Dapper Labs’ Playbook: Ridhima Kahn on NBA Top Shot and Virtual Influencers | GEN C Ep 75

Dapper Labs’ Playbook: Ridhima Kahn on NBA Top Shot and Virtual Influencers | GEN C Ep 75

and so it’s about taking things that
hook people in and then giving them
experiences that are really fun to play
with we brought those learnings over to
MBA top shot because the next move was
how do we broaden this out to and
increase the ability for people to share
their fandom in different ways and
sports are just such a fantastic vessel
for technology so we took the learnings
from crypto Kites and applied them and
decided that we wanted to do this with
the MBA which brought us into Top Shot
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[Music]
ethereum Avery happy gen C day we’re in
the 70s don’t know the number but as
always so good to see you what’s
happening in your world it is a gorgeous
day in Miami Florida I’m home today we
just wrapped up the possible conference
which was actually amazing it’s in my
home it’s in my backyard so I was super
excited about having all my marketing
pals come down it was really well done I
think there were 4,000 attendees which
is wild seemed to be about 4,000 ad Tech
vendors as well um heavy all selling gen
gen products exactly all selling gen to
help you with ad fraud and various
components like that but it ended up
being uh a really good couple of days
this is the possible conference right
exactly Gary kicked it off he Banger so
was super fun now it’s over and it’s
been a week it’s and it’s only Thursday
so how about you Sam how’s life for you
Life’s good New York is starting to get
a little warmer which we always love but
then of course being very fickle and it
was freezing yesterday but we’re pushing
forward we have consensus in a little
over a month so that’s uh taking a lot
of our time but I did want to start
Avery with I don’t know if you saw this
new James Bond trailer that just dropped
yesterday Margot Robbie Henry cavil in
the new Bond movie is already in one day
got 2.6 million views
except there’s a problem which is the
entire trailer is fake and it’s a
combination of AI and old footage from
other movies and you know it just
reminded me of the conversation we had a
couple weeks ago about will there be a
feature driven by Ai and here people
went crazy because they thought we’re
finally getting the bond we want
supposedly there’s a big push for Henry
Caville to be the next Bond and someone
someone made the trailer and it went
viral and then it was like oh whoops
this is just as fake as AI can create so
I didn’t know if you had any thoughts
about it I do I will say that one of the
things that it did unlock for me in a
Nuance way changing the opinion I had
when we spoke a couple weeks ago was I
still don’t think the studios are going
to be doing this in any meaningful way
in the next 12 to 24 but I do think for
individual creators who want attention
and to gamify attention it is such a big
unlock if they know how to creatively
edit well what actually kind of
triggered in my mind when you were sort
of explaining the scenario which I had
not seen on social I’ve been living
under Rock the past few days was that
this was something that people already
wanted so somebody like found this
Insight on social then created it that’s
how you make things go viral like what
do people want or what are people
talking about what are people interested
in how can I create something about that
and then launch it and that’s like a
huge part of our thesis a Viner of how
we think about social content creation
so I’m like yeah that works works every
time of just you know social listening
relevance than building something of
course we don’t build fake products but
even if we were going to do something
it’s like an April Fool’s joke we look
at like what are people talking about in
order to get the idea for you know what
might be relevant and fun agreed and
even you just saying that made me think
of like the whole subculture of
fanfiction and how now maybe your
fanfiction goes from being something
written to now something motion and
visual because you can with these tools
sort of make an evocative short form
story right now I know you you believe
it’s going to be longer you’re probably
right I’m going to give you that but I’m
still going to hold out my skepticism
until we get there this week also Avery
in the AI World there has been something
I didn’t know about but I wanted to to
get your thoughts about this have you
heard about the idea of the data wall
before no I have not okay tell me either
had I the data wall a bunch of articles
in New York Times as well as some other
spots but the idea is that every one of
these main AI companies open AI Google
Facebook have been ingesting all the
data they can possibly find but the the
reality is they’ve actually almost run
out of data they’ve just sucked up
everything there is and now they’re
worried they’re not going to be able to
get enough to train anything for the
future when you have all the data now
the problem is all of them breach their
own policy on copyright and privacy by
doing it and that’s the the story that
was in the New York Times we’ll put it
in the show notes which is really a
fascinating story about how literally
after you’ve ingested a million hours of
YouTube you still are like there’s so
still so much more we want to take but I
don’t I look at data and say there’s
endless amounts out there but these
companies look and say there’s not
enough out there for what we want and so
by hitting this data wall they are now
having to figure out do they have to
synthetically create more data in Ence
creating more data as the way humans
would do and llm to basically say hey
this feels like it’s kind of human but
both of them are synthetic in the end so
I just thought it was a really
interesting concept to think that open
Ai and others have run out of data to
scrape I want to get your thoughts if
you had any on what this does to the AI
world it is surprising that like isn’t
data sort of can it be infinitely
created I guess apparently not I need to
dig into it and sort of read the
justification on this topic maybe it’s
like it’s reached the maximum like
statistical significance where like any
additional data but then is it about
refreshing it that would be my first
thought is like okay great there’s a
certain amount but after time it gets
stale is it like there’s more of a real
time pipe and then how do you prioritize
like what it’s not first in first out
that doesn’t make sense you know you’d
have to have like a strategy around it
well as part of the story he was talking
about that that meta had been
considering buying Simon and Shuster why
because they wanted to ingest the entire
catalog right so this is all related to
this but but then again it goes to the
idea that when you know the contract
that YouTube has with the folks who put
YouTube videos up are that you as the
individual Creator own the copyright so
when open AI goes and say oh it’s fair
use because it’s out in the public when
it explicitly says you cannot do that in
their terms of service but according to
the article Google was like we’re
actually not going to enforce this one
too much because we’re doing the same
thing which I just thought was like it
was just fascinating the idea of I I I
like to think of the internet as ever
expansive and there’s always something
else to find but when you’re crawling at
the levels that they are at the compute
that they have you actually run out even
with this size of the internet over the
last 25 years of data and I think
there’s some people who fear that once
you stop ingesting human created data
and go to synthetic that you’re going to
get farther and farther away from True
human output in what their prediction oh
God Tim you always like to just kind of
kick off with these setting setting the
tone in a light manner don’t you I mean
these are the things we have to think
about Avery it is you’re always keeping
me up to date um I think I’m gonna
research the data wall that something
that’s is not a concept that I’m
familiar with but I should probably
should be yes uh the daily had an
episode this week as did hard Fork
audience feel free to jump in on those
it’s fascinating and I think it actually
has a lot of implications to me it had a
lot of implications to exactly the
problem you articulate a lot which is
we’re wary of using output because we
don’t always know where copyright is and
now imagine that they’ve now
acknowledged that a lot of the copyright
was violated in their ingestion of
things like not only the New York Times
suit but also things like a million
hours plus of YouTube video so it’ll be
interesting to see Avery we have an
amazing guest today someone we’ve been
trying to get for a minute um redeema KH
redeema is the VP uh VP over at Dapper
lab she’s been involved in a lot of the
big deals around like the NFL and Disney
they’ve done on the digital collectible
space they also acquired Michaela a
virtual influencer that both you and I
have been fans of and have talked about
for a while I we’ve been wanting to have
a conversation with someone in the
virtual influencer space so when we get
back from the break we are going to talk
to redeema from Dapper see you on the
other side see you on the other side
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and I’ll see you there welcome welcome
welcome everyone to generation C this is
a very special episode because we have
the one and only redeema KH redeema
joins us from her leadership position at
Dapper Labs where she has helped
architect the company’s Direction gone
through UPS Downs around the corners and
has continues to innovate in this role
so she’s someone that I know can bring a
lot of value to our audience on jensy
redeema we are so excited to have you
here great to be here thanks for having
me of course so redeema maybe just tell
jensy a little bit about you a little
bit about how you got into this role a
little bit about sort of how innovation
has been a through line across your
career sure so I’ve always been really
passionate about Mission driven big idea
work and so there’s a story for each
step in my career that that ties back to
that so initially I started my career at
City because I was at school University
of Michigan and I sort of saw how the
housing crisis was impacting the
communities around me and I disagreed
with some of the the practices of
mortgage lenders at that time so I
wanted to go in and change it C he was
the biggest one of the biggest mortgage
lenders and so I spent some time there
realized that with better risk controls
we actually could have mitigated many of
the issues with the housing crisis so
then I went into risk management at Bank
of America which is where I then learned
about hedge fund investing as part of
one of the rotations I was on and that
was really exciting to me because I
could sort of Leverage my quantitative
skill set but protect townside and So
eventually I ended up investing in
corporate instructure credit for groer
Capital Management which is a $46
billion asset allocator and from there I
wanted to do what I was doing but for
good causes so that’s what brought me
out to Silicon Valley initially and when
you think about the largest endowments
and Foundations all the returns go
towards great causes so I just searched
top foundations ended up at the huet
foundation where a team of 10 of us
invested 122 billion and then I spending
time in Silicon Valley I got to meet all
these amazing Founders and I thought
about how Tech could actually compound
returns for the world in a very
different way than perhaps direct Grant
making even and that led me to Andre
Horwitz who I was a partner on the
consumer team and I really just wanted
to support these Founders and help them
grow their companies while I was there I
realized that I had this passion for
building myself and I wanted to go into
that more deeply um I actually wanted to
start a real estate blockchain company
but I realized after talking to a number
of folks that it was actually too early
for the idea that I had and while it
could be great product the timing wasn’t
right in order for us to be successful
we would really need to get millions of
people engaged with blockchain
technology and I’d also been at that
time working very closely with the
Dapper Labs team and roham our CEO
really shared my vision of getting
millions of people engaged through
really seamless ways through fun through
games and I just wanted to join a
company where I could turbocharge their
efforts and I had a big vision for what
we could do with Disney and other
consumer Brands and so ultimately that’s
what brought me over to Dapper redeema
amazing thank you for sharing that with
us we’ve had collectively millions of
conversations but I do want for our
audience because you’re dropping Dapper
like everyone knows who it is and many
people may but some may not so could you
just give us a little bit about dapp or
maybe what got you interested in the
beginning in talking to them because I
believe they were a portfolio company of
andreon as well and then you know they
were involved in crypto kitties and Top
Shot and some of the bigger moments in
crypto at least in collectibles in the
last I don’t know six seven years so
maybe like just give us the tldr on
Dapper’s history sure so Dapper’s always
been at the Forefront of emerging
Technologies what they started crypto
kitties and that was one of the first
nfts our CTO de actually architected the
nft standard and then we acquired the
first virtual influencer Michaela and we
created some of the products that I
would say really launched or or got the
market excited about nfts to begin with
through some of our products like MBA
Top Shot we created the flow blockchain
which is one of the most highly
transacted on blockchains because of the
usability and scalability and
sustainability components of it so
Dapper’s always been at The Cutting Edge
of technology and actually spun out of
axm and Studios which is really truly
focused on on emerging Tech across the
board okay so you all have done so many
different sort of things at Dapper you
were just talking about virtual
influencers early mover on Lil Michaela
you were talking about the work that you
all have done on the flow blockchain you
also launched several Collectibles I
think daffer was the early creator of
crypto kitties and and a number of other
Collectibles redea I know that’s
something that you’ve also been
passionate about how do you weave those
different sort of Enterprises together
in a company like Dapper so we have
separate de dedicated teams but there’s
a lot of learnings that we can take
across the different products and I’d
also say that each product has helped us
learn more about the next so with crypto
kitties the team knew the technology
blockchain technology was going to be
really impactful but they didn’t know
how and so the team basically said all
right how can we get what do people love
well how do we get people across the
world s surpassing any sort of language
barriers to understand and be excited
about this technology and they thought
about cats Because the Internet loves
cats and breeding is something that we
can all understand across the world you
don’t need to speak one certain language
for that and so they thought let’s put
cats on the blockchain so in in an early
days they actually went to eth waterl
with Pokemon cards where they put
pictures of these very cute cats and
very funky looking cats that attracted
people’s attention and even today the
crypto Kitty stickers that I have are
really a conversation starter and that’s
what gets people hooked in and so it’s
about taking things that hook people in
and then giving them experiences that
are really fun to play with so whether
you want to accessorize or race your cat
there were many different games you
could play we brought those learnings
over to NBA Top Shot because the next
move was how do we broaden this out to
and increase the ability for people to
share their fandom in different ways and
sports are just such a fantastic vessel
for technology so we took the learnings
from crypto Kites and applied them and
decided that we wanted to do this with
the MBA which brought us into top shots
so some of the team members who were
actually Alan Carr who is one of the
early team members on crypto Kites and
Arthur Kamara they’re both spending more
time now on our new products helping to
develop those products and those
economies in new ways and that’s really
exciting because we’re able to take the
learnings but also evolve and expand the
audience which builds our mission of
getting millions of people on the
blockchain Reda I want to break this
conversation into two different sections
because Avery and I have been talking
now for months on Virtual influencers
and you guys in acquiring little
Michaela have one of the Premier virtual
influencers but we also want to talk
about the idea of digital Collectibles
which is such a big macro that’s now
been going on for four years to some
degree Top Shot kicked off the
collectible craze there was this bull
run in nfts a lot of it was started from
people who were just collecting Top Shot
moments kind of the new new Trading Card
new baseball card new basketball card
and and you also I think had innovated
the idea of like opening packs which was
like such a you know a way that anyone
who collects cards in any Arena now like
opening the pack and breaking the pack
is such a big macro of like how you
think about to reveal what what you’ve
gotten some people keep them clothes for
that reason and sell them that way so I
like I get why it was designed my
question for you with topshot was had
you guys predicted the success and The
Craze that would have gone on because
everyone I knew in nfts almost every
single person got their start collecting
Top Shot and I just wondered like was
that sort of based on the design or was
this like an unexpected whoa I can’t
believe we’re getting this many people
this much activity this much
conversation we set really high goals at
Dabber and I think it was more exciting
than surprising because we were kind of
just waiting for that moment and
iterating on the product to get to a
point where people could really really
understand the value prop and we’re
continuing to hone in on that every day
in our product so I would say that at
that time there were a few blogs that
were posted and that’s really what
propelled topshot to go viral because a
lot of people were seeing the value that
they could have they were these really
attractive Collectibles you know 99% of
of NBA fans won’t actually ever be able
to go to an NBA game themselves and so
to democratize that access to fandom and
offer surprise and Delight moments for
those who aren’t able to go to the games
or if you watch them online or on on TV
and then be able to sort of convert that
into something that you can own and be a
part of was something that no one had
ever really gotten to do before and
given the nature of the content
traditional playing cards were really
wouldn’t really suffice for this
particular digitally native fan group
that we had been targeting I love that
sort of digitally native fan group
descriptor because it’s always something
that people grapple with appropriately
defining it’s like are they crypto
natives because digital native is you
know you could argue so broad but also
you could argue the audience of flow can
and should be so so Broad um Rima I
actually want to talk a little bit about
sort of the history of Lil Michaela I
remember when Lil Michaela came out many
years ago and was really interested in
this idea of a virtual influencer and
she was really like the OG in that space
and then of course Dapper acquired the
rights to her agency or or however it’s
defined can you talk a little bit about
Lil Michaela’s journey and and sort of
maybe what you guys are up to with her
now yeah so Michaela as you mentioned
was sort of the OG virtual influencer
she started posting in 2016 and she’s
had this really great evolution of her
personality and her fans have really
grown with her so she’s always been an
activist really vocal about causes that
she cares about and her audience has
stuck with her through a lot of the ups
and downs of her life and she’s I would
say two-thirds of her audience are
female a third of them are male we were
really excited about the opportunity to
take Michaela and help her continue to
grow in different ways so you can see
that in the evolution of her post she’s
gotten much more involved in fashion
across the board Michaela has over 7
million followers she has over 75
million streams and a lot of the
engagement for Michaela really stems
from the fact that she is super honest
about how she thinks about the world and
the stories that she can tell and those
stories come from a really diverse team
of individuals who are crafting them and
sometimes even using Michaela as a
vessel to share stories of other people
that may not have a voice or may be
underrepresented and that’s really
valuable and relatable to a lot of her f
so it’s really fun to look through the
DMS that Michaela gets because I think
we’re just scratching the surface as far
as the two-way engagement that you can
have both with physical and virtual
influencers and there’s a lot of people
that will confide in Michaela say this
story was really relatable so what
you’re seeing as far as comments and
likes is really only one portion of the
way that people like to engage with
Michaela and that’s really what our goal
was from the outset so with all that’s
happening in AI it’s been really fun to
test out different Tech and because we
own the IP we can be really flexible
with what we do with her and she herself
is very interested in technology it
seems like you’ve dropped the will now
she’s just Michaela which noted I also
wanted to sort of ask you a little bit
about how Michaela likes to work with
Brands she’s very selective about the
brands that she works with she’s
represented by CIA so there are a few
verticals and they really need to
resonate with her one that really works
well our Forward Thinking brands or
anything that’s really tied to
sustainability so one of her recent
large campaigns was with BMW where there
was an 100% electric vehicle they were
launching they partnered up with
Michaela and that was a really great fit
for her because she cares a lot about
sustainability she wants to be at The
Cutting Edge of tech and she’s also very
interested in fashion so she’s always
commenting most recently on people’s
Coachella outfits she also has
interviewed people at Coachella and
she’s worked with some of the biggest
fashion brands like Calvin Klein and
Bella Hadid Burberry Prada Pan the list
goes on so that’s another vertical and
one area that we started exploring more
is the consumer Hardware Tech space so
what we just recently launched a
partnership with MSI gaming and that’s
for their OLED screens and so Michaela
just launched her campaign around that
as well so I would say Tech
sustainability fashion causes she
believes in she did do an nft drop and
all of the proceeds went to black girls
code and there’s a number of other
opportunities that we’re looking at
right now for her to be more engaged
from an activism standpoint and R I want
to talk a little bit more about the
category I think we’ve seen a lot of
certainly chatter about virtual
influencers a lot of brands are
investing in kind of metahumans and AI
powered chat Bots and such even the fact
that you can open your chat gbt app on
your phone and talk to it and go back
and forth I guess my question is I look
at all of these as like non-playable
characters that we have now floating
around us what do you think is the role
for these influencers personalities
artists that are really synthetic when
it comes down to it I just saw Coachella
another one performed how should we be
thinking about this do you think of
Michaela as a person or do you think of
Michaela as a concept or an entity wrap
our heads around how you get so he I’m
like Michaela loves cheese she
hates that is how we talk about her
internally because she’s been around for
so long that she has this personality
and a team that really protects the
character and and beliefs and standards
that Michaela’s held for so long that we
really always try to think about any
partnership or any activity we’re doing
in the context of is this really is this
a good fit does this tie in with
Michaela will it be authentic because if
it’s not her fans will pick up on that
immediately and that’s not always the
case with some of the newer virtual
influencers who have popped up but Sam
to answer your question I think it’s
going to continue to be more of a
two-way relationship we’ve talked about
different ways Michaela can help with
mental health because there is something
about let’s take inflection AI right
they just got absorbed into Microsoft
and I think that was when you talk to Pi
their initial chatbot I would talk to Pi
for hours at in the evening and I felt
like I should say thank you or good
night at the end of the conversation
because of the EQ component that they
have in piie and I think that type of
sentiment is something that’s really
really hard to evoke but we’re starting
to see that with some of the technology
and that’s the stuff that I’m really
excited to play with for Michaela
because right now if you are an
influencer or a Creator or an artist you
can’t necessarily scale communicate with
all of your fans but now there’s a way
to do that in a format that is phone
text with any form that that individual
prefers and it’s really customized which
is exciting can also be scary right and
I think we’re really in early days and
we have to be cautious and brands should
be cautious as they’re as they’re
engaging with the technology but the
prospect of it longer term even when you
think about open Ai and Sora is really
exciting it is really exciting and I
shared that optimism there’s so many
awesome opportunities but with great
power comes great resp responsibility
and with having I don’t know if you all
saw Mark Zuckerberg’s video today sort
of explaining how meta AI works it’s
literally embedded in Instagram now I
was just playing around asking like what
do you recommend to make you know a
video about sparkling water go viral and
they actually have a lot of like really
helpful tips and fans can probably
engage with Michaela in a really
personalized really fun way and that’ll
be an amazing potential Avenue for fan
connection but I want to shf gears a
little bit and talk about the fashion
industry and using virtual influencers
for both fashion and physically and and
um sort of virtual fashion shows I
haven’t seen any virtual influencers on
a runway yet but that’s probably coming
do you see these two worlds sort of
colliding whether it’s someone like
Michaela or someone like EMA from Japan
who is a big lifestyle influencer who
might have an interest in fashion that
might cross digital to physical world I
definitely think in the same way that
physical influencers can impact fashion
that digital influencers can and we’ve
seen a lift in engagement when Michaela
has done different fashion oriented
campaigns I’m really excited for
something that that actually hasn’t yet
happened yet which is truly digital
fashion now making its way into the real
world and you can almost see it with the
Shelli show for example I thought that
was a really futuristic show and a lot
of the digital fashion brands or other
um companies who are starting to engage
in that space we’re also thinking about
that as sort of inspiration and so I’d
like to see it go the other way around
where you’re creating something in a
digital world that then you can
physically actually wear but it also
unlocks the ability let’s say if there
was a digital version of some of what we
saw during Fashion Week available where
you can try on those clothes and in from
an AR format experience them and that
could be something that the the folks
that are already following Michaela
would be early adopters of because
they’re inherently you know have been
following a virtual influencer and so I
think that Target Market is really
accessible in that way Reda I want to go
back to Collectibles but before we do
what’s been the blowback if any from
Real World influencers from people who
are you know I think there’s 3 million
people in the crater economy last time I
looked who are kind of making some sort
of living from being involved in this I
could imagine there just like any other
job there’s a lot of fear today that oh
well if anyone can just spin up an
attractive intelligent synthetic
personality then what am I doing the
point of Sam even
existing I ask myself that a lot but
that’s a different question but but I
guess has there been blowback from kind
of the IRL K’s and virtual influence or
real world influencers about virtual
influencers yeah I think there’s always
a concern that perhaps virtual
influencers are going to replace
physical influencers and creators and I
don’t I don’t think that’s the case
Michaela has been around since 2016 and
it hasn’t necessarily taken anything
away so I think it’s going to be more of
a symbiotic relationship where virtual
influencers won’t replace authentic
human ones but there’s really space for
everybody in the market and brands are
going to have the option to tap into
both to serve their needs and then reach
different demographics the first thing
that we always ask a brand is what is
your objective what you really hope to
achieve with this if it’s just we want
to partner with a virtual influencer
then we dig into their broader brand
objectives mission and vision and really
help them craft what will drive their
business that’s aligned with their
broader objectives and not necessarily
something that’s just to test a new um
technology so I think depending on what
that brand is trying to do and a lot of
this is data driven so we have a lot of
information around what Michaela’s
audience loves what they’re excited
about and if that happens to resonate
more with a brand than a physical
influencers composition of their their
fan base then that makes it you know a
good fit but otherwise there might be a
physical influencer who resonates more
with that brand so really depends on
that Brand’s objectives and then we like
to craft something that aligns with
driving those objectives in the most
effective
way wait a Avery at Vayner have you guys
partnered with any virtual influencers
we have we have done a bunch of work
with virtual influencers over the years
and there’s something coming out soon
but we actually did a campaign in 2019
that was really amazing with a skincare
brand called sk2 we were doing the
social stuff and it was kind of fun to
go to the shoot and see the production
of a virtual influencer in a campaign
and this was like when virtual
influencers were starting to starting to
happen in APAC and specifically in Japan
they were known in China in the US I had
just moved from New York and I thought
it was insane it was like a virtual
person of course now five years later
that sounds so obvious but it was quite
interesting to me back then and
continues to be and you know we’ve also
thought a lot about sort of building a
stable of our own virtual influencers
for various like brand driven projects
we all know that creators work really
well for developing content but there’s
a lot of legal and ethical implications
which I’m sure Rima is is super familiar
with so we’re doing our homework but
trading carefully that’s the right
approach so redeema you did mention that
you all have done some really cool stuff
with BMW and some fashion brands can you
just talk a little bit more about what
you’re looking for in an ideal partner
for Michaela I’m sure she gets reached
out to you all the time yeah we’re
really looking for a brand who’s willing
to push boundaries and has a broader
Mission or Vision around a cause that M
Michaela cares a lot about so whether
that’s sustainability moving into the
future she’s very passionate about lgbtq
rights so we’re looking for something
greater than just a paycheck it’s more
about finding the right fit that
resonates and helps Michaela with her
storytelling but also is really relevant
to what that Brand’s goals are for that
particular product or for that overall
company so we’re looking for people who
are willing to push boundaries allow us
to experiment with technology where we
want to and how we want to without
limiting what we’re able to do and the
great thing about Michaela is because
she’s been around for so long people
know her story they know her UPS they
know her Downs so there’s not there’s
not a lot of surprises and with physical
creators or influencers sometimes there
can be and that’s great for some Brands
but other brands really AR quite strict
about how they want to manage their
brand so they know exactly what they’re
getting so there’s a lot of trust that
is built there and we we also try to
generate longer term relationships so
that it’s not just a one-off partnership
it’s something that we can continue to
engage with we think that’s the best way
to to tell stories long term Michel
seems very jenzy she’s purpose aligned
she’s not just going to take a paycheck
it has to really match her values yes
very while being very fashionable the
whole time exactly r i want to go back
to the collectible side because
relatively recently you guys announced
and have been rolling out this licensing
partnership with Disney with Pinnacle I
get a bunch of emails about this I think
was it Pinocchio is the the latest IP
coming out this morning or or yesterday
I know you have NFL all day which is
kind of Top Shot for the NFL NFL’s been
crushing it in the last year just as a
brand I I’m just interested these are
two massive Brands one how those deals
get done because I know you’re probably
in the middle in in the mix of all of
that but then also kind of what are what
are these Brands looking at from a
digital collectible strategy is this
just simply about more things for people
who love us that they can collect both
pH Bally and digitally is there a longer
term view that you think they have how
should we think of digital Collectibles
for big brands in relationships with
fans loyalty and kind of the future
relationships even as we think about the
game worlds to come and sort of this
mixed reality future of ours yeah so
brands are always looking to offer new
ways to engage their fans and new
opportunities to meet their fans where
they are sports entertainment fans are
inherent collectors so think a Mickey
hat from a theme park or a Jersey from
an NFL or NBA game our digital
Collectibles fit seamlessly into this
collector mindset and it’s something
that consumers are already doing so
there’s really no-brainer for a lot of
these Brands to get on board because
they’re providing another Avenue for
fans to engage and and really own a
piece of History Brands love the utility
of it and I would say there is a really
long view with many of our partners so I
had a chance to chat with Adam Silver at
the most recent MBA Allstar and you know
the MBA is a league that is super
Progressive and they’ve been around for
decades and they will continue to be
around
in my mind forever and in that sense the
way that Adam’s thinking about it and
the way that we’ve heard a lot of
leaders think about it is we have an
opportunity to make these bets to really
create a new experience for our fans and
that’s really how we view it as well we
want to create new experiences I think
there are a number of opportunities for
us to continue to expand the way that
those experiences come to life broadly
my view on digital Collectibles is that
we’re still so early so coming from a
background where I think about you
venture capital or corporate credit
investing these are 10year bets so right
now A lot of people are looking at the
space in terms of a year or two years
and I don’t think that’s the right view
I think it has to be much much longer
and so when I look at digital
Collectibles I think they’re going to
continue to be a space that we spend our
time in digitally but I’m excited for
them to further bleed into benefits in
the physical world as well so in order
for digital Collectibles to be
successful there are a few imperative
pieces one is an awesome onboarding
experience then there has to be daily
engagement whether that’s gamification
or social something that’s bringing you
back it’s a really big part of building
a product like Disney from zero to one
what are those engagement loops and we
need to reach that product Market fit
before we expand it which is why Disney
is still inclosed release because we’re
building up to that there also needs to
be deep integration with fan ecosystems
more broadly and open ecosystems and
that’s been a really big Focus for the
flow blockchain so we have our biggest
update coming up called Crescendo which
is going to make flow evm compatible I
think that’s really important for us to
get people to be able to use their
Assets in many different forms wherever
they’re spending time I think there
needs to be Network effects and that’s
something that you haven’t seen a lot of
to date in many projects but because of
the broad network of brands that are
building on Flow I’m really excited
about those Network effects so we have
the brands that Sam mentioned in
addition we have Live Nation Mattel and
then large crypto projects cryp toys
Doodles and so forth we’re all building
on Flow and so that creates a really
interesting ecosystem and then
eventually you know digital fan loyalty
platforms so you should be rewarded for
anything that happens in a partner
ecosystem with our products and you
should recognize the status or people
should be able to recognize the status
in in our product of what you’re doing
in that ecosystem so there really needs
to be more of a symbiotic relationship
between what you’re doing in a physical
world and what you’re doing in a digital
world and then finally I would say
really skin in the game fandom so the
betting space is huge I think there’s a
lot of opportunities and gamification
that we can continue to implement in our
products they really give people skin in
the game so when you think about these
Partnerships when you think of these big
Brands who were doing this I mean I
think there is so much opportunity that
people also are really Levering
themselves today for what is going to be
this additive reality tomorrow I was
talking to another brand who is a big
toy manufacturer who is also sort of
Levering their their strategy into
digital Collectibles and they don’t see
it as a oh just another way for people
to experience their products they see
this is how our products are going to
live in the future in video games and
digital assistant and all these
different SP spaces so is that also part
of the conversation which is now you’ve
created this Foundation if you will for
your IP to live in digital spaces so
anytime we’re partnering with a big
brand it’s really important to take a
phased approach it to Innovation right
so we want to start with the basics want
to find product Market fit and I really
consider that the foundation or phase
one and that’s where the time Horizon
that I’m talking about comes into play
there are a lot of exciting things on
the horizon
that we’re working towards and building
towards and where we’re at right now is
really I think early days in terms of
what we can achieve together with our
partners because there is a built-in fan
base we know what they care about all of
our products and Dapper studios are
built to address fans and what those
fans care about so in many of our
products you won’t even see Dabber labs’
name you just see MBA Top Shot or NFL
all day and and that’s important to us
because it means that we’re really
driving towards value for that end fan
the values of and what those fans care
about evolve very much over time and so
what we were doing is we’re constantly
talking to fans about what they care
about and than offering that in our
products and that’s the cool thing about
digital products you can evolve them
quite quickly and um for example the
major fandom around Victor wanyama was
really exciting to a lot of our fans
they wanted to have moments from his
first game wearing his first jersey and
we just sold a moment and it was sold at
over
$150,000 which is really exciting and
there will continue to be opportunities
for very rare moments because we heard a
lot of demand for that I love it amazing
redeema it’s so cool to hear all the
awesome things that you’re doing and
also just to bring It full circle like
you mentioned what originally attracted
you to Dapper was this sort of pushing
the boundaries and you mentioned Disney
was a big Vision you had to seeing you
bring that to life was literal fireworks
it’s so super impressive and I really
admire you in your career so thank you
for taking the time to chat with us on
gen C you’re fantastic and can’t wait to
see soon thanks so much for having me
really enjoyed the
[Music]
conversation Avery it had been like five
months that we’ve been trying to get
redeema to come on thankfully she
finally made it and delivered a banger
as usual so what what were your key
takeaways from talking to redeema you
know I’m bullish on Virtual influencers
I think that was a great buy by Dapper
and a awesome to hear sort of of
evolution of Michaela no longer L
Michaela what she’s up to these days and
the fact that she is such a
purpose-driven individual parentheses
virtual individual yeah I was gonna say
I I still have a hard time considering
them as people but I’m going to put all
that aside and say Yes Michaela is
actually a great personality super
interesting to see the evolution of this
I think we’re only going to see more of
it so I also wondered we didn’t get to
it but uh I wonder how much they’ve been
licensing or partnering with anyne of
the technology that they’re making since
it was you know sort of the early stages
of it were very much looked like design
Focus but I wonder how much of that is
now being powered by either ni game
engines all that all the stuff we talk
about every week and then I also think
that they don’t get enough credit
sometimes but I do think that Dapper
just for the sheer number of
Collectibles out in the world that are
digital has been one of the main
pioneers of this space so also I keep
being bullish that they sometimes they
get critique sometimes they get get
praise but they are just moving forward
with the biggest brands in the world
making this stuff happen we also didn’t
talk about this but Dapper is Still
Remains incredibly well funded yes they
not a small startup who has like 12
months of Runway like they can be at
this for a while yes and she dropped it
as a little bit of of note but it’s
actually a pretty big deal that that Flo
for the first time is going to become
evm compatible which does mean can
interoperable with a lot of other chains
they had been very siloed for a long
time people were complaining that Flo is
centralized versus decentralized Now by
becoming evm compatible it opens up a
ton of opportunity for them so good
stuff all right Avery have a beautiful
rest of your day enjoy your new office
chair more importantly thank you very
much exactly and um we’ll see you guys
next week jensy see you next week jensy

Ridhima Kahn, VP at Dapper Labs, joins Avery and Sam to discuss the company’s journey, from CryptoKitties to NBA Top Shot and beyond. She dives into the world of virtual influencers, detailing the evolution of virtual personality Miquela and the role of synthetic personalities. Ridhima also explores Dapper’s digital collectibles strategy, partnerships with brands like Disney, the NFL and the NBA and the future potential of this emerging space.

0:00 EP 75: Ridhima Kahn, Dapper Labs
00:45 Weekly News Rundown
01:36 Fake Movie Trailers with AI
04:04 Hitting The AI Data Wall
09:00 Interview with Ridhima Kahn, VP of Dapper Labs
11:59 About Dapper Labs
16:41 On Starting NBA TopShot
17:59 Miquela & Virtual INfluencers
23:30 Virtual Influencers vs IRL Influencers
25:50 The Future of Digital Collectibles
37:11 Recap and Final Thoughts

Links mentioned from the podcast:
AI-Generated Bond Movie Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcIv4hGDZeE
How Tech Giants Cut Corners to Harvest Data for A.I.: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/06/technology/tech-giants-harvest-data-artificial-intelligence.html
Dapper Labs Website: https://www.dapperlabs.com/
–
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Consensus is where experts convene to talk about the ideas shaping our digital future. Join developers, investors, founders, brands, policymakers and more in Austin, Texas from May 29-31. The tenth annual Consensus is curated by CoinDesk to feature the industry’s most sought-after speakers, unparalleled networking opportunities and unforgettable experiences. Take 15% off registration with the code GENC15. Register now at consensus.coindesk.com.
–
“Gen C” features hosts Sam Ewen and Avery Akkineni. Executive produced by Jared Schwartz and produced by Uyen Truong. Our theme music is “1882” by omgkirby x Channel Tres with editing by Doc Blust. Artwork by Nicole Marie Rincon.

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