end goal for trading view is it to
be an integration platform for the
Brokers is it the social aspect is it
the charting technology what which one
of these do you see as being the main
driver for trading view well I think
it’s interesting because a lot of
Brokers or a lot of like technology
firms um Everybody Wants to do one thing
really really really well um we’ve kind
of adopted an approach now which is um
we do one thing really well but we
multiply that across um a bunch of
different verticals and so in this case
uh we have to be the best at charting
that’s what we do that’s what we’re
known for um but now we believe we have
to be the best at things like Market
data um things like uh realtime
analytics uh alerting systems execution
wow all these vertical in one and to be
honest I think that um few people really
think about it from like a comprehensive
workflow perspective kind of what I
explained like the individual steps that
take place um and so from that workflow
we we believe we need to be the best at
all of those different pieces of the
workflow so consolidating the process of
finding a trade and putting it all in
one platform so you don’t have to keep
bouncing around correct I think that um
and we we do know what we’re good at and
we do know where we where we struggle so
actually quite interesting um we just
killed live streaming so we had live
streaming as a product on trading view
um for almost a year and a half and
enough uptick that it was an interesting
product especially for the really
hardcore users because not only were
people using it to just you know chat
with fellow Traders but actually people
building businesses on top of it where
um you would you know host a live stream
or a private event or private kind of a
webinar type video um we we had a ton of
usage uh from a very very hardcore
segment of customers the problem being
is um we were really hoping to see
somewhat of a ground swell and uh when
you’re dealing with 70 million uh
customers per month um you really have
to see millions of customers use the
product before it’s actually considered
successful right and so it’s this huge
barrier to entry uh and we have to be
very very judicious about you know can
we improve the product can we change it
Etc um with live streams we felt like we
were getting there but at the rate of
growth it was lagging the rest of
trading view I mean usage across all our
products usually is up and to the right
and if it’s not really that hockey stick
type growth um it’s not worth pursuing
it’s not worth pursuing it’s also a
matter of costs uh allocated elsewhere
like we have a small team and and
honestly there’s a huge uh emphasis on
resource right now um we’ve uh been
actually cutting back a lot of like pet
projects because you know they unless
they have a very distinct and defined
uh timeline and outcome uh they can be
very nebulous as to what do they cost us
and ultimately what what costs us money
is time and so we have to be very very
very sharp on like okay is this a
defined outcome or is this a potentially
big business and so we have to kind of
uh really map that out before we go into
any serious projects these days so I’m
glad I’m glad you touched on that
because a lot of users are always
demanding new features and they don’t
realize there’s an opportunity cost to
every project that a company has to take
on so if you want let’s say an iPhone
like if you want multi- chat uh Zoom
call or FaceTime calls you’re gonna have
to give up let’s say the integration
between your Apple watch or something
because that you can’t integrate
everything at once so what would be so I
guess the charting platform is what is
the what everyone really knows you for I
had no idea that you guys had a live
streaming platform could I give you my
take as a live streamer sure sure so we
uh we were working with binance on a
similar project where they they had a
live streaming platform and I realized
that yeah and but the benefit of being
on a YouTube for example is the traffic
right so the reason that you want to be
a third party seller on Amazon is
because you could take advantage of the
flow of traffic directly on the site
sure and so if there was a way to be
able to stream on multi-platforms from
Trading view that’ be worth opening it
back up I think well we did that so we
we did integrate OBS um so we had
multiplatform streaming actually um yeah
yeah so I guess we just didn’t know we
stream every morning and we use trading
view every morning so yeah I think that
there was something to that as well I
mean um our marketing messaging wasn’t
really wrong on it um it’s not it’s not
a single issue right it’s not like the
product was shitty or anything like that
it’s um it comes from like um you kind
of have to have like a decision tree of
you know making good product if you
really want to invest in a single
portion of your product you have to
think about it from uh the engineering
standpoint like the product has to be
good right but that’s for us that’s kind
of table Stakes but the next step down
is okay how was that actually translated
you know and then step that further down
and how is that actually uh you know uh
marketed appropriately to various
customer segments and there’s a step
down from there and so it’s a decision
tree that actually needs not just input
from core engineering like core
engineering a trading view is amazing
like they Crush product but in terms of
marketing and messaging sometimes we
just don’t really emphasize certain
products enough and then uh I think some
definitely get lost in in the mix so um
without going into like proprietary info
could you give a rundown of the decision
tree that you go through like a quick
back of the napkin version my God the it
there is no linear process for deciding
things at trading view I’ll say that um
the most important factor I could say
you know not disclosing anything
proprietary but the most important
factor is uh customer feedback and I
think this actually separates us a lot
from um most other companies out there
most most companies I think especially
in the trading space usually uh it comes
from people who have been successful
either in trading or maybe been at an
early stage product before and they
believe well i’ I’ve done it before I
know what the customer wants um you know
the this the CTO or the chief product
officer of trading view he’s been with
us um since the beginning um and before
that he built two other companies and uh
you know he’s still in the trenches on
Twitter or on X sorry um in telegram uh
you know watching various YouTubes Etc
to actually understand like if
somebody’s like live streaming and
talking about our product we want to
know what they care about and he he is
that humble where he’s literally just in
the trenches chatting with customers
every day um that it’s like a level of
obsession that uh is is really hard to
come by I think because a lot of people
build an ego about like I know the way
things should be built um and he’s never
adopted that that uh personality so as a
decision tree input I would say uh
customer satisfaction and customer
feedback is the single largest component
everything after that is really um you
know uh does it hit that kind of 10%
threshold and what I say by 10% is you
know basically uh it’s actually a mantra
used by uh Facebook and uh X back in the
day was um you know does this have the
potential to lift our business 10% okay
and um if you don’t see that the outcome
can get you there even in its infancy um
meaning you can’t see kind of like a
clear trajectory to kind of put you on a
path path to at least having a 10%
impact on the overall business then it
it’s very hard for the executive team to
really bet on something like that and so
we take those two in combination what’s
the size of the potential product that
we’re trying to build plus is this
actually in demand uh as an example and
it’s actually quite well known um well
it’s starting to be quite well known now
but options is actually one of those key
areas that uh for a long time has been
uh a product requested feature but uh
internally we never really thought that
this was a business that would actually
be a 10% threshold business um until we
started to realize um that the Dynamics
of the equity markets are changing such
that uh when you have a zero commission
environment uh what that ends up doing
is killing a huge portion of broker’s
revenue and historically speaking the
Bedrock of say e trade or TD marit trade
has been Equity trading volume um what
that means ultimately is that they need
to find a different mix of products that
they can offer to their customers um so
Futures has become very popular as as we
discussed but um the other big product
and you can see this in like uh
quarterly results of of Robin Hood
Schwab like all the public companies
it’s options at the end of the day so
more and more because we are starting to
work with more and more Brokers um we
keep running into this as uh kind of a a
statement problem where a broker wants
to work with us and you know ultimately
they say okay well you have equities you
have crypto you have Futures where are
the options and uh and and so for a long
time you know the founders didn’t really
think it was a a product that was that
um compelling until we realized that the
whole Market had shifted around us so is
that because of any data that you guys
saw where you saw there was less
interest and options or was it just not
something that was on it was it was the
regulatory hurdle why did you guys just
out of all the different uh instruments
that just yeah we kind of forgot about
it well I think that uh no no at the end
of the day it’s when you’re building net
new product what’s kind of challenging
is you don’t really have a lot of input
like you don’t really you can’t really
you know uh just pick some like dust out
of the air and think like oh this this
has the potential to be successful or
not um you you really have to just
listen to um uh customer feedback and
ultimately uh for for options
specifically it came down to um we kind
of operate a little bit on say like a
mid 20000 thousand’s mentality which is
to say like we know what the market is
doing from a uh overall Revenue
perspective like who’s making money how
are they making money Etc we hadn’t
really updated those models as fast as
we could have and the new model right
the Robin Hood Type model is uh well
it’s completely different than the you
know eade type model uh eade type models
more traditional Robin Hood models much
more um dynamic in terms of their
product mix um and so yeah that was the
main input that we needed and uh
thankfully we got there so options will
be coming in the near future okay I
don’t trade options so I’m not this is
wasn’t a personal question but but I
appreciate the breakdown there are so
there’s this is might this might be a
little bit of a tough question but for
us an issue that we found is that
there’s a vocal minority of users of the
product that will give feedback and so
when you start making decisions based on
the vocal minority that’s when products
that launch don’t do as well because it
just doesn’t have that
integration so you mentioned that a lot
of the decisions you make at trading
view are um their objective M and so how
do you find that mix of knowing that
this is or being able to discern this is
a vocal minority that’s telling us to
build this one small Niche thing that’s
going to distract US versus something
that could have is that the intuition of
experience of knowing what people
actually really need or yeah so what
customer feedback is actually worth
taking that is like the biggest question
for sure yeah yeah no no no that is
that’s a billion dollar question for
sure um I would say in general the the
biggest um advantage to being big is
literally
that because we get so much customer
feedback now um we don’t really need to
weed out say the the bad eggs or the
good eggs because we can see an average
and in this case you’re not optimizing
for a couple key customers but uh across
the board you know I mean our support
system I think we have something like
3500 tickets a day um so in which case
these are support tickets or request
tickets that basically people are hey I
I need this or hey this is broken or hey
fix this I mean so the scale is really
like uh that’s the benefit you you just
get to see where where all the problems
are see um but that’s not always true um
when you are a small platform and
important for small platforms to realize
there there is a certain element of
intuition which is um you know being
able to talk to enough customers that
you start to recognize patterns even if
you don’t have thousands of customers
you still have to kind of uh aggregate
all that information and think about
okay across maybe these 150 customers
you know what is the most common thing
that comes up that’s that’s really like
the early stage mentality you got to
trust your intuition on that um but the
like I said the the chief product
officer of trading view has been doing
this before this he built another
product called e signal before this he
built another product called multicharts
so he he’s in the trenches enough to
talk to as many customers as humanly
possible and thus has a really clear
understanding I think of what’s the
threshold for is this worth my time or
not basically yeah I mean coming from
multicharts if you really think about
the Inception of digital charting
platforms so he’s seen it from the very
beginning and so I feel like that’s an
edge and so it’s incredible that he’s
able to hle Humble himself even though
he’s a Pioneer totally cuz the Pioneers
typically have the most perspective and
the most context yeah so that’s really
awesome so what what what do you feel
like drives him to do that is it a love
for the product is it an obsession or is
it just an A logical understanding that
customer feedback is the direct route to
progress like is it a personal thing or
yeah no no I mean I think to to talk
about what what drives him specifically
I mean you have to think about who who
he is he’s um he’s just a lover of
product in general he’s like a Tesla
Fanboy he’s like a a huge uh he loves
like products like uh figma which is
like a very very nice intuitive design
product um I think he in abstract really
uh loves product uh for itself and so it
doesn’t even really apply to markets his
his whole philosophy is just being the
best at whatever uh product we’re
building um ultimately is I think if he
was in any other category he would be
the exact same person which is like you
know he just like wants to build the
most Flawless product possible um and so
our design team is a reflection of that
like they are all meticulous and like
like really really refined and how they
actually pick out like I actually was on
slack the other day and there was like
this huge debate about the future of
beveling uh edges for our website design
and whether or not it should be a very
very curved Edge or kind of a more
slight Edge we’re talking a difference
of maybe 10 pixels and we have probably
50 different people arguing uh All In
Parallel as to the benefits and costs of
each decision and so that’s degree of
like separation between like Obsession
versus people are like ah it’s good
enough like you know it’ll work who
cares um they they literally uh obsess
over the details and it it it becomes
kind of an art form in that case like
they’re they’re operating on a
completely different wavelength and
people are like yeah whatever it’s it
looks good like no worries but there’s I
think that that 1% that is overly
obsessed and perfectionist but takes
action versus those that use
perfectionism as a crutch to not do
anything it’s like oh it’s not ready yet
it’s not ready yet yeah yeah true that’s
what I feel like is the difference
between the small companies that are
going to hear this and say oh we got to
sit down and deliberate no sometimes you
really just have to get projects moving
and uh yeah I think it’s really
important so speaking of Partnerships
trading view first had like the
integration platform with some of the
large brokerages but now I’m seeing a
lot of small scale companies integrating
trading view on their sites so talk to
me about those recent Partnerships and
uh where are you guys building out this
platform for companies like ours to work
totally um I mean we we had to start
with the big guys um that’s kind of how
we you know broke through if you will
kind of uh if you you really have to
chase some whales down in order to reach
uh escape velocity I think that’s clear
to say um but I mean now that we are as
large as we are we’ve we’ve definitely
grown up and um we’ve we’ve matured in
terms of how we you know build
Partnerships with with various firms um
I mean my team overall globally is about
177 18 people who just specialized in um
different regions um so we have somebody
specializing in Thailand we have
somebody in Australia somebody in well
two people in Japan we have couple
people in China um and they are all kind
of local experts uh into markets and
help us localize what we do on a global
scale such that um we can really make
the most impact on a local local market
um so we’ve matured that model and now
we’re able to go after smaller and
smaller companies to work with because
we actually have local expertise
combined with our Central kind of
Partnerships team uh that allows us to
really scale the effort uh in a
meaningful way um in total though I mean
it’s still a small team we have about 35
people on the Partnerships or business
team um and I think in general we we
want to do better we always want to do
better but um the the key the key factor
that we started to separate out was
again Regional specificity and then
product uh expertise and so product
expertise is we now have product leads
for each individual part of the product
Suite that we build um you wouldn’t
really know if you just came in the
front door which is tradingview.com but
trading view actually has about seven
different businesses uh built around it
everything from licensing of technology
to Affiliates um to advertising uh to
strategic Partnerships to data
Integrations to broker integr it’s it’s
insane and so we really had to like
build out a specialist team as well so
now we have like a crack staff of like
one or two experts per business line
that um that can really speak uh the
local language uh quite literally in
terms of what the product is but also uh
in a local regional market um that’s
allowed us to really expand kind of our
reach um and and something I’m really
proud of actually over the last couple
years that we continue to execute on so
I mean in total now we
have on a global basis about 8,000
Partnerships um which is uh everything
from random like
Tech uh startup who you know launched
like a uh a Bitcoin mining operation to
um you know uh some of the largest uh
brokerages and exchanges in the world
right the it’s the scale is is pretty uh
insane and um yeah I mean it just comes
down to really making it very very
repeatable and off the shelf but then
you have to have that local handholding
expertise as well yeah this question
might be esoteric but um if I could ask
you to make a prediction so I I’m kind
of harping on Amazon I just got finished
reading a book so you know how AWS was
one of those segments of the so you
mentioned that you have different
divisions of the tra business and they
never expected AWS to be the dominant if
you were to make a prediction about
which uh broker or which platform is
going to be the AWS for trading view
what would you say yeah I mean it it
that’s a great question I think
um I think initially we believed that um
our
charting product it’s our Bedrock right
it’s like what we’re known for
um we early on that was our first
product we basically built out a a
business line to um provide charting for
thirdparty websites um very very simple
in fact it was literally just a piece of
iframe code copy paste it into your
website super super easy um it was how
we uh initially kind of got the word out
very very simple so charting initially
seemed like a a focal point for us MH
and um the problem was you beat that
game and it got too easy or what I mean
in simple terms um uh two of our
competitors uh sold their businesses
last year um the third one shut down uh
the fourth one is still you know
crawling along if you will but uh but
it’s kind of wild I think we actually
kind of smashed that market it’s like
very hard to find really really
competitive charting products at very
very reasonable price the the problem
with that market I think overall though
as we’ve discovered is um once you kind
of saturate it um there’s not a ton of
um levers you can pull Beyond um you
know kind of very lowcost charting like
people don’t pay six figures to seven
figures for charts it’s just not in
their product budget and so we think
that you know the actual Revenue driver
or Catalyst for for the business is much
more around uh what we’re doing with the
brokerages and exchanges um
we integrate um some of the biggest
stock market exchanges Futures exchanges
Etc into trading View and we license
that data to individual customers so it
seems like not that big a business but
at at an enormous scale all of a sudden
we become a huge huge input not just for
us but actually for those exchanges yeah
um so if I uh was for some reason
trading like in Morocco or something
like that we are of the only providers
of realtime Casablanca stock exchange
data uh in the world and same goes for
like I was actually on a pan yesterday
um Mongolian stock exchange data who
knew that even existed but uh safe to
say we have it and we offer that in real
time um to customers all around the
world so that that business is almost
infinitely scalable um and we we realize
that uh applies to also The Brokerage
industry in general and so uh our next
goal is to just acquire more customers
in all those regions such that we can
sell more subscriptions of either data
or you know analytics or what have you
um so that really is the the AWS moment
and wow when I say AWS it’s like you
know
amazon.com is a great business at scale
right but uh AWS is the revenue driver
so for US charting is the
amazon.com but uh the revenue driver is
for sure the The Brokerage is an
exchange business and and that’s kind of
our our focus in the future that’s so
good W uh we touched on this probably
two questions ago but you know back in
the day there was a model of we had free
social medias and in exchange we had the
advertising model and then there were
some platforms that decided to go pay
wall and subscription instead of the
free model Y and so brokerages
traditionally had the fee model and then
now you have this Robin Hood um payment
for order flow model with no commissions
you being so integrated in the space do
you see a shift towards that low fee
alternative so that Traders get better
fee structures but in exchange they’re
selling the uh data or what’s the where
do you feel like the future is going
yeah I mean uh this one is um well quite
talked about a lot um we we definitely
see um the cost and benefits to these uh
payment for order flow type models um
but ultimately um I if I zoom out and
think about you know the space and the
evolution overall even a generation
before us um you know not to say that
I’m an old man but I’m an old man um the
generation before us was still paying
anywhere from uh 20 bucks to uh in
sometime like $50 per uh commission and
you would literally be calling a uh a
broker you know some guy sitting in in
St Louis and you know basically call him
up and say Hey I want to place uh U you
know a trade for 100 100 shares of
Microsoft um that was less than 50 years
I mean we’re talking like 30 40 years
ago um and so in general uh the fact
that that has gone away and instead
we’re replaced with a mobile application
that allows you to buy those five shares
of Microsoft um you know uh for less
than a penny um you know I think that
that is net positive um on the back end
what that creates is a lot of gambling
where people see such a lower barrier to
entry they just get started quickly in
this case commissions were almost like a
restricting factor to make you really
think before you actually act a cost of
Entry cost of entry and so in this case
there is some benefit to having a little
barrier there um I think taking the
training wheels off and giving everybody
a Ferrari is a bad choice but that’s
literally what you’re doing you’re
basically saying like you know I don’t
need to have like a Morgan Stanley Prime
broker I can literally go into the
market and make a trade right now for
for literally essentially free um so I
think that there’s you know pendulum
swings both ways right right now we’re
in the Robin Hood era um but I do think
you’re starting to see the beginnings of
a in between and what I mean by that is
that there are um some people that are
building subscription models around
brokerage there’s some people that are
building added Services um or you know
basically giving you the option to
either opt in to an order flow-based
model or opt out and go direct to an
exchange um and these kind of uh what
would you call it like sea of choices I
think is going to be much more
compelling for um maybe not the you know
kind of really basic investor but our
our audience in general they’re kind of
more um sophisticated in some ways and
so we haven’t really seen a new broker
come to Market that sits kind of between
a Robin Hood and between a Charles
schwap there’s really nobody in that
middle ground and that’s really I think
where the big Market is um for the most
part we see it that’s our audience but
um but safe to say no really stepped
into that and some people have um but
really they’re few and far between I’d
say like Weeble is a is a fresh partner
of trading view they integrated all of
their apis um to tradingview.com and
they sit in between this Middle Ground
they’re an advanced trading platform but
um they also do offer like zero
commission trading um and so I think
that there’s going to be quite a few
more of those coming to Market um that
do a little bit more cost a little bit
more but um but this kind kind of 0000
everything you do for sure have to think
about it a little bit kind of like the
Facebook how are they going to make
money so where is it going to come from
because if it’s not coming from the
front end then it’s coming from
somewhere and totally and you really got
to be careful with that I think um if
anything is free always ask questions
that’s awesome so in the future you’re
seeing more optionality as opposed to
this consolidation that we saw before
for sure AES I mean it the low cost it’s
kind of AWS as well like the cost of
building a broker now has fallen
precipitously for last 10 15 years um
it’s still there’s still fixed cost to
it but um in my previous role at this
company stock twits we built a broker um
I fully know that cost and it it’s
pretty cheap relatively speaking so as a
result barious entries falling um I
think there will be a lot of folks who
have the opportunity to to build small
kind of startup Brokers um and which is
a double edge sword you would say which
is more optionality but also more room
for shady Behavior Shady Behavior people
stepping into the market that you know
clearly shouldn’t in the market um yeah
but it’s it’s a free market that’s
that’s the you so to wrap up the like
the this conversation about
regulations how do you see regulations
changing in the future and I want to
talk about how you think it’s going to
affect your professional partners and
then how you think it’s going to affect
retail because I see the more regulation
that steps in the higher the costs are
and so when the prop firms got kicked
out from the states CU Regulators
stepped in now we’re seeing IC markets
in oanda start to kind of pitch these
ideas and Float these ideas around of
starting their own firms Y and we know
that those are going to be much more
expensive and they’re going to be much
more regulated and less efficient so how
do you see that game affecting both
sides the commercial side and also the
retail side yeah I mean I think that uh
it is for sure obvious to a lot of the
Brokers uh and the commercial side of
things that um this prop world is uh is
a significant business and I think a lot
of these success stories that we’ve seen
in recent time have been a result of
brokerages um not being like caught
flat-footed but essentially being caught
flat footed like they they really didn’t
see this Market you know coming and all
of a sudden you have these um top step
is a partner that that we’ve worked with
for some time in in Chicago and um we
licensed them a lot of our technology um
they they basically came out of nowhere
I mean they’ve been grinding for for
years and years and years bu business
has actually been around for a long time
but they switched their model slly and
all of a sudden it’s hockey stick growth
um a lot of Brokers are aware of that
and they do see this kind of uh new
generation of investors who want to have
these kind of combines or competitions
or things like this um that takes a long
time for a broker who’s a very regulated
entity to make a move or a shift in that
direction um but but safe to say now
that they do realize the size of that
business um it is for sure coming uh on
the retail side of things um I do agree
with you that uh the bigger guys are not
interested in providing maybe lower cost
Solutions um but that does actually
present kind of a Robin Hood opportunity
which is um if you think about it like
from a very um what would you call it
like a low cost um kind of prop solution
or lowcost trading combines are low cost
but also having infrastructure that is
actually reflective of like you know
traditional Market yes whether it be
like a trade station or whether it be
Ananda these guys have infrastructure
now if somebody came in and really
thought about it from you know kind of a
Robin Hood Mentality that’s um that’s a
big change and that’s a big shift so
awesome I think there’s probably a
couple people who will try that out
first but but it’ll take some time to
get there right because that first wave
is really Brokers trying to do this at
all as like a starting point and we
we’ve yet to see that so I feel like
their timing is impeccable because I
feel like they allowed the sandbox to
play itself and they saw the pros and
cons and then the regulatory landscape
is so unclear that now as soon as
there’s regulatory Clarity then they
want to step in but the issue that I’m
seeing is let’s take crypto for example
you can have a company like coinbase
play by the rules every step of the way
become uh become publicly listed and get
audited accordingly and still have
issues with the SEC because of the lack
of clarity in regulation so do you think
that the current regulatory environment
is sustainable for startups to really
build or is it always just going to be
if you get big big enough it’s you know
regular will step in and you’re going to
be in battled in lawsuits long enough
for your competitors to take your market
share well I think that it’s interesting
that um there are a few firms especially
in this space that um have taken the
necessary precautions if you will um
which is to say that like a lot of this
industry grew up overnight um but nobody
really uh built themselves like a like a
war chest um such that when regulars do
step in they’re ready to actually handle
that and so many of these firms simply
disappear or ultimately um you know go
by the wayside very quickly um so I
think that you know if a business is
really good if it’s making some insane
margin if you’re seeing 100x growth um
you always got to be cautious with um
how sustainable it is and ultimately uh
folks who grow too fast are uh for sure
targets uh meaning it’s just the the
nature of regulators is always going to
be reactive and the louder the firm the
easier it is for regulator to react
right um so I’d call it like rainy day
funds is a way to think of it if you’re
a startup and you actually really do
want to build in this space specifically
um you should you know think about how
you can really grow customer base but
always think about a rainy day fund
because um the reality is is you know
Regulators will come after you at some
point uh and so as long as you’re fully
buttoned up and the business is actually
you know operating above board um you’ll
be ready for that um for others who
literally are just managing it in Excel
spreadsheets and stuff like that you
know you you’ve got no chance right
you’re absolutely you’re absolutely
screwed so um was that a dig on s s pman
freed yeah exactly exactly awesome I
mean exactly um so just to wrap this up
there’s most of the audience that’s
watching this are going to be Traders or
investors So based on the trends that
you’re seeing uh is there any advice or
any words of caution or anything that
you could tell retail Traders uh just in
terms of the data you’re seeing maybe
folks are spending the most time
watching charts that they’re losing the
most money on or so is there any uh
interesting data point that you could
share that might give some insight to
folks sure I mean I think um if I step
back and think about like what’s what’s
been happening on trading view from like
a data standpoint um where people are
spending most of their time um it’s
interesting that a lot even in this kind
of recent boom cycle that we’re in it’s
literally a boom cycle for sure and I
don’t say that just because of like
prices going up prices go up all the
time but um but in terms of the traffic
that we see it is a boom like it’s it’s
the biggest numbers we’ve seen um in
history and uh as a result uh you really
got to think about okay where is all
this attention focused now um last week
it was like Salon meme coins uh next
next week it’s going to be [ __ ] base
meme coins and safe to say like there is
now this interesting um model which is a
lot of uh social networks kind of Drive
audiences in specific directions and you
got to really think about um not being
on the other side of that directionality
right if uh if you are in a bad trade uh
well if you’re in a trade and you have a
lot of conviction that’s totally fine
but the rest of the market may choose
otherwise and previously there wasn’t
that kind of crowd mentality but um I
think we saw it back in the day with
Wall Street bets perfect example um but
nowadays that that crowd mentality
really does crowd uh certain markets
what’s really wild though is um you know
if I look at all the data on trading
view there’s a ton of companies that are
doing insanely well in equity markets
and crypto markets Etc they get no hype
on social media and those are often the
places that I think uh are quote unquote
overlooked now you can’t invest in some
oil and gas company that literally you
know is never going to see the light a
day but you have to think about like um
you know is this a story stock is this a
real company um and can you potentially
find something that is both of those
like an actual business that actually
has you know story stock value or
potential meme stock value um and that
really is kind of that sweet spot these
days so um that’s so good yeah people
get caught up in like the dogecoins for
example where it only has the one aspect
which is the meme aspect cuz you know
it’s say somebody like Elon points in
that direction you’re going to be
success F but that is the anomaly and
what you’re saying is that there is a
perfect mix between both something that
has the potential to become a meme stock
or a meme coin but also has a legitimate
business infrastructure behind it yeah
and a legit leg hard to find but those
those do exist and um yeah maybe they’re
not discovered yet but I mean that’s the
thing is like this whole meme wave right
now is uh is just so new that people
aren’t really digging in that second
layer down which is like what’s the
under what’s the under the hood of this
business so um most of the viewership
for the salon of meme coins is probably
these guys on 15 different devices fair
enough fair enough yeah literally no
it’s it’s kind of a it’s a moment in the
market where people are literally you
know some people are making millions of
dollars overnight some people are losing
million dollars overnight um but that’s
that’s a good that’s that’s a sign of a
good Casino if you will so it’s not
exactly investing long term all right so
have a framework and have a clear system
for how you’re going to invest not just
go out there and follow hype but have a
clear Edge and have a clear uh way to
invest and honestly fomo is is a is a
factor you always got to think about
that but um but don’t
don’t kind of overexpose yourself
because you miss something that’s always
the worst trade 100% wow Pius thank you
so much thank you for your time today
ladies and gentlemen you guys can catch
all the links below if you guys want to
follow Pierce and stay in touch and of
course uh trading view the number one
charting platform in the world make sure
to click the link in the
description peace
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3 Comments
Another fire interview 🔥🔥🔥
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