Safe Harbor – Legal Engineering for a Bio-Crypto Future in Vitalia
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to be a celebration of your work of the
innovations that you bring to life and
of that development for Humanity that
comes with them I would also want this
Summit to serve as a call to action as
we continue to move forward into the
second part of the 21st century our
world faces particular challenges for
It’s Time a world where hunger and need
are still very precedent yet we know the
best practices and institutional changes
that would improve that reality we know
about the importance of rule of law and
legal security of accessible and
trustworthy governance
services that brings us here to prosper
and to the broader special economic zone
regime in Honduras these Oasis of legal
stability that could dramatically
improve the country’s conditions
according to Scott Alexander prosa said
that is the most Innovative legal system
in the world and I canot test that I
live here I practice here in the
frontier here we can design tailor
regulations with direct root access
control enabling good actors to pursue
their dreams and bring Prosperity here
you have a blank canvas for proposing
good practices that serve Cutting Edge
Innovations as has already been seen
with the growing financial and medical
Industries I am convinced
that initiatives such as prosper and
Vitalia such as Moran said such as
Kaba represent the Advent of the network
state that represent an inflection point
in Social customs and organizational
structures new forms of governance are
opportunities for improving
institutional conditions worldwide
impacting the quality of life of
humanity many times attorneys have been
un Heroes of Social and cultural
transformations of changes in people’s
minds and hearts and the way we interact
with each other around half of the
signatories of the Declaration of
Independence in the United States were
attorneys people that put everything on
the line for their convictions people
that risk their careers and their lives
for a better future we must assume our
time in history with the utmost
responsibility and moral urgy
and that’s why I’m happy to see such a
strong assemble of forward look forward
thinking individuals here we are
together as a group of pro technology
legal minds biohackers and crypto
Futures to continue building the legal
foundations of a better future please
stay curious during the summit talk to
each other I hope you enjoy this
experience and I’m looking forward to
seeing what comes out of it and to
seeing your ideas during tomorrow’s
pictures um the time is now com let’s
continue
[Applause]
building thank you so much Christian for
that words uh next I would love to
invite into Stage Eric Gman the CEO of
prospera who’s working on making all of
this possible
[Applause]
since we’re an intimate crowd if you
don’t mind I’ll just stay a little
closer here and um talk through the
topics
but you know small is good in some ways
I think this event is going to be
awesome because of the intimacy that you
guys are going to be able to go through
I must admit I have lovely relationship
with the profession of
lawyers as much as the highlights that
we all can be heroes um but I guess you
know it’s not with the profession itself
it’s in the way gets exercised in most
places around the world because the law
ultimately can be used as a blocker not
an enabler for Innovation and prosperity
and um and in a very real way that’s
that’s why we’re here you know that’s
why um the founders the Honduran found
founders of the Z System created what
they created which by the way I be
remiss not to call out Mr Carlos petta
here who in case you all don’t
[Applause]
realiz Heroes of society largely came up
with this system andly over
decades
La he’s a lawyer so he would know uh to
make it happen so a lot of
people look at us frosa or morazan and
you know the CEO as the people who made
it happen and of course who worked a
butt off and have put a lot on the line
to to add to it but we are building on
the shoulders of giants Through the Ages
and very much here in Honduras and
people look at the these amazing
innovations that we’re going to talk
about and they can’t fathom that the
actual root of it is Honduras and durans
it wasn’t some Bingo or somebody else
who came here and give him the secrets
sauce garos is one of three people in
particular that are the intellectual
Engineers of this program so you have an
amazing privilege to have him here
amongst you so thank you Cal very very
much let it be known to the rest of you
all that we acknowledge you and
appreciate your tremendously please
always um so the law it can be an
enabler it can be an obstacle far too
often and in too many places it’s the
latter but we’re here to make it the
former and why well because the world
needs it okay and the world needs it for
sure so that we get the flying cars and
life extension and all the cool things
that we can imagine in a very positive
sense and and the focus ought to be that
but we also cannot forget the other side
of the coin the coin that is very dark
the coin that breaks our heart when we
see children starving or potential go
wasted throughout the world and Honduras
is
unfortunately a case study of lost
opportunity up until now but we cannot
forget that that is the source of the
amazing platform that we have to build
upon because if we forget that we’re
going to at a minimum Miss opportunities
to make sure that what we’re doing goes
powerfully to address those fundamental
issues it cannot just be about the
bleeding edge of innovation so that we
help people go from millionaires to
billionaires or from living 90 years to
living 150 that’s great but we have to
honor the
source and you know there isn’t such a
thing as Prosperity if it’s not
generalized so we have to remember the
context in which R in and ratan in a way
it’s not manifest of Honduras as a whole
so it’s easy to forget but all these
Innovations matter yes because of the
Innovations but in the
end I am here and I hope many of us are
here wanting to contribute to the
overall well-being and we cannot slow
down so that we move only as fast as the
average that’s a silly thing to do we
have to innovate Le frog we cannot slow
down but we can’t forget that there’s a
route here that we must agress so please
remember that
now the way we set up Prosper
Prosper again built upon the Honduran at
system and with the support of many
people uh and we also have the honor of
having Nick draus here our general
councel and chief engineer and architect
of a lot of the legal foundations layer
one if you will but we created it in a
manner that contrary to perhaps an
extreme way of looking at the world that
thinks that
regulations and the legal system and
politicians are always and out of intent
there to destroy value and that
therefore you should just get rid of it
all right and maybe just I don’t know
have some form of anarchism that
hopefully works out somehow we built it
trying to consciously balance between
the legitimate needs for a society to
limit the capacity of individual actors
to cause and extreme amounts of negative
externalities on unconsenting third
parties okay because even at the extreme
way of considering private property
individual sovereignty it is embedded
therein that no third party should harm
a person that is not consenting to the
risks I think we all agree on that so
the the the the principle behind how and
why there were some form of rules
publicly shared that without signing a
contract you’re somehow Bound by the
so-called social contract the the reason
for existing is
legitimate modern
society requires rules that we all abide
by so that there’s Clarity but also
protection of our individual sovereignty
and property rights of course it gets
completely overdone and we’ve seen that
in the regulatory State and to a great
extent it might not even be out of the
individual intentions of most actors
because maybe most actors politicians or
Regulators think they’re doing it for
the better I have yet to need somebody
although I have you know heard of them
but that is very impactful and is just
purposely doing to screw everybody else
to you know to just limit Innovation
just because they don’t like a better
future of course their consequen is the
same but the intention prepare will be
good the problem is
incentives overdone
and also monopolistic power and
therefore the loss of true knowledge of
how the system is evolving if you
control it all you can’t possibly know
all and therefore make best decisions so
when we designed the layer one of what
is today prosperous we tried to balance
that maximum flexibility with some
degree of Baseline shared standards and
the best way to do it of course was to
build upon common law international
common law which obviously he’s heavily
British and American but we now call it
the RO time common law code which I know
is a bit of onox more but you gotta you
got to put it somewhere for people to be
able to read it and I thought it was
crazy that it would take 3,000 pages I
guess it’s about 1,500 if it’s single
page but I thought what the hell are we
doing I didn’t sign up to come up with
1,500 pages of legal mumbo jumbo like I
hate lawyers damn it why can’t we just
do it simply of course it turns out that
1,000 3,000 5,000 Pages compared to how
many millions of pages of legal code
would exist in the US just to understand
the basics it’s it’s a an amazing Leap
Forward of simplification and especially
because in common law you have standard
concepts of Do no harm and you know the
rational approach etc etc so we had to
start with something that had evolved to
be the best possible up until the dat we
had to create something that can
withstand the ch challenge based on
existing paradigms in the world which
whether we like them or not continue to
believe that regulation is necessary and
a net positive so to try to convince the
world that everybody’s wrong and that
we’re the only ones that are right
somehow and on top of it in Honduras and
on top of it being foreigners obviously
was never going to happen well at least
so we believed at the time so most
Advance yet accept the Maya required us
to acknowledge that you know what if
you’re engaging in some industries that
have been universally considered to have
high risk of negative externalities and
those fall in the typically regulated
Industries you have to take an extra
step and operate in a manner that
intentionally requires you to think
through how you’re going to do so so as
to minimize the risk that you would
cause significant harm to unconsenting
third parties you should be able to do
that under common law and we have that
within Prosper but has a high threshold
of personal responsibility you can’t
hide behind some legal shell no matter
what a lawyer tells you or you could
pick literally any of the options around
the world decentralized open competition
starting with oecd and then additional
pure countries so that nobody could ever
claim that we’re taking something that’s
crazy out of the bank now we’re proving
that slowly this is still literally the
earliest of the earliest of the days of
proving out this legal system but
surprisingly it seems to be working the
other you know the lab that started here
they chose California regulation I would
have never thought California
regulations you always hear that it’s
the absolute worst but for their Niche
need California was the best some Bank
chose British and it’s just like amazing
to me and I love it because now I’m
starting to love lawyers that get the
system and that can leverage an open
platform to enable clients and
entrepreneurs to create the most
innovative solutions to the most present
problems in a manner that is not in a
vacuum on some Caribbean island we in a
dome we’re the only ones that get it and
we respect it right because then we’ve
achieved nothing we’re just talking in a
vacuum to ourselves in a manner that has
the possibility of being recognized
internationally as legitimate as in fact
operating under a standard of societal
needs to ensure no negative
externalities compes the third
parties so I could go on we’re very
passionate about this we’re very
passionate by you taking your time to
try to come here and explore how you can
build upon shoulders of
giants responding entrepreneurs building
this layer
one and I very much look forward to
Sunday to hear the pitches and the ideas
I will not be around as much today but
it is only because it’s my son’s 10th
birthday and it’s a very special
birthday and I should be there with him
right now but I’m here with you and I
love it so if I have a few minutes I
would love to see if anybody has any
questions and I’ll be able able to
answer those otherwise I’ll hand it back
to the MC any
questions okay all right well I’ll be
around thank you very
much next up I would like to introduce
Nicholas his uh founder of Balia he’s
also founder and partner at infin VC and
also a podcaster in stranded
Technologies podcast welcome Nicholas
thank you great everyone of you is
here uh to continue the metapher I’m
feeling that I’m standing on the
shoulder of giant that stand on the
shoulder of
giant so if you remember one thing about
this presentation you know there’s a
layer zero the legal the intellectual
foundations that the Honduran reformer
such as car P built and then there’s
something like a layer one a physical
manifestation in the real world where
these laws are applied which is prosper
and with Vitalia we’re building kind of
a layer to we want to build a district
within Prosper a district that’s focused
on
ATT on biotch
specifically about
that do I have slides
yes all backgrounds
so no up to the stage
no okay thank
you yeah but first of all of all um some
of you have been at the dinner yesterday
where I mentioned until two years ago I
also used to hate lawyers and law that
changed two years ago when they came
here and they learned how Innovative
lawyers can be and how really
understanding law um the way it’s
practiced here can be a superpower and
that first of all led me to start a VC
fund called infinita because I started
to understand and explore how much of a
difference this could make for startups
right there were startups already here
like minicircle areial Loop and the
circular Factory that were building
stuff in the real world based on better
regulations and doing it faster with
infinita I invested in more startups
that set out or that would have the
opportunity because they regulated
Industries to accelerate through a
better Legal
Foundation and they ended up um doing
Vitalia simply because I think Vitalia
or biotech longevity biotech especially
has the biggest potential to thrive here
proser I’m going to talk about
that
so yeah so first of all biotechnology as
this quote by the science fiction author
Arthur C Clark officially advanced
technology is distinguish of magic once
you learn about biotechnology you can’t
help but get that impression right we’ve
decoded the human genum the language of
life right covid vaccines mRNA crisper
there and the knowledge is accumulated
in the age of computational
biology and that gives us or makes it at
least scientifically we have this a
possibility and Nobel prices have been W
for that that we could end or age
related diseases right diseases that
come from a right so aging is the
biological process that leads Downstream
negative consequences and we could
potentially intervene in human bi ology
to tackle aging as the root cause of
other diseases this is a very famous
scientist and also Vitalia resident
named Au de gray who had a famous Ted
Talk in 2006 and believes radical life
extension is possible and we should do
much more to achieve it and I came to
agree with
him there’s however one very big problem
and that problem can be encapsulated by
the term ir’s law so ir’s law is Mo’s
law in Reverse remember Mo’s law
right it’s the doubling of computing
power roughly every 18 months or every
two years um yum slows to reverse right
so what happened for computing power the
reverse happened in drug development so
the rate of new drugs developed per
billion in R&D spin has been going down
dramatically right so this is a
logarithmic scale not a linear scale and
this is despite computational biology
despite morl despite the amazing
technology we have right now it takes
about 10 years and plus 500 million to
develop new drugs and treatment and as
our friend
basan once said it was easier to start
Bitcoin than to reform the FED will be
easier to start a new country than to
reform the
FDA and I think he has a particularly um
insightful quote that describes the
current process How We Do regulation
right to be writing high stakes laws on
paper at the last minute right so of the
regulation that got us where we are
today think of 911 and the Patriot Act
or in 1962 that was basically the 911
for for healthcare which was to Uber
erors amendments that were done in a
rush in response to a public health in
disaster same with Co right so making
laws in haste and in rush and then you
can’t get rid of them right so this is
the system we have now and this leads to
only one Trend which is upwards when it
comes to new regul
so this TR is the total Pages published
in the code of federal regulations in
the United States um and this is also
Vivid example of the federal tax code in
the United States right so from 400
pages to now almost 880,000 Prosper I
think that fits in one page or four
pages so what’s how do you do a startup
in this space right so that was The
Guiding question for so I learned from
Prosper they’re basically starting a
startup how governance service provider
that does things differently that comp
by providing a better service so how
could we do that for
biotechnology right there’s already a
trend that’s been happening you’re very
well aware of that because you’re in
what is in my view the leading and most
advanced project in the space of what we
call startup societies right so there’s
a bigger Trend there’s another Charter
City on in Honduras called Zaman it’s an
older map but since then it has the
number of projects we have increased has
other charters project or what biology
calls Network states which start first
with the community another jurisdiction
um and it’s becoming what a bigger
Trend so we wanted to utilize that to
find the jurisdiction that is pro
technology where we could accelerate bi
your and we found that surprise surprise
here right so that was kind of my
starting premise anyway I started from
prosper and then to find the industry
that worked for it um and again as Eric
already said um we believe it’s the most
or Scott Alexander said it’s the most
Innovative ecosystem in the world which
I can totally get behind um so you can
do a lot of things when it comes to
using crypto when it comes to tokenizing
property rights or land or REM assets
and it has an enormous degree of
regulatory flexibility um which can lead
to us to go much further when it comes
to medical Freedom which is something
that I think is important premise to
build a better healthare
system so we started this endeavor with
a popup city right so for those of you
who don’t know a popup City or is a is
an idea or is a manifestation that last
year vitalic luin the founder of
ethereum has spawned into existence
there was a two-month pop-up City in
Montenegro that greatly inspired us to
start another popup City here right
that’s focused on biotech right so we
had and to to be honest to my amazement
and surprise we did reach uh the same
some probably even higher levels than
zalu in terms of attendance we had more
than 500 people visiting and most
importantly we wanted to prove that um
we’re not just nomading here and then
leaving but we want to build a permanent
community and a permanent Community
would entail that we build real
businesses that’s the ultimate purpose
right so we built biotech company and
some non biotech as well because
healthare is also a lot of other
incentives and we get to start working
here as a result we have 50 startups
that had registered with us with the
program 30 that pitched on an investor
demo day seven of which received funding
to retire so it has started it has
begun it also attracted um really really
influential people in our space all
these people were here in person naal
rikun here basan AR gray Brian Johnson
and um more people that have had a
tremendous influence on me I can highly
recommend work with Jessica Flanigan for
example when it comes to uh medical
Freedom so with Italia we want to have a
physical manifestation as well and right
now our plans are to spend a lot of time
and lease um slash buy um some of the
Duna residences which I can highly
recommend you check out tomorrow right
so adjacent to um to to the pristine Bay
Area here here is uh what’s called the
better District so this is where Walia
was at cemp and move in many of our
people right so this is also the beta
building there we where we plan to work
from so this is again the legal based
layer um I’m not going to talk too much
about that because all of you know what
that means that’s just a particular
podcast episode that highly influenced
me in understanding the legal system
here Tom W Bell was of the creators of
ulx which is basically an open source
common law code base that Prosper is
prosp legal system is based on Nick DZ
will talk a lot about
that and it has been another reason why
we chose dislocation is it has been
successfully used so a biotech company
called minicircle that’s been funded
that’s is right now valued at 100
million developed Po and gene therapy
here together with local P again a case
study that we’ll talk more about
tomorrow and it has been now used
through medical tourism by this man here
for example the longevity Mega
influencer Brian Johnson he came here to
get the treatment and he came here a
second time during Italia and brought
his dad to get the
treatment so I think what’s really most
important or Most Fascinating about this
jurisdiction which was going to be the
guiding theme of this um of this of this
um of the Summit is what we call
regulatory root access control right to
the regulatory
flexibility right so with Italia we want
to use that flexibility there’s already
two medical regulations many Circle
andar that Christian will talk about and
We additionally are working on a crypto
asset regulation that allows us to claim
that um we are registered we offer can
offer registered crypto assets or
regulated crypto assets that will go
into
tokenization um our goal is to
eventually have more than 100,000
physical residents and allow companies
to go to market with new drugs or
treatments in less than six months and
use that to develop treatments that
radically extend healthy human
lifespan if you want to join us I mean
you I already have right so you with
your payment for this conference you got
an access pass that’s valid for an
entire year right and this access pass
gives you certain benefits there all
sorts of discounts you get around here
you can get a big discount and that’s
around us whenever you come back in the
future if you’re working on a startup uh
legal is also very relevant to us
because that’s an enabling factor for
biotech please join the startup
accelerator and investment
program again I hope I didn’t extend my
time I didn’t look at the timer again
thank you every thanks everyone for
being here and we’re really excited to
have you and to have deeper
conversations with you thank
[Applause]
you thank you Nick
next uh please let’s welcome to the
stage uh Mason
bump welcome
Mason may this protocol council at uh AI
layer labs and also head of governance
at Lex Dow welcome it’s a pleasure
having you
here pleasure to be here um you might
see me looking down at my phone I’m
taking a few notes but really my goal
here is just to get us talking and get
us talking about what legal engineering
could mean as we develop into a global
phenomenon that supports scaling of
legal principles for Humanity uh using
the technology that we’re all familiar
with um my take on legal engineering
sure is that
better okay my take on legal engineering
is that it’s a a combination of two very
ancient professions uh on the one hand
you have scribes at the root level
scribes evolved into lawyers but they
inevitably use technology as Engineers
did Engineers were the caretakers of
technology and I think that the
combination of these two things will
allow us to uh scale Humanity in a very
effective
way what we’re talking about here is a
uh there there’s a strong parallel
between the uh between the city states
of the Renaissance like
Venice and
uh will kind of allow us to scale
Humanity in a very uh in a very free way
in a way that hasn’t been seen for a
very long
time honestly this wouldn’t have been
possible without legal Engineers legal
Engineers are the new high value uh the
new high value person new high value
individual that will continue this
growth going and I think that we’ll see
many more pop up in the years to come
with that
assistance currently we only see legal
Engineers recognized as at the Master’s
level at Stanford and it’s been taken up
in in the charge by
lexow uh which is the legal engineering
Guild of which myself and Kyle and many
others here are also a part of uh but I
think that it’s best that we just get
into it what uh we’re trying to do here
with this uh Fishbowl panel is really
just get conversations going but we’re
going to hack it a little bit we don’t
have time for a full traditional
Fishbowl but um what we’re going to do
is have a breakout I’m going to ask
everybody here to to stand up and start
uh talking with one another about the
promp that I’m about to give you we’ll
come back in 5 minutes and I’m hoping
that we can get four to five people up
here to start the conversation but I
want it to be an open conversation I
want us to feel comfortable sharing our
thoughts and hopefully we’ll end up
somewhere that solidifies a little bit
of what we’ve been building here so for
the first prompt what I’d like you guys
to talk about and maybe we can reach a
consensus here is how can we solidify
legal engineering globally as a catalyst
for in
humanity so everybody get up out of your
seats Let’s uh let’s talk it out and um
we’ll hopefully have a good uh a good
recitation of some of the different good
ideas that come through
manys uh we’ll split it up into uh three
groups yeah could you repeat the
question one more time so the question
that I want you guys to think about in
your three respective groups is how can
we solidify legal engineering globally
as a catalyst for the growth of humanity
t
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if you can hear me clap twice if you can
hear me clap three
times so uh what’s going to happen next
is that you need to send our
representative uh from each group to the
front so volunteers from each
group we have two volunteers there come
here
please Kyle is nominated
all right guys thanks for volunteering
uh to start the conversation um this is
a free flowing discussion and uh I
definitely want people rotating in here
as people start talking so uh I’m glad
that you guys had a good conversation
for those five minutes I can repeat the
pr for you uh it was how can we solidify
legal engineering as globally as a
catalyst for the growth of
humanity well I had a great uh uh group
here with uh Brendan and Eric and Kyle
and we I learned something new that
there’s a group here in Ludas that is
already doing some of what we were
talking about which is organizing the
law ement and my pitch there is that we
need to do more uh and hold law your spe
High a little harder uh you know make
them make them uncomfortable they do a
better job when they’re a little bit
nervous and uh one of the projects that
I’m really excited about is this visual
markup language for diagramming law and
making it more visually accessible I
think it’s a really high standard but
this is what people are doing at uh
status uh which is a messaging company a
web free messaging company and they’re
doing all their work in bpmn which is a
visual language that’s also an XML
language that you can process dig read
and observe and it really is kind of
exciting what they’re doing so I am
hoping that there will be more visual
markup before longstead of more people
can
use thank you completely agree on that
uh over in this corner of the room we
got into kind of the nature of the
question this this is that yes thank
okay over in this cor of the room we got
into kind of the nature of the question
uh and and realizing where it’s it’s
coming from is is like way far down the
rabbit hole um to say to like introduce
the concept of legal engineering is to
say that there is an nexcess of
jurisprudence and Engineering which you
know if if I were to say that to
somebody on the street they would have
to like stop and process that before I
was even able to to pop the top in the
concept uh and then directly related uh
we realized that legal Engineers
uh one of the the foundational ways and
that’s kind of of a a mind Blaster of
people is a lot of what I know legal
engineering to be I think most people in
this room understand legal engineering
to be uh is product and strategy that’s
geared towards cyber space and so we we
all understand cyber space as something
that is very tangible and and a place to
to move and interact in uh to the point
where we we kind of take for granted
it’s it’s de facto uh role
as as a pseudo jurisdiction so um
becoming a legal engineer also requires
like this this basically ex cyber
background that not everybody has so so
understanding that legal engineering
exists within the context of a
hyper hyper culture uh and then that to
legitimize it to the world we would need
to legitimize a couple other Concepts uh
was was a really interesting excuse me
that we got a along does this work okay
yeah so I think uh speaking of taking
things for granted I wonder for taking
for granted that we need anything more
is it how do we know we need anything
more and do we have too many laws too
many professions too many
specializations or not enough coming
from the other edti and morizon there’s
a very different approach to the legal
system there there’s only a few hundred
pages
of laws and regulations as opposed to a
few thousand Pages because it uses the
entrepreneurial Community model in which
laws and Norms are enforced more through
the landlord it’s a community in which
everyone rents property so instead of
leading uh how high can your decibel be
and every little minutia being codified
you can use a more common sense approach
and leverage freedom of Association to
regulate and enforce
and I found it to be a much more
efficient model with better incentives
legal engineering is sort of trying to
find loopholes and ways around things
which is kind of a perverse incentive at
times where you may be following the
letter of the law but not the spirit of
the law and it can lead to all sorts of
things sometimes positive and positive
group holes but as we’re seeing this
week with the SEC and Vincent Crackdown
they can really Bend these money Serv
service business laws which were created
way before crypto don’t really make
sense in the context of the ones and
zeros that are crypto they can now be
used to regulate an industry that’s a
little difficult to put into traditional
legal system whereas if we move towards
a more freedom of Association based
model of legal system and human
interaction we can avoid a lot of this
and save a lot of money on legal
fees I’m so glad you brought that up
actually that what you mentioned as your
definition of of a legal engineer I
don’t think that’s my definition of
legal engineering and so I I I I
think again to to return to the question
I in order to get legitimation it seems
like not only do we need to establish
several other Concepts in the public
mind we also need to to kind of
internally uh Tamp down what a legal
engineer is like like for me a legal
engineer is somebody who who who who
takes law
uh and combines it with code so we have
these these two things that seem GE
metric at times uh but uh the the legal
Engineers
who like people I know who are going
under uh under the banner are are making
like Innovative things that aren’t
always about stting regulation uh a lot
of times they actually do
improve manner of Association and and
how people come together and and it’s
really beautiful to have no I I want to
say that like one of the things that I’m
excited about is like you know you look
at the SEC and sure they they do some
silly stuff but they also produce things
like xprl requirements right they have
documents standards that they want and
and I think that you know if we’re going
to do a job that people are excited
about we need to make things easier for
for what’s built now and I I don’t think
that’s an incredibly heavy lift like
these standards are there we should use
the technology that we have to make it
easier for people to communicate with
the SEC I don’t want to get into a you
know match with the with these guys I I
don’t think that’s the point I think the
point is that there are standards we can
use legal engineering to make people’s
lives easier and if we do that then you
know if it’s convenient people will use
it and they’ll appreciate it uh you know
I don’t think it has to be about you
know sorting regulation at all I think
it’s about
conveniency access to regulation and and
understanding you know I met with
endowment you know a couple months ago
and that was awesome right they they
created a donor advis fund which was a
tax advantage structure and they made it
easy to use and I understood it and I
could get money with it and and I think
regular people really appreciate that so
in terms of getting back to the question
of how do we make this something that is
globally appreciated we need to work
with the globe and come up with some you
know and look at the standards that are
already in place and convenience access
to them
we might
on thank you and and I do want to give
credit uh like shout out to let does
have an accreditation program for legal
Engineers uh so you know we the highest
level answer I think for the question
just just directly attack it is that
it’s it’s a marketing issue like most
thing it’s communication there it’s not
like you know the concept hasn’t been
out there for a while or at least we
haven’t we’ve been talking about it for
a while and uh people have been gring
out they’ve been building theyve build
some fantastic stuff out there the focus
dis portional in the blockchain space
but like legal engineering legal Tech is
not at
all Silo to that and so I I would just
say
like it’s it it really is just a matter
of of socialization and how hardcore you
want to you want to get with
um what a legal engineer can
do again now that I’m thinking about it
the basic legal Tech that exists in
legal spaces could be made by legal
Engineers if they want to make the
definition just somebody who knows how
to program and and aims uh their their
building at at the legal space but if we
want to say they really have the
integrated law into their code which is
is what we see primarily uh legal
engineer building is doing in the
blockchain space blockchain enabling
that more probably than any other
technology uh then we’ve we’ve got some
serious
conclusion
okay very good stuff um I’ll open the
floor to you if you have any final
remarks that you’d like to make I I
think these folks went twice so I want
to extend the same courtesy to
you yeah uh in the context of I heard
the word standard mentioned quite a bit
and we’re also talking about internet
technology those type of things I just
find it very beautiful how the internet
doesn’t have many laws it just operates
on standards and freedom Association and
seems to be one of the most
well-functioning institutions and
jurisdictions in the world and I wonder
if we can learn from that as
well excellent
stuff I think that uh what I heard today
this is just my
takeaway we uh are the catalysts for
things that can’t be
ignored when um some of the austrians
discussed how we might fix the FED what
they talked about was it’s going to have
to be some new fangled thing that they
can’t ignore and they can’t shut down
and I think that that’s what legal
engineering really has as a competitive
advantage and that kind of brings me to
the next prompt that I’d like to uh
start with next conversations with every
body unless anybody else has any other
comments they’d like to make about that
prompt I I would like to make a comment
I
think thank you um I think we can’t
ignore the fact that real engineers in
the real world build things that
actually work right that they are solid
reliable trustworthy um so that needs to
be a part of legal engineering as well
um which is more important than than
just coding right because if we embed
dysfunctional systems in uh the the the
code and that they get automated and you
can’t shut them down we’re not better
off uh we need to First think about it
and how they will will work together and
design them as such a way that that
actually function well thank you yeah I
just wanted to rip off of that as well
as what what Alec said about how the
internet works quite well because it’s
freedom of Association that’s HTML
that’s running on mainly protocol and
and the precursor of that is spml and uh
Charles Goldfarb is who I consider the
first full-on inventor legal engineer
around uh and so he took a legal concept
which is redlining contracts and then
invented markup language so he created a
way to parse documents at a rular level
uh by by using Legal Information
Technology really and so uh there is a
learning experience for us though
because as a lawyer he was very much
about dotting his eyes and Crossing his
tees and so the compiler for sgml is
really uptight if it wasn’t perfect then
it would break which is what solid like
as well as a compiler uh definitely
makes sense of a solidity uh but anyway
what what Tim burn Lee did with HDML big
thing is he just went yeah we can
compile it even if it’s a little messy
as a scientist he just you know wanted
to um move forward at the speed of
business and so I think legal Engineers
we need to reconcile those too yeah some
of the best tech we’ve made is is
protocol that’s just permissionless Pro
protocols uh that help with trustless
environments and and that type of thing
uh but we do um lawyers tend to want
zero risk which is an absurdity so uh if
we allow for um um imperfections and
then we’re good to go and I to Me Maybe
the very very first Eng engineer appear
that from that that he took that leg
concept of the minimist because he was a
litigator and then applied that to math
and math was not wanting to have any um
ad equality that’s what he so yeah it’s
almost equal there’s a little bit that
we’re cutting off but that’s fine and
then that was what devolved calculus
little bit off topic there
but I always appreciate hearing about
legal engineering from you Kyle
um I guess um I’m GNA get one last ask
for anybody that wants to raise their
hand got one taker thank
you uh when I hear the words code
compiling coding protocol brings me back
to the Middle Ages because law
engineering was done by monks that
time and uh systematically uh they reach
out
for things that were happening in in the
communities and the societies and the
civilizations you know they compile
rules and writing
code developing software is like being a
senator or a congressman or a
congresswoman is writing laws so we’re
not talking about anything new right now
we’re just using new new instrument new
tools now there is a big lag because we
have an excess of laws whether it’s in
sports whether it’s in media whether
it’s in the Internet Internet it’s
abundant of laws you know you just look
at the little little fine print this is
thousands and thousands and thousands of
words and and you got to predal law you
got hundreds and hundreds of kilograms
of paper so it’s time to bring it up to
the AI to take care of that because
we’re wasting our time we’re wasting our
our our creativity on doing something
that’s been doing for at least 2,000
years thank you very
much whatever
thank you all for
participating I have a really juicy prom
for you that I think that you’ll all
enjoy given the rise of network States
like um like Balia prospera and uh all
the other ones that of note uh it’s
really notable to see how many
people bring together their unique skill
sets to be able to support the
development of these things my second
prompt is how can we facilitate free
movement of legal engineers and
professionals to build more freedoms
into our governance systems not just
building new network States but updating
our current systems that we have how can
we facilitate
that yes how can we facilitate free
movement of legal engineers and
professionals to build more freedom into
our governance
systems if uh I could get the F Minute
Timer started again we’ll all break up
and uh we’ll start our conver ation up
again May encourage different group
different groups different groups and uh
mix around too um there’s a lot of
Fascinating People here um and a lot of
good good perspectives to share
they
apples
spe
bu
like
spe
bar
that’s
e
e
e
e e
I I made it clear that I have a bias
that I would think that you would need
more jurisdictions in order to affect
the base level because you need to
affect the statute in order to have real
maneuverability but then Ramona actually
brought up the example of many private
organizations um that have moved the
needle starting with the example of
private placements and how that industry
standard later was interoperable with
other jurisdictions and provided more
flexibility and also just the you know
the numerous type of private
organizations like uniform law
commission uh the the conference for uh
for Bank uh uh uh banking uh supervisors
and other private organizations they
have moved the needle forward so
thinking perhaps legal Engineers can
come up with a similar solution and a
guild around that but then the core
problem is each of these organizations
they have a use case a killer app so to
speak that makes them really prolific so
I think one of the objectives of legal
Engineers is to come up what that use
case is and inform their organization
around cor Mission and then maybe have
tertiary type um activities after
that uh so I’m going to show for Lexile
a little bit here U also uh got it’s
it’s good to mention there’s a Bitcoin
round going on right now so you want to
support uh laws of public good as well
as legal engineering uh go to getcoin
and and find leyle and and bonate a
dollar uh but anyway so lexow we’re a
guild of legal Engineers but we’re an
international Guild and so I believe is
part of this is that uh right now
especially law um every Bar Association
in every state it’s very uh state byst
state and and I understand why but that
does cause friction in in Freedom of
movement so lawyers it is very difficult
for a lawyer to go to a different
jurisdiction and and be able to practice
so uh lexal might be able to with its as
it builds up its certification process
uh provide an international standard for
legal engineers at least so the legal
Engineers it’s a little bit easier to
practice and and perhaps it’s just the
network states that take this up um uh
but that’s a great starting point so now
I’m going to pass uh the mic Jason where
we spoke quite a bit about decentralized
identity which is you know the Practical
piping way to get it
done well that was just it um I think
that when you’re moving Juris
jurisdiction even when you’re changing
like you know geographic location you
have to show your passport
um so it all comes down to like how do
we rally behind uh verification of
identity uh what does that mean and can
we do that in a way that sort of
preserves the those to the space in a
privacy preserving manner to the extent
possible and could we be the Pioneers as
Network States as you know um special
economic zones that sort of the next
Frontier of hubs could we rally behind
some sort of standard and attestation
model where we can verify um not only
just the the uh safety of the individual
but also maybe the skill set uh that
they’re bringing to the table and could
we rally together to kind of uh provide
the loose framework uh on which this
type of free movement based and optin uh
base movement can be um
scaled I think you’re you’re go ahead
and do the
attestation all right yeah so
attestation that’s a um it’s what a lot
of developers are this this next wave of
of tooling is focused on quite a bit uh
so eum attestation service is one e and
then hypers is another one in the
ethereum ecosystem it’s the idea that we
can figure out the credibility of of um
whatever is being attested to uh by by
crowdsourcing have the overall Community
attest so uh the way etherum attestation
service works is that it’s um different
kinds of test stations U anyone can
create a scheme for that kind of
attestation and then and then just
people use that to um
um and basically an nft that says yes
this this person did this job or or what
whatever is being in tested to that’s
why a test is such a great concept
because it is a quite
versatile um yes hope that gives some
context but what that test is
done and it also places the strength of
sort of the the blockchain in that you
know we can say hey this this is an
oracle this is a source of Truth this
event was you know actually happened and
is is codified and people can look to
that and so it becomes a very uh strong
almost like proof of history or proof of
anything really that we could use around
these Concepts and now I’m going to pass
it on thank
you um
so thinking about the things that we
already have right freedom of movement
already exists and then associations and
private organiz gations and lawyer and
Industry associations already exist uh
these are analog features right
um at the level of the legal Engineers
once uh we have that killer app which
may be digital identity and like which
may be solving some of these very
painful problems um how about organizing
infiltrating all this real life industry
associations traditional organizations
and then because lawyers are in there
too obviously and then how about
teaching them about this new technology
this new way of doing things because
frankly I’ve seen a lot of focus and
interest um uh from like the American
Bar Association on privacy for example
I’m not aware that a lot of the crypto
industry is pushing aligning efforts and
joining efforts with the people who care
about privacy from the traditional world
and that’s a a miss right that’s a Miss
there it’s a missed opportunity um so so
again um um having that approach and
seeing what we can do but obviously
having the standard having events and
then having online events guys because
there’s only so much traveling that
people can do and we also need to be
sustainable but we can we can have
online events and then reach more people
like that um and then um the word uh the
word spreads um and then we move
forward I’d like to add one more thing
to that I think that education is super
important in is and especially when it
comes to these fields and these Concepts
and one of the biggest thing is moving
past the friction of the old world into
the new so along with the education we
also have to add in incentivization like
what are the actual zones doing to
educate people about these new options
and are they as part of their onboarding
part of their welcoming process really
uh you know sort of being encouraging
this pioneering spirit that is sort of
embodied by events like this this and
can we come up with incentivization
models to get the old world into the new
thank you Mason thank you everyone
please big round of applause to
everyone really really cool experience
thank you Mason again it was a very
great uh
format next up I would like to introduce
you to to Dr Wolf call uh he’s a lawyer
Economist and professor of law at the
University of St Thomas and also one of
the co-founders of the open source
standard Association so lot of respects
uh very nice to see you to see you and
to host you here Dr Wolf a pleasure the
stage is yours
can you hear
us please big round of applause to Dr
[Applause]
Wolf can you hear
us okay we cannot hear you please take
difficulties give us a second
please yeah you tell me when when you
want me to start
presenting we’re almost there
one one can you hear
us yeah there we go the stage is
yours hello everyone I cannot see you
but I hope you can see me and can see
the presentation I’m excited to be here
thank you to Christian and Antonio and
all your team members for help
coordinate this um there’s a lot going
on in the industry and I’m so excited
that Pros has something to offer here
and is hosting events in this
context so let me walk through a little
bit of where I want to go with this
presentation today and Antonio just to
be clear I have like 30 minutes or so
and then questions
we have 45 minutes excellent excellent
okay great so let
me talk about what I want to present
here
so most important to me is Outlook which
is where can we take prosper and where
can
prosper benefit from the the trends that
I’m that I’ll be talking about here yeah
so uh
I put it at the end because I want to
present all the problems first H and the
potential solutions that we have but one
thing where prospera really has the
ability in my humble
opinion to position itself and add
something extremely valuable to the dowo
community is in the Dow rappa context so
I’ll talk a lot a little bit about um
all the problems all the infrastructure
uh solutions that are being built and
some of are not being being built yet um
so I’ll talk a little bit about Trends
overall but what the reason why I I’m
very excited about presenting today and
working with
Prosper H and Christian and and and his
team is that we can create alternative
solutions that are
currently lacking in the dowo industry
worldwide in a prospera sandbox I would
call it um and so I I want to leave some
questions for that at the end and
present where I believe uh Prosper can
add the most value uh let me give you a
little bit of background I just
presented some of these issues in
Switzerland and I consider Switzerland
to be perhaps the leading dowo
jurisdiction right right now with a
significantly suboptimal Dow legal
rapper model yeah and I told the Swiss I
believe that uh and and you know all the
top Swiss people were there and they
wanted to know what to do and I said to
them look you have a model but there are
other states that are at a lower tax Bas
and um that are that are looking and
working right so this is these are all
examples of jurisdictional competition
to attract down industry uh um er
participants to to the given
jurisdiction and I do believe if we can
work with a Prospero legal
council in helping to tackle some of
this these problem that I will
illustrate
we will have a very significant player
with prosper in the Dow industry okay so
this is just my background so I’ll talk
a little bit about the addressable
market and the growth therein I’ll talk
about some of the open issues that uh
that haven’t been solved in the in the
dowo ecosystem and in the Dow industry
around the world um I just finished a uh
International Paper that examines every
single jurisdiction in the in the world
that deals with Dow uh legal rapper
offerings or offers to our legal rappers
and I can tell you from this research
that these problems haven’t been
attacked right they haven’t been
addressed as a huge gaping hole for the
industry in the in the industry and that
creates enormous opportunities including
for prosper yeah so I’ll talk a little
bit about the open issues I do want to
talk about my
prior um as well because there
are some priors that I have in this that
that some people may disagree with I I
believe I can defend my prior uh quite
adequately but um it’s important that
everybody understands that where I’m
coming from in presenting the data and
then so I’ll I’ll present some of the
data of where we’re at that comes out of
uh the the Prius and my my my team’s
analysis so I have a team of 20 research
assistants who put this data together
over nine months almost 10 months and so
um there’s a lot to to digest here okay
um if there no questions um happy to
launch in are there any questions at
this
point okay great
so before I go in I think it’s really
important to
understand what Dows are and what
they’re
not
and so so in order to understand where
to take the Dow markets and the the
offerings and the infrastructure
products that we need to build for D
it’s important to understand that Dows
are not just
another legal instrument yeah Dows are
much more they’re also not just a
fundraising tool right that Dows can be
in my humble estimation a a way to
synthesize transcend if you want the
existing Notions of how we build Society
in capitalistic structures and
socialistic structures
yeah why am I saying this so most of us
were raised in either one of those two
systems and or hybrids thereof right I
was raised in a hybrid of a capitalistic
structure structure in Europe with
social market capitalism that’s how I
was raised um and so this when you go
through school you come out of this
these Notions oh you know the Russians
they they did Communism and socialism
and Etc and um we in the west we we have
other ways of dealing with these issues
but our systems aren’t perfect either
right I mean everybody knows uh the
externalities the the banking problems
all of the things that that capitalistic
systems uh create including you know 10
cities when the system collapses yeah so
we could go much deeper this is not for
this conversation but one thing to
that’s really important in my humble
estimation is that we understand that
Dows have the potential to solve these
these age-old you know 200 years of uh
economic structure evolution in my
humble opinion there is a potential for
Dow if we build the correct
infrastructure to solve uh some of those
those age-old problems and transcend
those systems so why am I saying that
well Dows really should be about
peer-to-peer connectivity to work around
causes that people identify with and to
work with their peers with if you want
kindred spirits and
and but at the same time if
we set up the correct in my humble
opinion correct Dow
governance you would be working for
yourself while while at the same time
working for your community and it you
would be in charge of when and how you
engage and the algorithm that runs the
community that runs the Dow would
coordinate most of this and create the
the incentive environment that is needed
to make this a sustainable Community
yeah and so if we believe that that’s
the the right design then everything we
talk about in terms of infrastructure
building and legal rappers and
prosperous role can be if you want
molded by those by that logic right so
if if I come to you and I say hey
prospera I want you to create a legal
rapper for a fundraising Dow it’s a
completely different ball game yeah and
there are a lot of people who think that
that’s what Dows are about right if you
ask late people in the crypto industry
they think Dows are about fundraising
tools right to make a quick Buck for a
few people um and that’s not what this
is about so the the longterm viability
of house comes out of this Baseline
logic of what they are about and they’re
about peer-to-peer connectivity to work
to allow people to work in alternative
systems that are not top down creative
yeah and I believe that Society Trends
feed into that I don’t want to go into
all of it it’s too much for this
presentation
it’s almost like Dows came at the right
time with the right societal structure
and openings that come out of that so
that’s that’s why I what I believe Dows
can be in the long run and if we agree
with that we need to we need to think
about legal solutions for da including
with via Prosper legal council that
serve those needs yeah and so I’ll talk
about this at the end of this
presentation just briefly and the the
key for this is is a congruence between
the internal governance of dows and the
external legal rapper the external legal
rapper obviously being the Prosper legal
council offering that I I’m I intend to
Lobby heavily heavily this year
including with proposals on how to get
these structures right um but it’s the
congruence right so if we we figure out
Dow governance by the way nobody has
figured this out right this is like we
have now what 32 billion uh uh uh assets
under management in the Dow industry
according to some estimates uh deep Dow
data that is um the overwhelming
majority I would say
99.9% of all those structures have no
sliver of understanding what long-term
sustainable governance actually means
for for their systems yeah and that’s
why we see a lot of attrition that’s why
people run away from Dows and that’s why
the industry hasn’t really taken off
because it’s the internal governance uh
that hasn’t been solved once we solve
that and I believe we can solve it right
I so I wrote a book about this and and
I’m not saying my solution is the only
correct Solution please don’t get me
wrong here but I think there will be
maybe two or three solutions on Dow
governance where where the industry will
get behind it because what’s happening
right now everybody invents their own
governance and token designs that that
is an absolute cat catastrophe for the
industry yeah so what we’ll see over
time evolve is correct quote unquote
correct uh Dow governance and there will
be a consolidation into one maybe two or
maybe two maybe three models yeah so
once we have that and we’re nowhere
we’re nowhere near that right now right
on but once that happens in the next two
to five years we will see that the need
for external governance tools that
correspond and create congruence between
the internal governance logic in a dow
and the external legal raer Dow that
that congruence will become the
dominating logic and I can tell you
right now this the the researchers
around the world in this field including
in Europe they’re waking up they start
understanding that this is true yeah and
so now of course getting this to the
masses into the project is a whole
another issue right but what we need to
do is once the governance evolves in
internal governance structures and the
industry Gets behind it
now we have to find a way to create a
legal rapper that creates congruence
between the external legal rules that I
hope Prospero will offer and the
internal governance logic yeah okay so
that that’s just sorry it’s a long
winded 10 minute introduction to what
I’m trying to say here yeah um okay so
let me let me start out with the market
why why should we care about this
including Prosper right well we should
care because if we get it right and we
create the congruence between internal
uh governance and external governance we
have a huge component of Market
participation that we can tap into this
is data that is already right now I’m
sorry to say outdated the numbers are
actually uh quite significantly higher
than what you’re seeing right so this is
only the smart contract market right so
uh the addressable Market here would be
just for smart contracts now Dows are
smart contracts they’re bundles of smart
contracts yeah I hope we can age on that
so how do you create the governance
logic between these bundles of smart
contracts to create the quot quote
correct long-term sustainable internal
governance that allows the Dow to
function long-term sustainably right
that’s what we’re talking about so if we
get that right the the participation and
the growth of the market just in on the
smart contract side is absolutely
mindboggling right so if you’re looking
at uh 1.75 billion in 2022 now those
were lower numbers if if we extrapolate
from there and smart contract market
growth and not just uh smart contract
market growth but also the the
accumulation the arrogation of smart
contracts into Dow structures yeah and
the defi Market is also on top of that
we’re looking at almost a$1 billion
industry in the next uh you know 10 10
10 10 15 years yeah and so it’s very
important that we understand that you
can directly participate in that as
prospera if you offer the correct legal
solution that create the congruence
between the internal governance and the
external tools right now there’s we’re
nowhere near right so if you’re thinking
at Prosper oh we’re just going to do a
new Association model which some people
at Prospero want to do that’s not enough
that the Swiss have already done that
and you know they’re more established
and they established in EUR Europe etc
etc what is needed to capture this
Market is a an
algorithmic
recognition legal recognition in Prosper
algorithmic legal recognition that
creates congruence between the internal
governance and the external governance
yeah I would love to have a conversation
with the legal council at Prosper about
this very issue to help you capture this
Market segment yeah okay so
Dows as I said Dows are a um a subset of
smart contracts and Dows are legal
bundles but Dow sorry legal bundles of
smart contracts right so like combined
smart contract
logic but Dows can be so much more yeah
so if you think about what constructs
can you run in in defy and it smart
contract systems of the future fut if
you get Dows right and we we’re nowhere
near getting Dows right right now I’m
afraid yeah you can capture so much more
Dows literally will create their own
markets literally will reinvent money
literally will create systems in which
people find Alternatives way alternative
ways to make a living yeah so this is
the XE Infinity example for instance
right so x infinity for those who don’t
know um was a game on
ethereum where people in Southeast Asia
Vietnam etc etc they literally quit
their jobs to play the game to make
money make ethereum and make a living
out of it yeah so it failed it shut down
it was abused people in America started
making money on top of it and you know
the system collapsed because we didn’t
have governance system wasn’t set up
properly right but what it shows us is
that people want to use these structures
to make an alternative living people
want be independent of centralized
structures people want to make
alternative livings if they can’t find a
job yeah and all you need is an internet
connection and your ability to engage
with it and that’s exactly the market
segment that Dows will in the long
longterm tab into yeah and
um okay so why don’t we have this well
we don’t have it because Dows are hard
it’s extremely difficult to get Dows
right I’ve been doing this for 12 years
written books about it over 100 articles
and I can tell you I’ve I’ve worked in
this in the in the real world for over
six years now trying to implement these
communities it’s very very hard
partially because we don’t have the
right governance structures yeah um
having said that there’s good news there
there’s there’s been funding to fund uh
dii uh uh teams that I’m part of that
are now in the early stages finding the
correct Solutions it’s very encouraging
right so but before we go there let’s
talk about some of the problems why are
Dows so hard and why don’t we have
proper secur proper infrastructure for
Dows that to to allow us to participate
in these in this potential grows that I
Illustrated earlier yeah
so the overwhelming majority is
governance and incentive failures right
the people join these
structures and the structures reinvent
wheel on governance they don’t know what
they’re doing quite frankly they some of
them just jump in because they want to
raise quick money some of them are very
enthusiastic about the underlying causes
but they don’t understand what long-term
sustainable governance means to get
these systems up and running in a
sustainable way you and so that is a
huge problem that if we don’t address it
in the market and find solutions that
are sustainable with infrastructure
building this this Market cannot take
off and obviously prosper and and others
cannot participate in the in the value
creation that comes out of this Market
yeah um so what are those governance
failures the again if you if you’re
using something like snapshot where it’s
one person one vote or you’re selling
governance tokens a lot of people in
this room that I’m I may be talking to
you may think that that is correct and
that because that’s what the industry
does right now and people are making
money with it yes you can do that it’s
fine but it’s not creating a long-term
sustainable model so I’m working on many
deals right now where we’re moving
completely in a New Direction because as
we all know most of these projects fail
and are no nowhere visible after two you
know five five years or so right so at
some point the industry has to grow up
and we need to we need to deal with
those failures right so snapshot rate in
incremental uh step not a long-term
solution yeah and so not it’s but it’s
not just government it’s also
foundational flaws right so setting up
THS um engagement uh attrition all these
things are tied to governance failures
right the same with poor engagement from
the community why do you have attrition
well because you didn’t get the
incentive design right yeah if people
are not seeing an immediate um endorphin
release in a game theoretical design
that a lot of people are not lot of
projects in the Dow space are not
offering you will get poor engagement
yeah so I’ve done this in many Dows
again we didn’t have the infrastructure
pieces in place we didn’t have the
notification systems in place we you
know web 3 is clunky people compare web
3 systems with web two
systems you can’t if you don’t have the
Baseline products correct these system
will systems typically fail over time
yeah next thing is we have bad industry
Players let’s be honest Rock PS and
keyman risk are a huge problem yeah and
which goes back to the level of
decentralization so if you design a
system where two you know one or two you
know Committee of 10 hold the keys to a
to a treasury wallet for a dow and uh
and they Ru pull because they change or
they have the ability to change the code
and they rug pull what do you think is
going to to happen are people going to
tr trust and want to engage with this
and put value into it and money no they
won’t right
so and we haven’t fixed that
sufficiently it got better I have to say
it’s not we’re not not in 2017 but
there’s still huge problems on that end
yeah and then security failures uh and
quite frankly even if we build the
infrastructure there will be bugs that
will be exp exploited um because there’s
a whole industry around this yeah and um
that’s why it’s so important that we get
the industry behind those you know one
two maybe three governance models have
them tested have them implemented in
inow communities and create this
security that everybody knows these
algorithms in these systems have been
tested there are no more Securities
failures and we can trust it because you
can only build markets if you create
certainty of outcomes both legally this
is by the way this is for prosper very
important um and technologically yeah so
if you don’t create certainty of
outcomes Market participants won’t trust
and will not engage right now let me let
me go back we still see these grow
numbers despite all the problems that
that I’m illustrating here yeah um next
item please interrupt me anytime with
questions um as as
desirable um decentralization right so
if is is a huge problem if you running a
d and you’re using snapshot or whatever
system that has one person one world
with governance tokens that you sell um
the you’re
inevitably I’m sorry to say undermining
any decentralization efforts you there
ways to mitigate this but in the long
run people won’t trust it because you
have you know a committee or in some
cases just one person basically running
everything and everybody needs to um in
those in many of those systems and I
have data that
second many of those systems you have to
trust that this benevolent dictator does
the right thing but you don’t you have
no guarantees right so that goes back to
uncertainty right so there security
problems Rock PS po engagement flaw
decentralization all of the this leads
to uncertainty people don’t like
uncertainty in markets you can’t create
markets with uncertainty you need to
create the right infrastructure and
legal rules it’s just important for for
pro Prosper to spit in only if you have
that will markets actually proliferate
right okay okay um now let me move on to
my PRI so this is my book um that I
wrote
2020 and I’m the I’m really motivated
by getting setting up governance systems
that are attack resistance right so
there’s really no point to to talk about
this if somebody can attack your stone
yeah and so there many attack factors so
tyranny of the majority sock puppet
attack level of decentralization Arrow
and possibility Theory dos attacks among
so many others I have one paper out
there we’re talking about 18 different
attack factors right so it’s very
important to understand that if you
don’t create governance systems that
deal with these attack vectors long term
and are able to to to create Sustainable
Solutions in my humble opinion you
shouldn’t even stop right so I got to
this to this game 12 years ago
with this notion of we need to fix these
problems to help the market uh
proliferate and the book explains the
key infrastructure components of how you
get governance right as a key INF
infrastructure component to allow the
DOW market to proliferate yeah and so
this is I want to say this up front
these this is my prior right I am I
believe that the the existing Dow uh DOW
market where we have 32
uh billion dollars uh in a assets on a
management
total is not sustainable unless you fix
these problems yeah now you might say
well why why does it exist up to this
point well it exists because there’s so
much momentum in the market and people
are so desperate for something to
something to work with because of all
the problems that centralized systems
create and all the problems that that we
build on top of the with Cal ized logic
in decentralized systems that we despite
all the problems we still got to this
this point of course you know the
Bitcoin proliferation also helps yeah so
it drives a lot of this yeah um but
imagine what we can do if we fix these
problems long term yeah uh quite amazing
so here’s a here’s a few here a few
explanations of what are these problems
we don’t have to really go into it the
book explains that 350 Pages I’m not
expecting anyone to read all of it but
you have to fix these problems in
incentive designs for Dallas if you
don’t you in my humble opinion the
market will always set back and will not
proliferate to where it can be and the
value that that can be created if you
fix these problems is is really
significant so let me say a few things
about my
data as I said um so the data is
analyzing the current market of DS um
and looks at what are the problems and
where where do we need to pay particular
attention in infrastructure building and
fixing problems to let the market
proliferate yeah so 20 20 research
assistance uh almost 10 months and here
are the Baseline Logics that we looked
at right so we have decentralization the
level of decentralization we can talk
you so we can spend a whole day talking
about what that means right we don’t
have the time I just want to give you a
baseline presentation
here um attack resistance again super
important
how attack resistance are these existing
Dows what have they put in place to
facilitate attack resistance and then
governance right governance and
decentralization are very close uh in
The Legend and the logic in the way we
we coded it uh Regulatory Compliance
this is a very big ticket for uh for
prosper in my humble opinion
meaning if we don’t have congruence
between the internal governance of the
Dow and the exter external governance of
a dow how are these existing Dows uh
complying with the
external compliance rules that that
apply to the Dow yeah that’s what this
Regulatory Compliance uh coding logic
tries to
measure um work to earn this is as I
said this is what Dows are about right
Dows are not about fundraising and
allowing some people to make a quake
Buck uh because it’s a new thing new sh
shiny object in the market right they
bows are about work to earn allowing
people to make a living uh similar to XD
Infinity longterm right that’s what this
is about and you can literally build a
whole new Economy based on that yeah
through this if we fix those problems
yeah and then lastly organizational
communication now I could walk you
through all of the logic of how these
work I just taught my book on this uh
this and it took me literally three
months to get through that so I’m not
obviously not getting going to be able
to do this today just suffice it to say
that every single um coding logic is is
rigorous uh application of uh of the
basic theoretical uh foundations and
then implement it into um into the
existing data that we generated for the
Dow industry yeah so let me give you a
quick overview here yeah so this is
every single
individual
industry uh uh in the Dow Dow
ecosystem and the scoring that applied
to those uh to those respective
Industries right and I do believe
there’s some good news here um which
I’ll get to in a second but let me let
me just give you a quick overview so we
have we obviously there’s people who
think that investment Dows are a real
thing right that’s again if it’s an
industry component but it’s not what
Dows are really about long term you can
do it for now you’ll probably get into
trouble with the SEC very quickly if you
do it but there’s a huge component of
this um where people have used DS for
for investment and you know a lot of
them end up in court and or you know you
have to deal with the
SEC uh but that’s where the industry is
right now right it’s all iterative then
they we have art and culture Dows we
have Dow tools um we have defi Dows same
very very close to investment DS right
same same problem same logic really
dominated the industry because people
want to make money in this yeah and
there’s nothing wrong with it if you
have the right governance you don’t
right you just it’s a complete nightmare
right and no serious player will put
real money into the Dow industry because
you don’t have the right infrastructure
right so think about what we can do if
we build the infrastructure right uh
science publishing DS is the next one
Med communication gaming very big uh
work and funding DS political um
political DS infrastructure
DS and data analysis BS now one thing
that I
take good news as far as I’m concerned
is the higher grading that we see in
those nine months of research for the
Dow tools so these are these are
communities that build Dow tool sets who
are aware of the issues that I’m
flagging in my in this paper and have
started building the right tools and
that’s why we see higher uh higher
ranking higher grading here same with
the Des uh decentralized science um
communities right they know what’s
needed they know what’s needed to to to
have the market actually take off by
building the right infrastructure pieces
and that is reflected in our data now um
I know I’m running into time uh issues
here so I’ll I’ll be wrapping up
momentarily let me talk about uh a quick
overview of the the data here right so
all the all the data aggregated if you
look at the scoring on decentralization
it’s abysmal it really is now it’s it’s
much better in the Dow tooling uh
segment here as you can see but it’s
still abysmal right so on average of 4.5
five out of 10 that that was generous
right very generous and why well because
so many people use Snapshot and other
systems that simply cannot give you what
you need long term to make these systems
work and that is reflected in the
decentralization
score uh attack resistance this is the
next big big ticket item again the Dow
industry uh tool sets they’re doing
better because they recognize it and we
gave them higher higher gr grades
because that but the overall majority of
people just come in and don’t care and
now they don’t have to care again 3 85
out of 10 is abysmal right you should
only care about attack resistance but
that’s not what people do because
because it affects you long term right
if you get attacked game theoretical
design attack not these are not bugs in
the in the code right this is game
theoretical attack um so you can run the
system for you know two three years but
as soon as you make real progress
somebody will come in and try to attack
your system guaranteed right as it’s
just how the market works it’s how
people work right so it should all start
with attack resistance and quite frankly
this coding suggests that the industry
is nowhere near ready yeah um governance
uh 4.03 out of 10 Again terrible grades
uh Dow tooling is has better scores we
can defend all of this but governance is
is everything right but governance is
not a bug governance is a key feature is
the key feature that’s why Dows exist
exist yeah and that’s why when I talk
about congruence between internal
governance and external governance that
is
everything to allow Dows to long-term
succeed it drives decentralization it
drives attack resistance it literally is
if you want the umbrella category that
everybody in the Dow industry should
care about well they don’t because they
care about bringing money in right and
they should they if you think about it
you should really care about governments
even more because the more money you
bring in the more
your governance should be correctly
calibrated to protect that money yeah uh
but okay so next category uh Regulatory
Compliance abysmal right worst of all
there’s still this notion in the Dow
industry somehow that the rules in the
jurisdictions in which they work don’t
apply to them because we somehow
magically think that oh it’s all code
right code is Law and we can ignore the
real legal repercussions and I I want to
tell you up front I would never touch a
d ever unless there was a legal rapper
pres present and with all the legal
flaws right now why as soon as money
hits the Dow and gets distributed to D
participants the courts and that’s I
have several papers on this the courts
go in and say oh these are join several
Partnerships everybody is liable
individually joint jointly and severly
right so so um that means if you’re
joining a dow and you don’t have a legal
rapper and you don’t watch out for
Regulatory Compliance in an
international setting you may end up
being being hauled into court and being
presented with this logic of look you
worked in this environment you didn’t
set up an entity by default we’re
considering you a partnership because we
consider your partnership you are
jointly and several severly liable right
so whatever Bill there is that somebody
somebody sued for every single person in
that Dow is liable individually
proportionally for that bill right it’s
a complete disaster now a lot of people
join these STS they don’t realize that
that’s what’s coming yeah but now we
have president in the United States that
is quite quite clear right so you at a
minimum you have to think about a DI
legal rapper with all the
suboptimalities that it creates right
use a foundation use an association use
for for all I care use a dow Wyoming LLC
right but please don’t just go in and
and do your own thing but but through
code assuming everything is Peachy no
it’s not you may get sued and you may
end up losing everything yeah okay so
this is a big ticket for prosper in my
humble opinion where I believe that
prospera can really add something if you
get the congruence issue right but that
getting that
right is tricky and it requires
Consulting and it requires the right
team but once you have it I think you
really have something to offer in this
market and researchers around the world
they all understand this now yeah
whoever fixes this and gets the
congruence between the internal rules
and the external rules right will win
this regulatory compet competition
Market because people are going to go
there long term you now there’s some
other factors but those those the the
the congruence issue that is in my
humble opinion the biggest biggest
ticket
um work to earn again that’s what are
about uh we’re allowing people to make
an alternative living to Moon use you
know moonshine uh side gigs uh in Dows
and then over time belong to three or
four DS that allow you to make a living
and allow you to quit your job right
that doesn’t exist anywhere nowhere near
but in my humble opinion that’s where
this is going right this is where the
DOW market goes and think about what
what that means globally if you even
just get you know 1% maybe 10% over a
time of the global Workforce to work
through Dows ER in communities in which
people literally can can coordinate
their their their earning a
living and it’s Rel reliable and again
it’s I’m not making these things up x
infinity was a great example right where
people put quit their jobs and just did
this to make an alternative living and
it gives them it it sets you free it
allows you to do what you identify with
what you’re good at right this is the
key you can join the Dow with skill
skills that that where you’re good at
that you identify with where you see the
cause and you work with people who are
likeminded and that to me that’s the
future of DS right there that’s that’s
where all of that’s where the entire
model was that’s what it was made for
right okay so I’ll wrap up in a second
organization communication everything
look if you’re running a dow and you use
Discord I’m sorry it’s not going to work
yeah anyone who builds down tool sets
knows the Holy Grail is to have a
communication software built into the
Dow governance logic yeah um look you
can run it through Telegram and and
Discord for a while but at some point
you need to connect it to the core of
what of the governance engagement the
internal governance right communication
is everything in this and it we don’t we
haven’t seen it now lastly I’m sorry if
I’m over time um Christian please
interrupt me anytime I’m wrapping up now
um so the Dow legal rapper Market to me
prospera is predestined to make a
significant uh contribution to that
market and if with your tax structure
which is brilliant uh with the the
existing legal design that you have with
the community that you have if you
conquer the issue of congruence between
internal D Dow governance and illegal
raer governance with the right people in
the right Design algorithmically This is
super important this is a a a a legal
recognition of the algorithmic logic
that creates congruence between internal
go governance and external th governance
right that is the that is the Holy Grail
right if you figure this out in my
humble opinion everybody will gravitate
towards uh Prosper but obviously it will
take time and it will take lobbying
right we would need to get this through
your legal council now I’m personally
have spoken to many folks over the over
the last year or two about this I I
would love to put a proposal in front of
the Prosper legal council um that
combines all of this and allows us to
create a an algorithmic proposal for
congruence which as soon as that is
approved or even a version of this is
approved as a as a a Sandbox of swords
in my humble opinion there will be a big
bang moment where people start realizing
there is something real and we can we
can capture market market segments and
um and allow the industry to proliferate
even more than at already years and with
that I will wrap up I apologize if I’m
over time I’m happy to take any
questions if we have time um if not
please feel free to email me wolfwolf
cal.com um thank you so much for having
me Christian and um happy to take any
questions if they
are thank
you sure
yeah so look I’m biased because I
believe that you have to get the
governance right and if you don’t have
the governance um that there will be
problems long term so I have worked on
one system that I’m very happy about um
that is called the Cal code review down
where we have a community of developers
who are um reviewing code for for other
projects and so this is pure
peer-to-peer voed logic um there are a
few other Dows out there that I believe
have the right intentions without the
the the correct governance V da for
instance my friend Peter diamandes is on
The Advisory board at vad and lot of
respect for the intention so this is
about um creating long-term Health
Solutions for Humanity allow us to age
more gracefully and long term um
great intentions but I’m worried about
their governance yeah and they’re all
raising funds without having the proper
governance tool sets so um yeah so
there’s those two are the two that I can
think of most there’s you know there’s
so many obviously um but yeah so it’s a
combination of governance and and CA um
that that I would point you to if that
makes sense
I I have a little bit muffle right
now yeah yeah
yeah look it depends on your world world
view and
and your prior right I I want to be
honest I don’t believe that centralized
systems are long-term sustainable right
we don’t have to go into a history
lesson but there’s a reason why Rome
broke down why there’s a reason why you
know every single uh centralized system
becomes brittle over time and creates
breaks down and creates new
opportunities right um so I don’t want
to go into anthropology because it’s
it’s not real enough um but if we
believe that the existing systems and I
started out by talking about
capitalistic systems versus socialistic
systems that they haven’t created the
the right synthesis the right compromise
if we look at societal Trends uh such as
you know loneliness uh problems with
mental health etc etc where is all this
coming from right is this is this all
from
the the way we created the inter
not alone right so if we think about
what people want and what people are
suffering under in these existing
systems I do believe that there is a um
an alternative economy that will emerge
out
of the Dow industry if and when we get
the governance systems right
yeah yeah great
question
yeah yeah
okay let me start out by saying every
every attempt to build a dow is
commendable okay I I don’t want to it’s
just unfortunate that many attempts
don’t don’t result in long-term
sustainable outcomes that would Propel
this industry forward right and so
um okay so that’s the first piece the
next piece is the issue of
congruence in my humble experience what
has happened over the last seven years
or so was that every time a dow is set
up with an attempt at
decentralized governance Logic for the
larger Community yeah what you see Happ
is those people who are if the Dow uses
a legal weapon those people who are more
more involved on the side of the legal
rapper they become a powerhub in the Dow
infrastructure right whether that’s a a
council that is created or all these
other things right that that can come
out of this and because just because
people are more on the legal rapper side
and somebody has to be on the legal
rapper side to run the the the the board
to run uh the overall you know the
accounting of things that get people
paid all of these things have to happen
on the legal rapper side right
Unfortunately today and that creates a
point of centralization that
continuously undermines even the most
decentralized design of of Dow internal
governance right so let’s say it really
doesn’t exist right now but let’s say
there is a dow that has a more
decentralized internal government logic
as soon as you bring in the legal rapper
and you run the legal rapper with
certain people that may be involved over
here on the Dow side or not this becomes
all powerful I it’s inevitable I’ve seen
it so many times yeah and all the models
that exist that try to breach to to to
uh coordinate between the internal
governance of the community in the in
the external governance of the Dow legal
rapper every time that
happens any legal construct between the
two always creates a point of
centralization where these people over
here all of a sudden say oh we’re not
going to be liable if the community says
X we’re not putting our heads out we’re
shutting this down right because there’s
liability involved right and you guys
here don’t have liability if it was
correctly legally structured a lot of
times it’s not right these people also
have liability but these people over
here in the dial they have have
liability and what they say is no we’re
going to not accept what you what you
guys over here are saying we’re not
implementing the community wishes
because we’re not putting our heads out
right and so that creates a point of
centralization where these people over
here can’t say yes okay we we know right
um and so they influence what’s going on
over here all the time and it undermines
the long-term sustainability and and
level of decentralization of these
communities and it’s a it’s a huge key
problem if you don’t conquer that to me
is one of the key infrastructure pieces
yeah and prospera should really only if
you want think about fixing that problem
if you fix that problem you win
everybody will come to you I I would
first thing sorry long long long
answer sorry I I I I don’t hear I hear
muffle
I’m I’m so sorry I cannot hear you
guys yeah
yeah exactly because the people are
going to start protecting the assets
right because they their their their
liabilities is on the line and they
always undermine it every single time
it’s just it’s the
problem thanks everyone great questions
we appreciate your time a lot thank you
so much I hope to visit Prosper very
soon in November you’re always welcome
here come anytime you want thank you so
much hope to see everyone thank you for
having
me take
care so everyone moving on with your
program uh right now we’re going to have
a small coffee break 15 minutes but just
before Victoria wants to share a couple
announcements with
you round of applause
please um hi everyone uh welcome again
uh just quick uh housekeeping uh I don’t
know if everyone knows where the toilets
are but if you’re looking to go to the
loop uh all you have to do is go outside
to the left and then you enter the beach
club just on the right and you have the
toilet just on your left against you out
into Club to the left and then you’ll
see them just there if you have any
questions or you can find your way just
find one of us and we can uh show you
the way the other thing that’s quite
important as you know tomorrow we’re
going to have a few activities before
the pitches which is up to you to attend
to each one of the ones that you want
however the way that we’re coordinating
is please do go into if you see there we
have a bunch of QR codes for the
different activities so we have the beta
building which we’re going to be
providing transport for we have the
sloth and monkey tour as well as this
snorkling so you can join the telegram
account and then we can make sure that
we have account at you for we can
organize transportation for the better
building and anything that requires uh
coordination that’ll be great and if you
could do that before 4M that’s also
fantastic so we can you know be able to
organize this um make sure that we have
space for everyone right and I think
that’s it for m so if you want to break
go for a break
go have fun and we’ll see you in a
little
bit e
and
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hello everyone can you hear
me we’re going to restart uh our
programming so please take a seat take a
ban back make yourself
comfortable because right now I want to
introduce you you to Blan Mahia who’s
going to be leading a panel of experts
uh Blan is a partner at the buet
associados and also the public relations
officer at the Honduras young
arbitrators uh also we’re going to have
Jesse Hudson who’s the chief legal
architect molecule and we’re going to
have our friend uh long time Italian BRS
who’s an expert in that Protection Law
and compliance so please Round of
Applause
do we have blanket physically
here it’s
online give us a second please
sorry for the delay just give us a few
more minutes we’re entering the meeting
there we
go can you hear us
guys can you hear us one two three
are hey bla give us a second
please can you
speak okay we’re trouble shooting the
sound right now I assume you can hear
me
okay hey burs nice seeing you
here give us a second please
can you please
talk testing
testing Can you hear
us can he can hear we’re talking you
hear us we can hear you now
all right welcome welcome blank the
floor is
yours
welcome give us a second please we’re
still we’re still troubleshooting
Tech the echo is about 10 seconds five
seconds can you give us a second please
we’re we’re still
troubleshooting anyone has his YouTube
on in the back
Mine mine’s on it’s just little the
countdown we’re we’re not actually on
the
screen right
now nobody knows we’re testing
yeah are you sure hey hey can you we are
I guess everybody’s having YouTube
stream is just
this I see us I I definit see
UPS up the
back hey can you hear
us yeah oh well floor is yours we Sol
the the issues thank you
what’s thech confence Tech
issues you can
start can you hear us the floor is
C let’s get started l
just
yeah well sorry for that and hello
everybody it’s a lovely day out here in
Bron I’m very happy to be here thank you
so muchal and the people have
invitation will
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commemorating the location this week so
happy property day everybody I’m joined
today by our experts Burns and and I
would like to start by having them share
with us uh a little on their
professional background so Jesse would
like to
begin sure thank you so much and hi
everybody although I have slippers on at
the very least I the chief legal
architect of molecule and previously to
that it’s an anthropologist and
Adventure capitalist so I’ve helped to
design and develop vadal bods bio XYZ
and the ipn and IP tokenization system
for tokenizing
IP
e
e
e
e e
trust uh and then it works it’s
dependent on our trust in the system and
this is how governments work to to a
large degree this is how Society Works
overall and the trustless system is a
bit of an upgrad to that a trustless
system does not require an centralized
Authority it doesn’t produce Central
single points of failure it can
potentially designed very much more
accessible
transparent uh the liability and arising
legal costs out of the liability can be
avoided to a certain degree because the
trust that it’s needed that that you
need to put in in other actors to do
that part is not required in the first
place you don’t even need to trust the
other
participants if I send you
cryptocurrency on your uh on your wallet
or we have a legal a a crypto contract
in that then I don’t need to trust you I
exactly know what the algorithm does I
can look into the algorithm I only need
to trust my understanding of the
algorithm and there I can Outsource the
trust to uh I would compare it
to basically using a pocket calculator
versus asking other people how to
calculate a calculation but it it also
works between multiple agents it’s not
dependent on a single device uh and no
single device has the power to uh to
rule over the system and other than the
pocket calculator you yourself can see
the code and understand the code and
perfectly know what you’re signing up
for uh give inform consent to that then
and aside of that not much can go wrong
and uh the way that cryptocurrencies
like like Bitcoin are designed or many
Trust Systems are designed is only when
a transaction successfully runs through
uh then uh it’s also written down and
then it’s also part of the blockchain
and the and potentially a contract gets
executed so it’s a lot not only a lot
trust dependent but also uh a lot better
in terms of friction that gets produced
it’s a lot more efficient it’s a lot
more
accessible uh potentially ends and
that’s a huge thing it allows for a lot
of sand boxing we can uh Build Together
trustless systems with many key elements
not all of them need to be trustless in
the same way and so on and we don’t need
to rely on governments to come up with
their one siiz fit all solution we might
have the obligation to wrap it into
legal forms that are accepted but the
technique behind it the technology is
powerful to create a ton of sandbox like
systems and burns throughout that
explanation I think think you’ve talked
or touched on a little bit on blockchain
but do to could you explain it to us a
little more in depth and can you also
tell us how the chain is being applied
today well the blockchain is the
technology that come came with Bitcoin
uh and it is one example of a a
trustless system or not trust depending
system uh it runs on nodes and
decentralized so and this allows for
trustless environments a blockchain is
something like a database but uh
different from a traditional database uh
it’s written uh it’s written down in a
transparent Manner and protocolized uh
and it’s uh and it handles a big number
of Agents writing and yeah writing and
sharing the shared knowledge of the
database uh the big upsid of blockchain
is its cyber security features it’s very
hard to fraud a transaction it’s very
hard to corrupt the system it’s very
hard to sensor if the blockchain is
designed in a censorship resistant way
uh and it uh allows us to trust in the
code itself rather than the system
behind it or yeah the Black Box behind
it so blockchain uh is just one example
of a potentially trustless systems they
are to be noticed perfect ways that you
can use a blockchain technology without
creating a trust system you can have
your own blockchain running on your own
centralized noes the central banks can
run their own cryptocurrency with the
blockchain technology governments or or
uh world is world commments could also
establish themselves uh over such
protocols but we ourselves also can
build the same
technology and uh we should I think and
that enables us a lot of sovereignty in
our own actions and a lot of freedom to
interact with other like-minded people
to
cooperate and blockchain was so to say
the starting shot not of trustless
systems the pocket calculator was kind
of trustless before that but the
blockchain technology enabled this fail
safe nearly fail safe way of sending
something electronically from a Tob and
only if it went through then the the
Bitcoin is actually gone on top of that
became ethereum with smart
contracts uh that can have conditions
conditionals and and other uh and other
interact uh interactions with these uh
transactions on top of that came our
structures that we heard a lot about in
the last talk that basically builds a
whole autonomous organization on basis
of these smart contracts and about and
on basis of this technology
and the one of the younger Children of
the blockchain technology was the nft
the non funable token uh and this is a
very Mighty concept especially for IP
for IP tokenization because with this
technology every token is not like a
coin uh where there is one US dollar
printed on uh on every single coin and
it’s purely quantitative but this is
more like a collector’s coin whether
it’s exactly information on this one
coin and every coin looks different uh
and this makes it so great for IP and
for uh for LIC licensing and for
declaring ownership over something
specific and not something
gener
so yeah that that’s all very interesting
uh burs thank you for sharing uh
especially that last bit on nfts and how
it app applies to and how the technology
applies to an or in the context of
intellectual property and um on the
subject of lik minded people and people
who apply uh this word of Technology
Jesse and molecule how are you applying
truckless systems in
blockchain thanks so much and thanks for
the really aite explanation I learned a
lot just listening about the foundations
ofce systems and
blockchain
and and molecule were building
infrastructure tools for IP to
tokenization and the first tool that we
built we actually built for
vadal and was for vadal to take its
rights to IP from clinical trials that
in
funded development of a drug at the
University of Copenhagen for
longevity and um
say on chain we are the owners of this
right in other words to register that
intellectual property into the web of
value onto blockchain
eony and initially the ipft is just a
signal or an authentication of somebody
holding IP
rights so you have IP rights under this
contract with the university and you’re
minting a token to say look I have these
IP
rights and if I sell this token then I’m
also selling the rights that I’ve
attached to this
token what we did that after finding out
that there’s only
limited stuff you can do with
registering through a token IP rights on
CH you can basically just say hey look I
have these IP rights they’re on chain
that’s cool isn’t that sweet like and
you have an object that a cost based
valuation is worth the amount you paid
for it right the amount you paid for the
research you say I’ve funded $2 million
worth of research M Night the nft so I
have this $2 million
nft but until you have a sale of the
asset that actually isn’t the real
valuation right it’s just like this it’s
just like it’s the cost based value of
the item I paid this much for it
therefore it’s worth this
much uh what the next layer of
tokenization that we developed does
which is IPS is it takes that
non-fungible object and allows you toit
fundable objects from it that represent
IP rights to the underlying IP that is
emerging out of this research project so
the longevity research is being done at
the University of Copenhagen there’s
potentially some really promising new
drugs that are identified that further
research should be done on the
researcher can pull the community and
say hey which angle should we take what
do you think is a good idea do you want
to see us look at this this you know
this this one prescription that we found
people who take Liv longer or another
one and the community can then vote and
so they have this limited governance
power over the underlying intellectual
property that isn’t distributed
ownership of the EIP it’s distributed
Community Network governance power and
so what’s interesting there is it it
borrows from this concept of Ip pooling
and U IP commoning that’s quite common
when Innovation is necessary especially
for example during Co a bunch of drug
companies pulled their patents together
and they said we’re going to make an IP
pool so that we can innovate it faster
we going to share IP within common rules
and in doing so we’re g to uh accelerate
progress and so each one of these
IPS that’s minted these these these
fungible IP tokens that’s minted from an
underlying project to IP nft allows for
the creation of this IP clue and all the
IP that emerges from the research goes
into that pool and that pool is governed
by its members who are the token
holders and so that’s the architecture
that we developed a molecule so far and
mainly for vadal within the context of
vadal because vadal is the tip of the
sphere in terms of biod it’s the first
one it it sets the tone it velop the
structure the most sophisticated it
Advance with the largest buying and all
of these interesting things that have
emerged in part from it right like
Vitalia this this network State
emergence for longevity was I think
catalyzed in large part with the the
Genesis of the
beam and so not only have these two
technological tools been developed in
part for it by molecule but also they’ve
been implemented most by G
so the first
IP the fundable IP govern token over a
pool is called V fast and that’s for
research the V out funded into autophagy
at Newcastle University fast as a you
know as as a reference to fasting in the
auty
process and um that’s the only IP that
exists today and so what we have is this
interesting framework and we have all
these people who are wantan to build
cool and cool you know cool biotech
onchain organizations and do cool
experiments and um the substrate of
technology that we’re using like Burns
described this kind of
new tech stack of trustless Systems
blockchain Technology that enables value
transfer and and what we hope is is well
data protection of the users because
it’s more encrypted it’s using hashes
using zero knowledge proofs it’s
potentially a safer place for really
sensitive scientific research to be done
that involves personally identifying
health information for people uh you
know I would feel more comfortable
participating with my phone speaking
through encrypted means to a survey
platform on on a on a blockchain with
hashes then I would just doing it in a
way that might get hacked in a data
breach like happens all the
time and uh as a result I think that
this basic architecture we’ve built of
Ip nfts and then IPS enabling IP
tokenization in these ways they
distribute IP rights in in kind of a
novel way but also doesn’t reinvent the
wheel it just brings this concept of
iping on
chain uh com combined with the amount of
people that are interested in building
cool startups in this area puts us in
this really interesting position in
SpaceTime um for it cambri an explosion
of new projects to be built and new
tokens to emerge uh and new ways of
managing the underlying IP and then
ultimately when it gets to it the
underlying data that is emerging from
Community participation in these
clinical trials they distributed
way and Jesse is the health secture the
health sector the only place in which
molecule is applying this technology and
mean in regards to your work or are
there other sectors that you help out
with this technology
mainly in science yeah mainly in science
and initially it was biotech right
actually the first project that molecule
ever ever helped to tokenize in Fond in
2019 was a psychedelics
project and um now there I would say
there’s kind of two that are a little
bit outside of Pure Health and that’s um
Valley which focuses on synthetic
biology which could include Health stuff
but also could include you know mushroom
buildings or all kinds of cool
materials um and codal which is kind of
Rel to help it’s also more like
cryogenic freezing so technology hard
tech focused in some
ways so it’s mostly Health stuff it’s
mostly biotee stuff I think that’s the
niche that we want to try to uh be the
best in before generalizing with
technology and you know it encouraging
other uses of it but ultimately it’s
like if you know it’s open source and
anybody could use it people could use it
for whatever they want it’s just that if
it wants to be kind of featured in the
molecule platform part of the molecule
ecosystem it’s going to have to do with
some kind of Health
Science yeah that’s very interesting I I
congratulate you on your work I’m sure
that um the application of this
technology helps out in the ways that uh
you describe more and um I’d also like
to thank you for pointing out the that
the IP regimen in itself is designed to
incentivize Innovation through the
disclosure for example in the case of
patents and things such as patent books
which applies not only to the health
sector in in times of Co like the
example that you put out but also it
happens all the time to incentivize
Innovation and um it does so through the
uh economic incentives that the
protection
uh creat so on the subject of
intellectual property um would you like
to expand a little bit more on the ccept
you as a
lawyer I I I could a little bit but I I
think you’re even better suited for it
Luna because you’re an IP lawyer right
and it’s a specialty within the world of
Law and I actually come to IP from a
different place I actually came to IP
focused on the intellectual property of
indigenous peoples specifically related
to their medicines and according art the
Amazon you may see behind me this piece
it’s called kuk it’s from the shapo kibo
tribe in the Peruan Amazon and and so
for me ip was always a question of
economic development through owning
culture and and solving problems that
can’t otherwise be solved through real
property and so my very basic
explanation of Ip is that it’s half it’s
it’s there’s two kinds of property that
the law boils it all down to real
property and intellectual and tangible
property so you have tangible property
like my headphones that’s that’s real in
the lies of the law and then you have
intangible property like the idea of
these headphones and the design of them
that’s written on a piece of paper
somewhere and stored in the patent
office that’s the intellectual property
and so between these two things the real
and the intangible you have a lot of
overlap because again the only way that
the IP was issued was somebody you wrote
on a piece of paper but a piece of real
property and then submitted it to the
elal property office but the concept is
protected and just like real property
can be protected with you know certain C
certain rights that are attaching to it
like you could own a building and then
lease out parts of it and the lease
holders hold their rights even if the
owner
changes right you know you have fiveyear
tency in the building cells they can’t
kick you out you know you have
in most places in some places no but you
know just like with IP say you have a
sub license to use a drug and the drug
gets sold you still own your sub license
in many cases just because the IP was
sold just because the building was sold
doesn’t mean you lose your tendency
doesn’t when you lose your IP rights and
so the the world of real property and
intellectual property legally do overlap
a lot but there are different laws that
apply to each one set real the other int
and so to to wrap it up on the note that
I started with the the reason that I
look at it her istically like that is
because here with this cultural property
of the shapo people for example their
art that is physically manifested their
songs that you you can hear and their
medicines their plant medicines and the
recipes for treating various diseases
that they they that are tangible
physical things that they produce are
actually intellectual property that they
have
that can be very very
valuable where where the struggle that
they they face often is the protection
of their real property lands and and the
pollution of the lands which are very
difficult legal battles to fight very
long and and expensive and hard whereas
IP can actually be much more artfully
applied to generate real economic value
in the near term especially in a network
economy like we live in today um I think
it’s a very compelling uh concept
intellectual property itself not only
for uh for for us here in in
tokenization but also for example for
these
TRS um in in in for example the
nonprofit the K Foundation who sold me
this piece and whose IP we licensed for
the newest Dow in the molecule ecosystem
called side out focused on
psychedelics is um that that IP is
licensed from this
organization that um has has started to
introduce this concept of Ip in the
tribe in the sh tribe right which is one
of the largest tribes in Amazon 35,000
people quite politically
Advanced um and he said it’s blowing
people’s minds that that that wow like
are you telling me I can’t I can’t just
sell this piece this this art piece this
is one of the ones that I bought from
them one time and sell the physical but
I can actually sell it a thousand times
or a million times and every time I sell
it I’m selling the IP of it and that’s
generating royalties and revenue it it
it’s really blowing minds and so I’d
encourage people to look at IP is
actually kind of a newer area of Law and
especially if you look at it from the
long teleological evolution of the law
from first principles in these almost
like isolated sovereign state of Vibes
or you know like Network State
experiments that can learn a law from
native Tri Liv and how they build their
political systems and legal
systems um IP is newer and so it’s an
area more for uh for
Innovation so you know it wasn’t a very
good explanation of what IP is sorry I I
I’d love if you could articulate a bit
on the very basics of
Ip you basically touched on all the
important aspects of intellectual
property in the sense that um well if
you if you like like a definition per se
um intellectual property is the is
intangible property right that’s the
result of human intellect
creativity and by the result of
intellect and creativity I mean that
intellectual property does not protect
abstract ideas uh because you did
mention that you didn’t mention the
concept of Ip uh protecting ideas
to be accurate because ideas as they are
in our mind which are abstract cannot be
protected through any of the
intellectual property uh rights under
the umbrella of intellectual property
what is protected is the manifestation
of our ideas so whatever you can
transform whatever you can transform an
idea into a a tangible as something that
you can perceive with uh your five
senses that may be subject to
intellectual property protection so um I
would I wanted to clarify that because I
think it’s a common mistake to assume
that intellectual property relates to
the protection of ideas themselves and
that is not correct and um intellectual
you you also touched on something that
um the is one of one of the reasons why
I really uh love my job uh intellectual
property is very subtle and it’s
literally everywhere in every aspect of
Our Lives we don’t even uh notice it
sometimes but uh we wake up in the
morning we grab our phone and what we’re
looking at is patents of different kinds
Design
Technology uh we’re looking at copyright
through the app science and stuff like
that or the software that’s involved in
the cell phone itself and that is just
one of the things uh that we touch on
during the daily aspects of Our Lives
then we go for example to the shower and
we grab a shampoo that’s a brand that’s
also Innovation there’s a formula involv
in the product itself if that’s a patent
for there maybe and then we dress up and
the clothes that we wear designed those
are designs that are protected for
intellectual property for copyright and
there’s a brand attached to the design
and that’s a trademark and just in every
aspect of Our Lives even the toilet
paper r was a pat on the point uh we
don’t even notice it because it’s just
so subtle it’s literally everywhere and
um it’s Electro property is also goes
hand in hand with Innovation so it’s not
really a a brand new uh law aspect or or
side of the law is something that’s
always been uh present Whenever there
has been an innovation um involved so we
can trace the concept of intellectual
property back to the uh invention of the
printing press or back to the invention
of the
photogram um because when that
technology arrived uh the concept of
ownership with regards to the
intellectual Creations started to occur
in the minds of authors in those cases
right so copyrights is one of the oldest
uh intellectual property rights to have
ever existed and um well I just wanted
to point out that intellectual property
and Innovation go hand in hand and it
has been this way ever since inovation
have been a um a factor subject to uh
the uh possible appropriation of people
who do not own these rights or or um who
did not get invol in the creative or
Innovative process that brought these
ideas to life in ways that um help
improve the quality of of of human life
and uh that is the uh idea of behind
intellectual property mainly
philosophically to improve the lives of
human beings through economic incentives
and
um in that sense and and to not expand
too much on the subject there are many
rights um under the umbrella of
intellectual property but the the four
main ones are patterns trademarks
copyrights and trade secrets and even if
these rights you can find them under the
umbrella of of intellectual property it
is very important to understand that
there are many
nuances uh when it comes to these
individual rights so um whatever applies
to the concept of a patent and how you
protect a patent does not apply in any
way or form to for example trademarks
because these are two very different
rights that we have as holders and uh
the economic and social incentives
behind them are very different from each
other and these are industrial property
so so intellectual property divides
itself even in uh two categories um
industrial property which is um mainly
focused on incentivizing innovation in
the form of products and services and uh
there is also the umbrella there under
this umbrella there’s also the
creativity aspect which uh in which you
find sometimes patents and and and
copyright so
um these individal rights even if they
are under the umbrella of the
intellectual property concept are very
different from one another and these are
only the four main rights so I think um
to argue in favor or against it um you
you would have to have some in-depth
knowledge on the concept of intellectual
property and then all the subconcepts
that apply uh it’s important to have a a
good understanding on the social and
economic incentives that uh are behind
them and to understand them like for
example in the case of patents where um
they are mainly designed these rights to
incentivize Innovation and yes it does
create a temporary Monopoly but um it is
not without the um disclosure and favor
of science because a patent in itself is
a recipe to recreate technology and
there are um such things as patent pools
that allows for uh The Exchange and
transfer of Technology um there’s the
concept of technology transfer as well
which is precisely that how do we
improve on Technologies and how do we
build on technology that’s already
available without interfering or
transgressing anybody else’s property
rights um intangible property in itself
is a cost of very difficult to
assimilate but intellectual property is
not the only form of inang property that
that that exists that that we use in
exchange today stocks and uh even your
bank account for with inable property so
I think you you touched on um on some of
the basics as well with Jessie and um
well I just I guess I wanted to to
expand a little bit more of that uh but
to not derail too much on the
conversation how how about we get back
to uh blockchain how how is intellectual
property being applied to the concept of
blockchain Co one interesting thing that
we grapple with is that IP also includes
in many of people’s minds St
and um that’s the frontier I think of IB
nfts and IBS is is data
security privacy and understanding how
your IP rights as a older or an IP nft
apply to the underlying data that’s
being generated from the research
studies this is something that I’d love
to hear burns your thoughts on man
because I we don’t I don’t know the
answer of this problem right I think
there people on our team like Benji who
might but um if it was solved I think
all the biod would already be using the
tools that have solved
it how how about you tell us a little
bit on
that so what was the exact question so
my exact question was like how how does
data and data protection tie in to this
concept of Ip and IP to
organization so when we think about data
protection law uh it’s first and
foremost about personal data whenever I
as a human being as a person not my twin
brother uh not any other Austrian not
any other Italian but me personally
could be identified by the data and in
the aftermath by someone or something
could be treated differently then I
would be treated if they do not know my
personal data uh their sense sensitive
and non-sensitive personal data it’s uh
intellectual property itself is not
super relevant to data protection but
data protection is very relevant to uh
intellectual property and that for many
reasons first uh first of all there
could be
overlaps uh one good example would be
biomedical research when you do a trial
and when you pay patients for their data
and so on and you you take the data and
your research digest can then be used
and you can patent it it could still uh
contain data that’s personal that uh
could be singled out and the patient
could be reidentified and in the outcome
maybe somebody gets the idea that what
do I know I have cancer or HIV or
something uh and that could have NE
negative consequences for me so this is
where I see a huge overlap in the data
protection sphere is whenever you write
something on the blockchain especially
if it’s transparent or so on it’s status
quo and state-ofthe-art to encrypt it
really strong
anyways uh but this is where the overlap
starts because this is also where over
all the world moves uh at the time we
have more and more data processing going
on the age of Big Data already happened
10 years ago we are far past
that uh and the age of data protection
more and more grows now that we are
faced with these realities and the
reality is that in places where you
don’t have data protection people get
singled out and people have negative
consequences if it’s just uh if it’s
just commercial sendings in the in the
mailbox but it happens and it gives that
sense of surveillance and uh it’s
overall not uh not really not really
freeing but we also have protection
standards uh especially for medical data
or other sensitive data uh at least in
some parts of the world but these parts
of the world are also the parts where
the most research is done and the most
valuable institutes are based uh and if
your research and if your uh scientific
products or findings should be able to
be transferred to them and so that they
can also use it it will needs to comply
with the data protection rules in place
uh it’s there are different regulatory
Frameworks but they are all they are all
centered around the question can I
single out the person behind it and is
it possible that this person behind the
data has uh has some negative
consequences out of being
identifiable and there uh the uh the
overlap is really huge but also
technically it’s uh intellectual
property thanks to Bianca for explaining
it so much in depth has a lot of
similarities with personal data
protection it’s a restrictive law not
aimed at economic incentives and so on
not aimed at you being able to double
down on an idea that you would see as
more of less of value otherwise but to
protect your own data if I’m the owner
or the artist uh the owner then of some
intellectual property that I created I
have uh I have Justified interests in it
not being copied it not being used
without my authority and so on and the
same happens with my personal
data whenever somebody uses my personal
data I have legitimate interest in not
granting it and overall there’s the
trend of searching data to minimization
whever we don’t need uh to use personal
data for identification or for uh the
extra mile whenever it’s easier without
with blockchain or with curless systems
then is also liability wise and riskwise
a huge upgrade uh if we go the trustless
way and this is what uh we can bring
today I think and this is one of the
huge steps that the technology will go
very soon and and uh it’s even refining
for exactly these things in the future
you will not need your ID to show to
some other human being in order to prove
that you own access to exactly this one
entry of a database of biomedical
research and if you want your data
deleted and in many areas you have the
right to reverse the conent and then
they have to delete your data anyways
and they can find if they inate you can
offer uh the action data subject is the
person whose data is about yeah with
your crypto key you I don’t know who you
are when you exess and delete your own
entry you don’t need to tell me who you
are you just need to prove that you have
these key and if somebody steals the key
then that is up to you and you know that
risk from the beginning on so this is
how the landscape would change or will
change because the upsides are so huge
that it’s really a question of time and
especially with the overlaps in
biomedical research I think whenever
else is sociological relevant data or so
on or or just yeah personal identifiers
the age of someone is he member of
Italia or not it’s it’s like not such
a it’s not like being Chinese no
uh and then it’s very easy to single out
single persons and it will be
tremendously easier to single out single
persons when AI gets more accessible uh
in an offensive way because then
everybody can just use it so we need to
get fit for that era now and this is I
think the large overlap but it’s also to
be industry Fit For A globalized economy
of scientific findings and yes also
intellectual property as a whole because
intellectual property as a whole
nowadays relies on centralized forces
that give out or accept certifications
for Courtyards that afterwards decide
who really holds them and all these
problems so many of these problems we
could we could bypass with blockchain
and with trustless systems and with data
protection of course as
well so on the subject of time I’m sorry
to say that we are running out of it
right now and uh we have three more
questions on topic specifically on uh
tokenized intellectual property so I
guess we’re goingon to have to skin
through it uh Jesse but could you
summarize the what we’re talking about
when we when we say tokenized IP um why
should anyone in the audience consider
tokenizing their IP do you see any real
world implications uh applications that
could benefit a country such as hondur
or that could apply to a special
economic zone as the one we are in
now thank you thank you for the
question I
think one of the things that users of
this protocol struggle with is whether
the
data that is attached to the research
transfers with the ownership of the IP
tokens right because you don’t what you
don’t want is a transaction that happens
between two other parties that you
didn’t consent with as the data producer
the individual whose clinical trial data
may be involved and then the new party
to have access to your data without your
consent and it’s something that we often
have to explain is not part of Ip
tokenization the data protection like BN
said it’s separate it’s simp it’s
related but it’s it’s also separate and
even in legal departments where data
privacy is grouped in the greater IP
Department of the law firm often it’s
still understood as a separate thing
because with IP transfer doesn’t always
come data
transfer and and even when you tokenize
IP so when you take your intellectual
property rights and you mint a you know
a a token on ethereum or another
blockchain that attests to you having
those rights or you have rights and then
you distribute tokens on ethereum and
you attest that those those holders have
certain rights like uh Yuga Labs has for
its board AP uh its board Apes where it
says with a contract online any holder
of an ape has all IP rights related to
this a um or other collections like Mady
attach a copy copy left license that
says there is no owner of this this
actual underlying artwork you could own
the token but it doesn’t near the owner
of the art anybody can copy paste it
whatever it’s copy left
so you have this this tokenization of
Ip um and it doesn’t travel the to the
Token itself doesn’t travel with the
data necessarily or at least ownership
to the data it may travel with a way of
using the data that doesn’t violate data
protection
rules um and you also have a transfer of
Ip that doesn’t have to be
irreversible to the the extent that uh
people ask well what if you lose your
key to your IP
an you know what if you you your token
gets stolen does your IP get stolen too
and the answer is no it doesn’t that
it’s not a valid transfer of
intellectual property
that even of real property right but
with real property there’s often a time
whatever say you
somebody rules that if you lost it
somebody found it they actually some
amount of time with IP it’s not so much
the case so two things to be aware of
when we talk about tokenizing IP which
is again just taking your IP rights and
minting tokens on a blockchain that
represent that you have those rights or
having IP rights and then making tokens
and distributing those to distribute
those rights and then representing in
some way with an adhesion contract kind
of legal contract that you just you know
posts on a website that says the holder
of this token has a certain R you IM
those those tokens with IQ
R A meta layer on top of it the transfer
of those IP tokens and tokenized IP
doesn’t necessarily equate to a lawful
transfer of data or even the transfer of
the underlying IP if if if the
transaction is a theft or some other
unlawful transaction of the underlying
IP token so what it really represents is
a dance between this onchain system of
powers power to buy and sell and
transact um you know whatever is
attached to the underlying tokens but
also offchain D of right I’m so so sorry
to interrupt you we’re running out of
time would it be okay to summarize um
what your thoughts are us I don’t know
if you can hear
me yeah summarize what sorry yeah sorry
we’re running out of time so I don’t
know if it’s okay for you to summarize
your thoughts in 20 seconds because the
last thoughts of the point that you’re
trying to make just now if that’s okay
how about that call to action Jesse Yeah
call to
action yeah just just just do it you
know go go on the App connect wallet and
start tokenizing
things please give a Round of
Applause well thank you so much Blanca
Jesse and burns um that was incredibly
insightful so I want to open the floor
for overview of prosperous set a legal
framework and if you could please
welcome Nick
tras so real quick thank to Nick H
currently serving as a general counsel
of Honduras Prosper LLC also chairman of
the board s
CSS trustee at prosper reptation Center
Nick plays a pivotal role in shaping
dispute resolution strategies he’s also
an agent instructor at the Colangelo
College I’m hoping I’m pronouncing that
correctly of business Grand County
University also feder Society expert and
managing member of me dra’s law and
policy analysis LLC he provides
strategical analysis and policy guidance
n earn his jury Sofer from Leola
University Chicago School of Law
solidifying his commitment to excellence
in law and public service
welcome thank you
Victor well you know as I’m standing
here about the speak and there’s power
points watch out I just wanted to say
this is the most gratifying thing about
being Affiliated Prosper to you it’s
seeing this ecosystem it’s seeing your
interest your efforts building on the
foundation that so many of us support
our heart soul in and I really mean that
I you know we’ve already heard once but
I I got to say it again car Carlos pan
is in the
audience and he is a in a sense a
founding father of the entire concept of
zes in Honduras he
is uniquely among several people who
also have the same uh position influence
in in in sort of birthing role but
unique among them he’s the pragmatic guy
he’s the guy that created the structures
in the Z law in the Constitutional
Amendments that underpin it that Keep Us
Alive
today one of the great things about the
cross legal framework is the
redundancies built into it to withstand
a heavy load of crazy
politics and it took a guy like Carlos P
and the team around him to see what was
needed and two years after they
supposedly repealed the Z organic law
we’re still here we’re still here
because of those
redundancies let me also say it’s not
just the fact that we’re protected by
the Honduran Constitution it’s not just
the fact that we’re protected by the
Kuwait Honduras bilateral treaty it’s
not just the fact that we’ve got in the
organ guarantee of legal stability for
the longest term of legal stability of
any legal civility agreement agreed to
by the technical secretary but there’s
also something else that’s unique about
Honduras that I have to underscore as
part of the legal framework and prosper
and that is the doctrine of acquired
rights you see in Honduras there is
actually a proud ancient well-respected
Tradition at least until perhaps
recently but there’s a proud tradition
of this Doctrine called aquari rights
it’s similar in the United States to
what we call grandfathering if you
repeal a law and you happen to be
operating under the old system you’re
kind of protected for a certain period
of time that Doctrine called acquired
rights here in at Honduras is much much
more robust in practice and in Doctrine
than grandfathering is in the United
States and one of the foremost experts
two of them actually that are in this
room is Carlos 14 and also Jorge
colindas Jorge of course is the
technical Secretary of Ros and Carlos
technical Secretary of mar I I am so
grateful not only to Carlos Pena for him
adding layers of protection to that doc
but I’m grateful for the Honduran people
and the intellectuals and the lawyers of
Honduras that have been battling not
just recently but for decades to
strengthen and maintain the doctrine of
coring rights which is also one of the
key features that protects us so
understand this in a lot of places in
the world they may try to create another
Prospero
then we try to have a z system but
there’s an organic quality to our legal
framework and its legal stability that
probably can only be found in Honduras
it’s the combination of constitutional
Provisions treaty protections thoughtful
foresight in the drafting of the organic
law and a rich strong cultural legal
tradition that protects investors when
they rely substantially on an existing
lead frame is that set of ingredients
that makes it possible for you to do
what you’re doing here which is
fantastic it’s What Gives Life Meaning
for me not just doing legal
stuff so what is the the the essence of
this
system great get old I I read but I
can’t
see
[Music]
I maybe somebody else could next
page all
right I grew up in the city of Chicago
which ironically has a similar flag to
Honduras and I’m not saying this is the
simulation or anything but I think I was
well trained for my current role
practicing the city of Chicago for
nearly 10 years and in that role I came
to understand that the fundamental
missing elements of government
everywhere that doesn’t that ensures
that government really provides right
incentives for the government is the
lack of recognition that you need
government officials to be
fiduciaries the nature of governance is
properly thought of as a public trust in
which the authorities in that system are
supposed to have the highest duty of
care prudence and loyalty to those that
they
govern with their
consent and one of the core features one
of the most important aspects of the
Prosper legal system is built into the
charter and the way that officials like
Mor think about their job every day and
that is every public official Prosper a
is a literal truste is a true fiduciary
in a common law sense is as beholden to
the residents of prospera as a board of
directors member is to their
shareholders and that’s the least that
we need in government to align
incentives at the top to the bottom you
need them to recognize that they owe
their highest degree of care to you and
we mean it in Prosper there is no
sovereign immunity for public officials
in Prosper we only limit liability based
on a formula that takes into account
what we can afford to pay or whether
there’s insurance and we only limit
liability to the extent that it’s
negligent conduct anything
else say jge you’re on the hook for I’m
on the hook for sometimes I’m
legislative Council from time to time
but this is critical you cannot have any
responsible or efficient government if
no one in government has a personal
stake in the outcome it’s
impossible that’s key the second
essential element is you I hope you’re
all e- residents because otherwise we
got to eject you right
now you don’t know this or maybe you do
but e residents are a key component of
prosper and not because I’m a huge fan
of democracy that’s not
it what you do in Prosper is hold our
feet to the
fire every e resident has standing to
enforce every law in Prosper now I know
that sounds a little bit uh
dangerous but there’s only one way you
can keep a system honest and that is to
have somebody who watches the Watchers
and of course that then ask watches the
Watchers and watch the Watchers But
ultimately the consent of the government
is you is the residents and so
ultimately the residents have to be the
people that hold our Fe to the fire and
prosper ensures every resident has that
standard there are no complicated
procedural Gams like you see in so many
places around the world you have the
right to enforce the
law you put these two things together
and it’s a high-risk occupation being in
government in Prospero and we’re
constant L thinking carefully about what
we do and how we do it it keeps us up at
night sometimes and to that end let me
emphasize we also need you to come up
with some model legislation I’ve heard a
great deal of tremendous ideas Concepts
in theory appeals to prosperous Council
whoever that is but I very rarely see
model legislation cross my desk or my
inbox we have a handful of examples and
I’m very proud of the Christian that
court is hand in and others but we don’t
get anyone putting on paper the ideas
that they claim are going to transform
the world so my request of you and it’s
only one request R is going to be
educational is if you believe in all
these ideas that we’ve been hearing
about the transformative ideas sit down
at your laptop start drafting email it
to me I’ll email it to Jorge Jorge will
email it to the council
trustees and they will consider it and
also let me just emphasize finally I may
be general counsel Prosper but I ain’t
the
government I only have a voice and it’s
not even an officially substantive voice
ultimately the people you need to
persuade on the merits of these ideas
are people like Forge and frankly people
like Carlos peda both behind the scenes
and otherwise because ultimately many of
these great ideas have to go up to a
hurant oversight committee called the
camp who are populated by similarly
minded folks so understand as Pros
General councel basically I say you know
I think this looks like a good idea
maybe there’s something here maybe
there’s not but from there it’s it’s the
trustees it’s the technical secretary
and ultimately it’s C so keep that in
mind but as I said I think these are the
two most important elements of our
government system uary public officials
and residents with the power to hold
them to the fire next slide
please there we go oh you
did so now get let’s get to the
newg what makes prospera attractive is
not necessarily the amount of Taxation
but how you’re tax so let me just give
you a couple of ideas of how we’re
structured here
I’ve not included land value tax and
customs in this Pleasant looking fill
because currently land value tax is
suspended because uh the national
government is not being very friendly it
was felt that that it was proportionate
response uh one of the instances in
which the national government is not
being friendly as they denying us our
customs authorities and our free trade
status which we have paid for two years
in a row uh so until that comes back
along with the other rights that we are
entitled to
uh the land value tax will remain
suspended most likely I if the council
doesn’t change his mind but aside from
that we do have a very robust income tax
and Retail B and I’m happy to say that
it is sustaining most of the operations
of the zity governance system as of
today as of this year for the first time
in five years the retail B is a very
simple tax it is designed to take the
vat out of vat and I’ll explain how next
their income tax to the extent that
anyone ever could tolerate an income tax
is the most tolerable income tax there
is and I’ll explain that next now behind
that is a private government service
provider that acts as tax commiss tax
commission that’s a general service
provid now let me emphasize this is
another feature of the Cross governance
system that most of the day-to-day
Administration has been outsourced to a
private body called the general service
provider that is profit motive oriented
and therefore has the same kind of
attention to customer uh customer
well-being customer opinion and
efficiency that you would expect in the
private Cent this is a key element in
the taask commission and when you’re
looking to where the money goes well
sadly I I’m an astro agent in Arizona
I’m also an attorney licensed for I
don’t know 28 years so far ultimately I
serve my firm serves as the truste the
Prosper trust the revenues are kept in
trust in esro and then directed as as
the technical secretary Council directed
in between there here and there are
interpretations that you can ask for
practice notes and unlike the IRS we
don’t yet charge $10,000 for an opinion
but if you look at our tax code I wanted
to emphasize if anything’s unclear you
can ask you can petition there may be a
fee eventually you can petition for an
official tax opinion from the source
which is probably going to be a lot
cheaper than finding out later and from
time to time we do publish tax forms and
so
on nice you don’t
mind so what is the retail bat what is
this in essence a retail bat is a 2.5%
sales tax what we call a retail Deb is
we limit the 5% dat to what we call the
retail value ad which is the 50% of the
retail sales
price in substance it’s at 2.5% sales
tax now a sales tax unlike any other
type of tax is usually regarded as the
most voluntary so it’s least bad from a
moral sense it’s also viewed as more it
doesn’t discourage the sorts of things
that you really need for a Zone to grow
which is investment and unfortunately in
good tax T to discourage that but a
consumption tax discourages consumption
which allows for a reallocation towards
other things than consumption uh so it’s
not a terrible tax and it’s very simple
and it only applies as the text wall
says so if you want to take a snapshot
of that you’ll get a better
understanding but this is one of the key
components a
2.5% sales tax on retail
sales is that the the next slide yeah
all
right sorry one more
B There You Go income text text W that’s
only for your reading pleasure what I
want to highlight is in essence what our
income text in Prosper is is a flat tax
on gross income and we use the Brazilian
standard of Presumed income to
determine what portion of gross income
is applied to with the standard 10%
tax and what you find is that because we
deem 50% gross
income to be presumed taxable income in
fos The effective rate for individuals
is 5% and because we deem 10% of
revenues earned inside of Prosper as
presumed income for taxation the 10%
rate apply effectively generates a 1%
gross income tax now you’re probably
going to say oh my God that’s a really
low tax it’s unfair that’s a it’s a a
tax Haven it’s not because it’s very
hard to evade most tax systems can be
easily evaded and the people who evade
the income tax the most are the weest
just ask Apple what profit they make or
Amazon what profit they make the beauty
of this system is what it is low but
it’s also almost impossible to evil if
you’re making Revenue you’re going to be
paying a tax and the Simplicity of this
is amazing I don’t know how many you
filled out your tax form yet I encourage
you to until April 30th April 30th then
the tax B comes it takes literally a
minute to fill out your tax one minute
all you have to do is determine what
your gross income is and you’re done now
there’s a little odds and ends here and
there we can talk about that questions
if you want but this is the secret sauce
of economic growth when you have it
transparent easy to understand easy to
comply with Hardon day tax that pretty
much is going to be guaranteed to
collect ironically more than a much more
progressive tax ever can next
slide now there is one downside to
having this tax on gross income with no
deductions very few credits is if you’re
a low margin business you can or if
you’re a startup you’re making Revenue
but you’re losing money from an
accounting perspective uh it can be
punishing you have to reorient your
business model to pass along that tax to
your customer or wherever else you need
to pass it want to which can be
difficult given
markets fortunately we thought of that
you can buy what’s called a marketable
tax
credit and get a multiple of tax credit
value in exchange for that and it’s
highly recommended you have a low volume
business or startup you should buy some
M marketable Tax CRS you can even
convert them into cryptocurrency called
PT and you can trade them bottom line is
depending on how much you spend you can
get up to a 5x multiple and well to get
the 5x you got to give us a lot of money
but for the usual typical tax PA you can
get a 1.5 ax multiplier at least at the
end of the year every dollar that you
spend on so it gives you a reduction on
your taxes it gives us easy up front
income before the tax season is even on
us and for the folks that have low a low
margin or have a startup losing business
this is this is really what makes our
gross lab income tax work without this
it’d be very difficult I encourage you
to buy something it’s almost April 30
you’re paying tax I think somebody
did next
[Music]
slide all right we do have regulations
we’re going to get into that in promise
one of the things that I’m proud of in
Prosper is the What’s called the labor
benefit f one of the ideas in Prosper is
that we would take what the United
States you call your
401k and you would call maybe even UI
you take a pool of money and you instead
of giving it to a bureaucrat a handle in
a Ponzi scheme which you may not ever
see instead you give it to the employee
to own and so the way that all social
welfare benefits are handled in Prosper
is with an employer funded labor benefit
fund which can LS everything from
retirement down to education even
housing and it’s owned by the employee
they can take it with them from job to
job and the percentage of the employer
contributes is also up to the employees
Choice depending on how they want uh
their minimum wage and obviously many
people in prosort probably the vast
majority don’t get paid at the minimum
wage or paid Much More Much Higher
market rate but this allows for the
employee to decide which time preference
is more for and it allows them to have a
more fair and Equitable savings younger
people can choose to have less save
older people can choose to more save but
most importantly this is money you hold
your money and it can be invested and
can incl interest it’s your
proper best part about this is the
effect that it has on Employers in my in
my employers you’re are not held hostage
to your particular employer for your
particular set of benefits you are much
more free as a as an employee to move to
a better employer because you own the
vast majority of your benefits and that
helps diminish some of the bargaining
power that may be illegitimate in the
employer’s hands in the labor market
this is that evening of the bargain
power may be more important for
maintaining a good work environment than
anything else we do
next finally
regulation now Prosper has a unique
backbone to the system and that is
Prosper has the only regulatory system
in the world that is designed to find
the optimal level of Regulation and it’s
not just the fiduciary responsibilities
of the officials it’s more than that in
Prosper the first line of defense in
regulation is what we call the
Regulatory insur and we’re going to go
into more detail about this but the
philosophy of this was as follows
a insurer is uniquely positioned to both
not over regulate and not under regulate
because an insurer will lose money if
they over regulate I.E they require too
many things of the insurer they have to
do to many inspections and look for
compliance it becomes a money loser but
if they under regulate if they don’t
have any standards if they just give
everybody Insurance then they get a
million more
claims so a insur uniquely potential
regulators and certainly more so than an
impartial bureaucrat who has no person
stake in
anything an insurer will look for that
optimal level of Regulation between too
much and too little and even better our
markets designed to be competitive so
that other insurance companies can come
in and each insurance company can make
that judgment for themselves so that you
don’t have to force one size fits all
determinations on how best to regulate
now this this is critical to the overall
Prosper system now what is a regulated
area in Prosper not everything’s
regulated Prosper regulates only what is
traditionally regulated they’re listed
below and if you’re not in one of those
Industries as commonly understood then
the regulation that applies to you is
simply the common law the common law and
its system of legal liabilities duties
and so forth right so understand that if
you don’t fall into these Industries
generally speaking you’re not going to
have regulatory insurance now if you’re
a physical resident you will have to get
residence Insurance everyone who’s a
physical resident fulltime in the zone
has have a minimal amount of reg
non-regulatory but still residential
insurance to cover any wrongdoing they
do but it’s relatively inexpensive and
it’s not meant to provide sort of
inspections in that so if you’re in
those Industries you will have to De
regory insurance if you’re not then
you’re not next
the industries that are regulat are what
you would
expect and of these I think the ones
that are most of interest to this crowd
would be the finance and insurance group
of course the theal it’s the health uh
but there’s others all the traditionally
regulated Industries next
SL
so Prosper is innovative not only for
placing the first line of regulatory
responsibility in the only type of
institution that has an incentive to
optimize level regulation it’s also
unique in allowing regulatory choice at
a level you’ve never seen before in
Prosper you can choose from 30 countries
and their subnational jurisdictions like
California and operate in a regulated
industry as if you were there you can
design your own regulation as I said we
need model legislation you want to do a
dial with a better rapper show me what
that is show that to PGE show that to
folks like Carlos let’s get that done
and then there’s others who came before
you you don’t have to reinvent the wheel
one of the requirements we have for any
new optimal regulation is that it’s
drafted in Universal terms so anybody
can benefit from it who chooses to
operate so there may be examples of
existing regulations that work for you
already and then finally you don’t even
have to be regulated in a prescriptive
sense you can’t just say hey I’m going
to operate under the common law even as
a regulated indust grp but the downside
of that is you’re exposed to 3x
liability and uh and you can pierce the
corporate veil on top of that so you
better be in an industry that doesn’t
cause a lot of injury or doesn’t have
particularly uh uh you know anyone who
who Who’s uh doesn’t know what they’re
doing but if you go to La R in a
regulated industry you’re extremely
exposed and even then you still have to
get the regulatory insurance and it may
not be available to you if you don’t
know what you’re doing I can tell you
that in Prosper we have a what we call a
regulatory Insurance Last Resort it’s an
affiliate of the GSP the general service
provider we do risk scoring on
applicants and below a certain risk
there won’t be Insurance offered so
anyone operating in the commonw system
it’s going to have a difficult time
getting insurance from our insur BL
Resort now it doesn’t mean that some
other insurance company couldn’t emerge
and compete in the marketplace for that
sort of low tier of people I mean we if
you’re from the United States you know
about drivers’s insurance right and you
know there’s substandard insurance
companies and they did come in
but the bottom line is if you choose up
common law you’re not out of the woods
you still have to deal with your
regulatory insurer and you’re going to
be held perhaps to even higher standards
by a regulatory insurer if you don’t
show or demonstrate in your application
that you’re expert in this
field
next so you get your insurance within 60
days of obtaining your residency and one
of the things about this is if if you
don’t get your insurance in a timely way
you’re exposed to some particular
liability you might have to pay 3x the
premium that is the premium cap that’s
applicable it could be quite expensive
so understand that insurance is
mandatory
and it’s sort of the substitute for what
might be called licensing elsewhere but
the difference I want to emphasize is
that licensing anywhere else is not
handled by an insurance company with a
profit motive is not handled by by a uh
competitive set of enforcers it’s not
handled in a context where you choose
what regulatory framework you’re held to
and therefore the typical risks of
capture and inefficiency that you see in
licensing regimes are greatly mitigated
but there’s even a better element of
this because of our robust system you
can interface with the outside
world if you’re in a particular industry
that needs to deal with all those crazy
people in Europe did I say that or the
United
States you can adopt to operate inside
of Prosper as if you’re in Germany and
you could certify and we’ll talk about
how how you’re operating inside a
Prosper as in Germany and you can obtain
those certifications and you can use
that interface better with The
Regulators outside of Pros in Germany so
there’s an analogy to there’s an
advantage to having this sort of system
as opposed to no system you can
interface with the outside world on the
standards that you want to
interface
next that’s kind of hard to read for me
probably hard to read for you but I
wanted to show you the structure of the
regulatory Insurance process so you
understand the level of oversight that
occurs in a traditional regulated
industry now this is not in the finance
insurance industry it’s a little bit
more complex but this is the case in
healthcare industry
so first you apply then you make your
regulatory election you say hey I’m
going to be operating as if I’m in
California or Germany or under Christian
vor’s Prosper Health regulation
a then you get what we do is called an
interim endorsement an interim policy
that lets you operate relatively quickly
but it subjects you to a lot of
oversight early on or it requires you at
the risk of losing your policy to submit
to questioning and oversight by a
regulatory insur
expect what the goal is is to get you
out of that inter policy so you’re not
constantly monitoring so you’re not
constantly
questioning we believe that should be 6
to 12 months you should only have your
inter policy for 6 to 12 months after
that policy has been monitored and your
operations and expertise has been
assessed a policy that is tailored to
you will be issued and then with that
policy it will always have basically the
same elements you will periodically
certify that you’re acting and
operating compliance for your regulatory
election and you have to do that through
a regulatory expert and then
periodically we audit those
certifications so we do pass along the
cost of those Audits and you do have to
pay for your own certifier but this is
actually to the advantage of the system
because if you don’t actually keep Good
Records if you don’t have everything
compiled to support your
certifications the job of the auditor is
going to get a lot more expensive for
you so you have very strong reason to
develop very thorough certifications
that can then make it easy and less
expensive for you when the auditor comes
to verify that you need your operating
compliantly and so that continues in a
loop forever hopefully you stay in
compliance forever and the benefit of
the final insurance policy is it can
only be terminated for good cause and
there’s no Defence given to the
insurance policy so if you feel like
it’s been terminated for bad cause you
take it to the arbitration Center
challenge it and you have even shot at
arguing your
Cas so I understand we’re close to the
end oh thanks tied up here lot of lights
um let me show you what happens in the
finance industry because this is
important there’s a lot of additional
elements to this process
go that looks a little scarier but it’s
actually self-imposed punishment in a
sense uh in the financial industry there
a entity called the rfsa the road Time
Financial Services Authority remember
the two gentlemen I showed you up front
with next to the fiduciary duty well
those are two of the gentleman one is
Jose mokata uh who used to be a central
banker and the other is soan Dasa who
used to be Deputy General Council of us
Homeland Security they’re two of the
three members of the
rfsa you can choose to make them your
friend you can choose to operate under a
regulatory system that pulls them in to
monitor what you’re doing in parallel to
the insurance process and that’s what
this shows now why would you do that to
yourself why would you submit yourself
to being oversight overseen by the
former deputy General Council of the US
Homeland Security Department because if
you want interface with a wider world
you’re going to need people like that
backing what you’re doing so what this
flowchart shows you is how that the
insurance interfaces with the rfsa as a
true regulatory body
if you want to go that route you don’t
have to go rfsa but I guarantee you if
you don’t go rfsa the only place you can
be doing anything Financial is going to
be inside
of but if you want to reach the outer
world go through the
rfsa and basically the rfsa generally
takes an initial Peak and decides you
know they will do some pretty thorough
screening at the beginning before they
issue their own they then do have
licenses but after that they will
largely defer to the insurer so once the
rfsa is made a decision that you are
capable and
qualified then essentially they already
have a standing decision to defer the
regulatory insure and you’re back in the
same regulatory Insurance process which
again is always going to consist
ultimately of two components
periodically certify your compliance
periodically Set uh submit to
audits of course if they don’t quite
trust that you’re able to do it and you
ask for it they can’t stay on top of you
alongside of the insurer but again this
is a feature not a bug for those who
want to interface with wi so there you
have it that’s the Prosper regulatory
system and I think this is the first
time I did it in under three days
so thank
you and I know sweating a lot of you but
I will take some
questions we can talk later thank you
very
much thank you
thank you um well thank you everyone uh
before we Gove for a lunch I just want
to say to people watching online uh
we’ll be back at around two so please
come
back
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yeah you say
anything hello hello
you hear me
Alberto yes
see
hi Christian yes thank
you good afternoon everyone so as
Christian said I’m Alberto hernandes
Franks I’m the CEO of the Prosper
arbitration Center for pack for short
and I’ll be the moderator for this
segment uh so before we begin I’ll
present the panelists Gabriel shapir and
gorgi Gabriel is a CEO founder of metal
xx and a US attorney with over a decade
of experience in the structuring
negotiation and execution of strategic
transactions for technology clients and
uh he has also represented and advised
clients in connection with merer and
Acquisitions Venture financing and crowd
sales govern governance design and
issues and product designs and
compliance for peer-to-peer Technologies
and uh G Ventures Metal X is devoted to
a cybernetic law Solution codeveloped by
devs and lawyers to fuse autonomous
software legal structures and Mr Alex
gorgi is an educator entrepreneur
interested in special jurisdictions
break ourway civilizations and
disruptive
Technologies um he began his journey at
Middlebury College where he studed
International politics and economics
before getting a Masters in Education
policy from Stanford University after
realizing that his dreams of disruption
could not be real realized in America he
moved to sasan here in huras to become
one of the first ever residents of a
free private City where he works as a
consultant Community manager and free
Ci’s
Ambassador um so now the other panelists
will be able to join us uh we will do
this segment in a different manner both
speakers have agreed to present the
subject of you’re choosing and um so
after each Exposition will open up to
questions and um it should be around 20
minutes each so uh first off is Gabriel
who will talk about arbitration
procedures to plug into existing legal
system systems and um the creation of of
new legal systems that just replaces
Legacy Justice systems onchain and um
well of course intervene if he wants to
and and vice versa when it’s his turn so
Gabriel you have the virtual form cool
um yeah so I’ll just preview I do this
on kind of short notice so I don’t have
um like slides or anything and this is
also a topic that I haven’t really um
written about uh uh per se but I have
kind of recently started um like
tweeting about a bit and trying to
research some solutions for um and I’m
just gonna share my screen here to show
you a few things so there’s kind of like
kind of like a few things um that I’d
like to maybe try to convince you of or
like yeah just like get you get everyone
to start thinking about right one is
that like um I think that we well so so
we’ve had some uh like Crypton native
dispute resolution
mechanisms um the most famous one is
claros and then there was a similar one
called Aragon court right and um like
the way that they worked basically is
like a bit like futury um basically like
you would get like their token right and
then um you’re selected if you if you
stake the token then if there’s some
kind of dispute uh that this system is
supposed to decide then you have some
like like stake weighted probability of
getting selected as a quote unquote
juror in the case and then there’s
basically like like a betting mechanism
right um so it’s it’s again it’s sort of
like futarchy you know you’re gonna get
the facts of the case and then you’re
going to decide how to vote and
basically if you vote with the
majority uh then you you get money and
if you if you vote against the majority
then you lose money right um and so like
you know this has some appeal like guess
because maybe not everyone can afford
like like true legal arbitrators like
like jams or you know these different
kind of like you know traditional
arbitration systems but on the other
hand it’s like very even though it’s
called a court it’s like massively
different you know from what what most
people want out of a court and in fact
it works almost the exact opposite way
right like if you you know watch the SF
trial or these recent criminal trials
like the Obi Eisenberg trial you know
number one it’s not just a jury
right there’s also a judge uh and the
judge is kind of like referee you know
trying to make sure that the jury only
gets relevant information it gets it in
like a neutral way and trying to make
sure that the jurors are like unbiased
people and things like that right and
and if any given if even a single one of
the jurors doesn’t agree that the person
is guilty then then the person is not
guilty right the person has quitted um
here it works like the so so there’s no
kind of incentive like there’s no kind
of like incentive to just like side with
the majority as such or could group
think in fact quite the opposite any
person who’s outside the group sort of
has like disproportionate power because
they basically get to decide the case
right here you know this type of like
system um you know actually like all
your incentive is just to like guess
what everyone else is going to do and
and agree with them regardless of the
actual merits of the case right so so
and there’s no judge right and there’s
no law really there’s nothing saying hey
you you know you basically you just get
a set of facts and you have to come up
with an answer of what you think will
happen from them but there nothing
there’s nothing saying oh this this
prior case was decided this way this is
the rule and you must decide in
accordance with the rules so even though
we have some experiments on these things
I would like this is like a crypto
dispute resolution system um I would
definitely say that like this is not a
satisfactory solution compared to like
what most people want out of like a
legal system and we could do better
right so that’s one like sort of thought
I’ll put in your head like the next
thought I’ll put in your head is that
there are many many disputes that are
like very specific to the crypto
contexts um that need like credible
neutral decision making like basically
need adjudication right um and I can
give some examples of these right so
like one is like Maker’s black Thursday
um like liquidation uh back in 2020
where like I don’t have time to explain
it all you can look up a bunch of things
about it but basically like tons of um
maker Dow CDP holders had their e in the
system liquidated for essentially zero
dollars uh because like the liquidation
Bots were designed kind of poorly and
ethereum was highly highly congested and
they they basically lost like $8.5
million as a result of that and maker
incurred bad debt because of that um and
you can see in this news story which is
from June 2023 so over three years later
um there was a legal settlement with
these people in a normal court of law
for one 1.1 you know $1.2 million
basically right from one of the maker
Dow entities one of the legal entities
asso out so you know those people still
incurred you know an over $7 million
loss not to mention the opportunity cost
of you know having to litigate this in
court system um you know for over three
years so um like this is seems like a
pretty uh like unfair result right and
you know I’m not saying that necessarily
maker out people did something wrong but
um like this is something that I think
people would want to know the rules for
in advance like what what you know if I
get unfairly liquidated um like am I
going to have like how is it going to be
decided whether I get any money back who
is that money going to come from and how
am I going to get it right just these
basic types of things um the uh another
one are some recent you know quote
unquote defi hacks right one is the
Platypus D defat xplay and another one
which I which I didn’t actually pull up
the story for is the AI Eisenberg mango
one and these are two um like very
similar events basically um in both of
these events uh someone kind of you know
they didn’t hack the system there was no
traditional like hacking of a password
or stealing of data or anything like
that so it actually doesn’t fit under
hacking statutes and and but basically
what what both these quotequote
attackers did is they they just used the
system in a surprising way you know a
quote unquote economic attack and as a
result of that you know the trades that
they were able to do on the system um
they left the system with a bunch of bad
debt and and they made a lot of money
and both of them ended up returning a
bunch of that money and keeping like I
don’t know 10 to 20% something like that
really um maybe
30% so in one of these cases under
French law the you know the attacker was
acquitted in the AI Eisenberg case you
know obviously he’s going to prison
right and so again I’m not saying either
result is wrong or right but I kind of
feel like as a crypto Community you know
we should have our own opinion is this
wrong or right and what should the
punish be and if we just rely on going
to actual nation state courts we we’re
going to get very very inconsistent
answers to these questions so there’s
probably a pretty good reason um why we
would want to have our our own native
crypto native uh answer to this sort of
thing as well as perhaps a way of like
actually recovering the money as opposed
to just like sending some we another
example is coinbase earned $1 million in
quote unquote Mev uh from the curve
Finance hack
and when it was asked to give all
portion of that back to the victims of
the hack it said f no we just get to
keep this right but it is one of the
biggest uh earnings of a validator um
you know for a single single block in
history you know and it was a
mass windfall to them because the hacker
you know Bri them to the attacker ESS
Bri them to process the attack now in
like normal um like courts and stuff
like that we have Notions of unjust
enrichment and other things um and again
and Ed some like systems uh we have ways
of like socializing that and things like
that or some ecosystems I’ve talked
about socially slashing validators who
get like unfair Mev um so again not
saying anyone is wrong or right but
don’t you think that crypto should have
an opinion and a method of adjudicating
the issue of whether or not it is fair
for coinbase to keep all this money when
you know if it were the white hat
himself he’s probably giving you know 80
to 90% of the money back um and and
doing the rest as a white hat um
coinbase is keeping 100% um and yet kind
of like another example is Juno Juno’s
airr drop proposition the notorious
proposition 16 where basically they just
decided that you know someone had broke
in some soft social rules around how
they should have earned the airdrop and
they just
confiscated you know essentially
confiscated their tokens um you know
through a governance proposal and you
know this is like um sort of like I
would say a conflict of interests like
the equivalent of this in court would be
um if you took all the victims of the
mango hack and made them the jury in the
trial and said you know if ob’s guilty
you know then you get $60 million back
right um because it’s literally the
other validators and to Holders decided
whether to do this slashing and
obviously if do the slashing then like
the supplies diminish and all these
people are richer right again it’s just
not really like what is um like ideal
for a justice system so um those are all
just to put like thoughts in your head
uh and then what I’ll quickly say is
like give you another context where this
is coming up and and this relates to the
hack but basically Circle uh based on
this academic paper has come up with uh
two token protocols for reversible
transactions on ethereum and the way
that these would work is basically every
time you do a token
transfer you know there’s going to be
basically some period where um it’s in
doubt whether that token transfer is
actually going to be found if you can
dispute it afterwards uh and the reason
you might disputed is maybe you sent the
transaction by mistake or maybe the the
transaction was done by a hack or as a
back and basically it’s stolen money so
basically the way this would work is
that transactions wouldn’t actually
become final till like 45 days or
something like that right in the
meantime this reversible token could
trade and it would probably trade it
like some kind of discount to the FL
emotional value because people were
pricing the risk that maybe it’s Sten or
something and it could get reversed
right um but but if indeed you do within
that 45 days you know do a transaction
on chain to contest the dispute right
then basically the underlying money gets
frozen the the Arco can also get Frozen
and then it says a quum of Judges is
randomly selected from a pool of judges
to decide um what’s what’s going to
happen in this case so this is like
basically like a protocol that that
Circle sounds like Circle may be
considering implementing for at least
for usdc where you would need um like
crypto native at least dispute
resolution right so um so so that’s all
kind of so this just kind of like shows
I think like the needs for these things
but you know what I would say though is
that like current law is like actually
um like not super good it will be
inconsistent um as applied to crypto as
you see from like the difference between
platypus and mango um and so like what
we should really do here is go beyond
just a dispute resolution system where
you just pick some people and you know
they just decide something or maybe you
go to like real world court and get them
to decide instead I think just like you
know Bitcoin is like nation state
independent money and ethereum is kind
of like nation state independent compute
or nation state independent um Finance
um we should try to have nation state
independent law um and so like you know
I don’t know exactly the way to do that
I have some ideas um but like the basic
thing I would sort of like submit to you
is is that we need that and and it’s not
something like CL where you’re just like
betting on things it should be like a
substantive
evaluation um that that has legitimacy
to it you know and it has consistency to
it right and and then we can
utilize like our onchain powers of um
sort of like you know programmatic um
like money use
to to like enforce these things much
better than Court scan right because
like even if you win a court case you’re
going to run around and like then try to
like get other local courts to like
seize a person’s assets and like auction
off and stuff um if we have our own
legal system we won’t need to do that
right uh we can just basically have like
a lean on everyone’s assets and have
this like like justice system that can
just like automatically deduct the
damages right um and and that’s a scary
thought but again if we design it in a
way we is good to process uh it could be
just as good if not better than the
traditional legal system so that’s the
idea we we are working on that as kind
of like um like a phase two or phase
three of metalx um where like once we
build all these cybernetic entities and
stuff I think we can connect them up
into Arrangements where they all
basically agree that some legal system
applies to them and and opting to this
and then there can be like competing
legal systems and things like that and
we’ll see like which rules are actually
best and kind of like really get away
from this idea that if something bad
happens on chain we go and run to like
an actual Court uh in some particular
nation state so that’s it I’ll end it
there but um yeah these are the things
I’m thinking about and I think you
should think about them too and maybe
we’ll come up with some
stuff thank you Gabriel I’ll open up to
questions right now are there any
questions
there’s an international Court of
arbitration is there a reason that you
think that’s
insufficient uh say again I couldn’t
hear very well there are international
courts of arbitration uh and there’s the
International Community of Arbiters uh
you know what do you think is
insufficient for
that yeah I mean ultimately um the those
are dependent on the nation state legal
systems still right um like in order you
can get a result from those arbitration
uh systems that a court will enforce as
a final judgment right but you still
then have to go use traditional nation
state techniques to try to enforce that
um most of those techniques are based
essentially on coercion at the end of
the day based on like military force um
you know uh um or you know like the
threat of bodily imprisonment and things
like that and so what I hope is that you
can get a less coercive more
voluntaristic more free market legal
system um through this um and then also
I just think if you actually look at how
the real world law has under how well it
has understood crypto systems and their
goals to date they have not understood a
very well today they just kind of look
at things in a very meat-headed way and
apply kind of a boomer mentality so we
also just kind of I think need our own
rules about what we think is supposed to
happen and we don’t have to be bound by
the whole you know history of
traditional me space legal disputes in
in defining
that thank you any other
questions Mr Alex thank you Gabriel
hello hey can you hear
me yes I hear you oh okay got you okay
so so Gabe the question is is is the
solution just simply like uh you have
each member of the Dow or the network
City you assign a term to service that
says for all purposes related to the Dow
you follow the substance of the Law
whatever you want maybe I don’t know if
you’re familiar with ulx but is an open
source legal system based on the
statements of common law and other uh
template based laws and then you have uh
the choice of venue be the arbitration
Center set at the Dow and then just to
make sure you have interoperability you
try to form a network of dows that try
to recognize each other’s decisions is
that essentially all that’s necessary I
think the only open problem there is
confiscation and that’s what’s helpful
about the courts because even the case
of arbitration ultimately um if there’s
any appeal has to be held in in a court
and also if you want to get the gains
from them that they don’t want to
voluntarily give you have to go through
legal system in order for them to
actually seiz those
assets so yeah I guess it’s a question
and also you know how do we address that
problem as
well um for some reason it’s very hard
to hear you the something with the sound
quality um so so I didn’t fully catch
that it’s but the the gist
sounded um
certainly uh yeah like like something
that could work um I I personally would
like to see some some some of the claros
flavor brought a little bit more into
these things as well combining the best
of kind of um like law with actual
mechanisms so like like an example of
that you know just if you think about
this this this this circle this circle
usdc reversibility proposal type of
thing is you could imagine you know
there would be like a market in these in
these R tokens right and so actually
people are going to you know start
pricing what they think the outcome of
these dispute is right so you know some
some kind of there’s a lot of cool
things you could do with that feeding
into a justice system um for example you
could say okay well if the result that
the court reached is like within three
standard deviations of what would have
been predicted uh based on like the the
market differential between like the
full price of the assets and the r token
um then it’s not appealable it’s a final
judgment but if it’s more than three
standard deviations then it is
appealable um and my guess is yeah again
I’m going to be thinking more about like
mechanisms and talking to like smart you
know Game Theory guys but my guess is
it’s kind of like Greenfield to to play
with some of these things and really get
some some interesting novel mechanisms
in
place yeah I don’t have B people with my
questions all right any other questions
anyone
else all right I think no more questions
here we have a question sorry we have a
question I’ve been hesitating because
communication has been uh problematic
but
um how do we maintain the acquired gains
because we spoke uh earlier about the
acquired gains in the con like in the
context of like like like historical
development of Law and how important
those are for for for human rights for
property rights Etc how do we maintain
that under these novel systems that seem
very um probabilistic and like
prediction
oriented yeah I think I mean I think
that’s that’s kind of the question right
I think you have to um it has to evolve
over time and you could actually I think
as maybe the the previous query may have
suggested you could you could pick and
choose sort of like the the best of
different parts of legal systems around
the world and kind of like incorporate
them by reference um into your your new
thepoke legal system and then you you
know then you basically have to you know
you have to have an appeal system in
place right and you have to incentivize
people to get the right answer and that
if they reach the the wrong answer as
decided by an appeals court you know
that that either their their reputation
suffers or their money suffers in some
way and then over time you hope that you
kind of you kind of build on top of that
so I think like it would it would look
sort of like that um again haven’t you
know I I definitely haven’t thought out
everything like this and don’t have like
like an actual proposal like what such a
system should be but I’m more just kind
of like see the need for it and I think
it’s like like a space that people
should be hacking on much more
all right thank you so much anyone else
have any other
questions
no okay no more questions on on this
side thank you okay so Alex you have the
floor Alex subject is um about access to
Justice why it’s important and why the C
can lead the
world
this Alex you’re muted
okay I think he might be currently
startling with the
internet yes
hopefully everyone can hear
now yes we can hear you
can someone confirm they can hear me yes
we can hear you can you hear
us can you hear us we can hear
you yes I hear
you all right so today I’ll be talking
about freedom of Association as a
supplementary justice
system so who am I I’m alexori for those
that don’t know me I work for morizon
Real Estate developer I’m a free cities
Ambassador and the consultant I’ve
helped a lot of businesses open up in
zis including Min Mars solar farms and
some crypto companies and I’m one of the
few people that live in ATI something
I’m very proud
about so legal systems as most of you
know are very important for human
Prosperity having predictable dispute
resolution is essential for investment
trade and innovation
it also promotes stability and fairness
which is essential for good social
functioning we need people to believe
that Society is just and fair if you
want them to engage in it not
surprisingly there’s a strong
correlation with rule of law and human
Prosperity as you can see in this chart
right here property rights lack of
corruption rule of law are all very
strongly correlated with economic
success and likely many non-economic
sucess factors as
well but legal systems are not without
their downsides some of the most common
critiques are they’re very complex and
inaccessible your average person in a
jurisdiction is not able to navigate the
legal system without assistance and
hiring such assistance can be very
expensive especially in increasingly
specialized legal field as we see
today it’s also often a l and costly
process to get Justice many cases are
not resolved for years and all of this
time has a cost both in monetary terms
and in resolving the dispute itself
there’s also potential for bias and
inefficiency the impartial legal system
is a very controversial idea does it
exist anywhere can it exist these are
all questions that lawyers and legal
Engineers frequently
discussed but the zes have made a lot of
progress in all these
areas the default in morizon and
prosperetti is to use arbitration and
the arbitration is fast affordable and
accessible in both zes it can be as low
as around
$50 the laws are generally easy to read
inside the zetes and resolutions can be
quick I’ve seen firsthand arbitration
cases in morison zti being completed in
a matter of days and the cost is just
$50 prospera also has arbitration as
cheap as $50 and their arbitration
centers very sophisticated allows for
internationally binding arbitrations
potentially as
well uh Prosper also has a really cool
Innovation that was discussed a few
times today about how you can pick your
own regulatory
system this is very interesting
Innovation because it allows people to
use systems that they’re more familiar
with or that are just a better fit for
their industry or what they’re trying to
do but the rest of my presentation I’ll
be mainly focusing on the idea of
freedom of
Association and its ability to
supplement the justice
system so there’s a model called the
entrepreneurial Community model in which
a single landlord owns and operates a
community an example might be a shopping
mall or Resort these were the the best
quasia entcom that existed before
morison zetti which is now an aspiring
City that operates with this single L
unon model this model has a number of
advantages and also disadvantages but
the the greatest is its ability to
resolve disputes
so we’ll give you some context on c.
which is the most advanced entom
in the world it’s located in chalom
Honduras which is the industrial Capital
it’s the third biggest city in the
country the target market is working to
middle class endurance and the
businesses that employ them and the
value proposition is you can have world
class safety and quality of life and
affordable price that’s what the the
renderings on the right show the the
vision this could be a European city or
an American American cities usually
aren’t this walkable but theoretically
could be a first world city for the
residents and the businesses should have
very competitive economics business
environment and taxes and core to this
is the dispute resolution
supplement in addition to the
arbitration Center morison’s developer
you free move Association to resolve
disputes so I’ll give you some examples
that help illustrate this context
because it’s a very different way to
resolve disputes that one might
traditionally
encounter so imagine here are some
hypothetical scenarios and we’ll discuss
how they could be addressed in the
entrepreneurial Community Freedom
Association model versus AAL model so
imagine that some gang member this is a
real issue one Kors they joined your
community and they’ve been there for a
little while knowing knew who they were
but it’s later discovered that they’re
involved in a violent criminal game but
there’s not necessarily proof that
they’ve done some criminal activity but
maybe there’s people going out in and
out of their house uh they’re it’s what
are they doing they may be up to no good
but you don’t have any proof that
they’re doing something but the
community is concerned they say This
Guy’s in the gang I’ve seen him uh I
know he’s a bad guy but I don’t have any
legal proof he doesn’t have a criminal
record well in the entrepreneurial
Community you could use freedom of
Association the landlord could say
excuse me uh people have said that you
may be in a bot gang we don’t want to
associate with bot gang members uh can
you speak to this allegation and the
person can say uh yes or no or somewhere
in between there can be some uh due
diligence conducted But ultimately if
it’s uh determined that this guy is in a
a violent criminal gang and thus is not
a good fit for the community the
landlord can decide to not REM the
lease whereas in traditional model
person house very difficult to remove
them unless you can find them engage in
some kind of criminal
wrongdoing and so there’s less uh
flexibility there same thing if
someone’s being mean to kids at the park
the the Trope of the the grumpy old man
or lady who’s yelling at the kids so
because they’re having too much fun and
they’re old and bitter this type of
person can create a lot of conflict in
the community and be unliked but usually
there’s little you can do if they bought
their house then they’re there so by in
the entrepreneurial Community model you
can say look children are important part
of our Community Values if they’re
really being excessively loud or
burdensome let us know but in general we
want to be supportive of kids playing we
think it’s important for the society and
culture we fostering so if you don’t
stop yelling at the kids scaring them
then we’re not going to be your
lease same thing if someone is bothering
people maybe they whistling at ladies
they’re doing things that are uh
obnoxious and disruptive but are not
strictly illegal you can again leverage
this freedom of Association
model but this is not just limited to
residential cases it can also be used in
the commercial context so say a
restaurant wants to
open many have to get all kinds of heal
certifications and codes and inspections
all
in this type of dispute resolution
system you can take a very permissive
approach and say the restaurant can open
and we are going to speak to them if
there’s a problem so if there’s lots of
complaints about people getting sick
then we will talk to the restaurant to
say look we don’t want people getting
sick in the community people are saying
they ate your food and got sick what do
you have to say about this and if they
say that we don’t care they they have
weak stomachs you know we’re going to do
what we want then you can decide not to
remove their their
lease same thing if someone wants to
provide a service they don’t have to go
through a complex licensing regime
necessarily they could begin providing
the services and if they start to harm
people whether it’s approvable harm or
suspected harm then again someone can
approach them and leverage freedom of
Association to decide if they’re a good
fit the same thing can apply to uh more
civil cases I’ve personally experienced
this and in the case of loans I’ve given
some personal loans to people inside
morison CTI and one of the biggest
things that encourages people to pay
back is the risk of being uh not having
their lease renewed if they’re deemed to
be a willing deadbe so if they had the
money to pay back but they’ rather spend
it partying than on paying their debts
than the landlord they say we don’t want
to have these type of people in the
community and so we’re not going to
renew the lease because we know this guy
is purposely not paying his debt it’s
not as a result of hardship but just he
would rather enjoy the his life and not
his honor
obligations so this can lead to a
different type of contract
enforcement in which people their
incentives are to be part of a network
whether it’s a city or could be some
kind of digital Network they should
follow the rules and otherwise risk
being banned and this is an alternative
justice system that is a lot more simple
and a lot more efficient in many
ways however it’s not without its
tradeoffs the advantage of speed it’s
when you have this potential of this
Association as a deterrent to provide in
order to provide Justice you can move
very
quickly and you can deal with nuisances
and conflicts you also create a pretty
cool game theory where the people
interacting in your ecosystem they’re
incentivized to behave well to get
continued Association not just to behave
legally but to behave well often you can
engage in behavior that is legal but
somewhat reprehensible and this kind of
freedom of Association
model or supplemental model you can
punish people who
behave legally but in a undesirable
manner however the downside is there’s
not as much predictability the nice
thing about regulations even though it
can result in getting complex is you can
have much more predictable outcomes
because they can Define all number of
cases and how things should work and
operate and you can have a precedent
incorporated into the law itself there’s
also the it being novel and compatible
if you’re financial institution is
licensed under this model of freedom of
Association where you’re free to operate
until you do something problematic and
then your your bank lease won’t be
renewed and effectively shuts down your
bank uh this isn’t very good for getting
reciprocity with other Banks they want
to know who your regulator is and stuff
like that in which case the Prosper
legal model is much better fit
so I can take any questions that people
have on this freedom of Association as a
tool to supplement a justice
system and how it can apply to the zetes
or we
all
right have you thought uh about how you
could implement this in uh smart
contracts the um yeah web three piping
for freedom of Association I know you
mentioned before about how the Internet
Protocol you see that
as a a precursor to this uh so yes
you’re wonder if you can next down on on
that
area yeah be very uh blockchain specific
but I think you’re kind of starting to
see it already with us sanctioning
regimes as the US government makes
extreme penalties for not complying with
its sanctioning regimes various
blockchains exchanges and other parties
are being forced to figure out how to
address these
issues so personally I don’t have the uh
knowledge to determine what’s the best
way to Implement freedom of Association
in the context of a a specific
blockchain but I think you’re going to
start seeing this naturally emerge as
some validators knows and other core
pipe ways in the crypto ecosystem are
either forced or willingly decide to
comply with various sanction regimes and
other government
regulations and I would also note this
might not be good for the decentralized
permissionless version of crypto there
might be a conflict here between the
idea of free association as enforcement
and permissionless internet
permissionless
money yeah thank you Alex um one
question I have is um how this tends to
work in morison right now is that um for
lack of word I mean this in the best
possible way masimo is kind of acting as
like a benevolent dictator and the
community is small enough that he’s able
to know all the individuals and know all
the cases but perhaps that’s not exactly
a scalable model even when Mor zon
becomes larger but in the web 3 context
it’s kind of the point of web3 not to
have a dictator and the other
alternative would be the community
members would be sort of the ones that
would be enforcing um the the removal of
Association in that case that could tend
to evolve into some witch hunts that you
could have community members actively go
after a gang up against other community
members and that could lead to some
negative externalities how could you
avoid that model uh with the
system okay so I think there’s two
questions one is
the freedom of Association done by
dictators versus the community and then
the potential for witch hunts so I’d say
in the case of morizon masmo doesn’t
know most residents and he wouldn’t
really be the one to necessarily make
these decisions there’s a weekly
meetings where issues are discussed by
the the morizon team and then regular
forums where issues are discussed by the
community so it’s uh more of a communal
process
already and I think that tends to work
pretty well the the people who are
you’re talking about uh scalability of
the firm question essentially the the
knowledge question and that the people
closest to the problem will have the
best knowledge and we don’t know how
scalable this will be that that remains
to be seen but uh yeah I think that’s
the best answer is it remains to be seen
so far it’s scaled for The Witch Hunt
aspect of it
um you have to like freedom of
Association allows for witch hunts it’s
it’s kind of your right to associate or
not associate with anyone for any reason
what likely will happen is Association
bodies and uh protocols standards will
develop to try to make the association
system as Fair as possible and people
will want to use the regimes that are as
Fair as possible to bring it to a maybe
simpler context for many if one landlord
isting people out because they did
something didn’t like they looked at his
wife he just kicks him out for that pett
reasons it’ll be difficult for him to
get residence because he’ll be known as
a a petty T same thing will probably
happen in the case of web 3 if you have
some kind of Dow based freedom of
Association where people are voting
kicking people out if it’s known that a
given Community is very hostile to a
certain Behavior or person or individual
or is just capricious or unreliable then
the market will reward or punish them
accordingly I think in the current
environment the being prone to Witch
Hunt may be very desirable for many
people and they may like that kind of
chain or or solution or Association
and then there may be other associations
and chains and groups that are much more
strict in their criteria for this
Association or
Association okay um we’re about to run
out of time so we can just have one more
question thank you my colleagues hate me
when I say this let’s talk about dispute
prevention instead of dispute solution
thank
you yeah well and I think the freedom of
Association model is very good for
dispute
prevention if you know that
you if you’re deemed to be disruptive to
the community people will disassociate
with you you’re more likely to behave I
can give an example personal example I’m
very interested in free speech I’ve
heard that prosperous Free Speech rights
are comparable to that of the United
States United States has very strong
Free Speech protections you’re able to
do controversial things you could do an
art exhibit where you fly a Nazi flag
and a Jewish flag right next to each
other and do that on your balcony or
your front
lawn that might create that’s likely to
create a dispute or a nuisance to people
but it’s probably legally protected
speech and prosper I would think so if I
were a prosper president I would
probably test this out just as a matter
of academic interest and see what the
proms were in the case of morison with
freedom of
Association it is legally protected in
morison as well likely to do such an Art
Exhibit but it may create sufficient
controversy that they say you know Alex
your your speech is legally protected
but we just don’t think you’re a good
fit for the community and thus my
behavior is constrained because I want
to avoid getting into this potential
disassociation range even though I may
have the the law on my side so I found
that being in a community where this
Association is part of justice system
forces me to anticipate the the needs
and wants of my neighbors and those who
make this associate with me as opposed
to just understanding what’s legal and
not caring about whether or not people
are
happy all right um thank you so much for
our wonderful speakers um if can give
him a round of
applause um I think we’re going to move
on to the next um the next
topic thank you everyone I like to thank
Alex and Gabriel and um see you soon
thank
you thank you bye thank
you okay
so all right thank you so much so we’re
going to move on to use of legal rappers
for Dow uh so we have Alice charm Kyle
Smith and Bren Brendon Meer uh to come
on stage uh so I’m gonna have uh Tails
supporting me with bringing some of the
bean Banks and also Kara and I’ll give
you a bit of introduction of our
wonderful
speakers so I’m going to start talking
about Ali’s charm
member of the legal team of Market da
sces pursuing the mission for
sustainably growing the Mak protocol
modes by removing barriers between
centralized Workforce capital and work
also serves as a legal researcher and
operations member of Lex Punk Army
researching co-writing and editing legal
contact for crypto Community Alice has a
robust academic background including a
doctor of law from rooklyn law school
alongs sign studies in international
economics that was Letta hope I
pronouncing that correctly University
wer University yeah wer University so if
you give a round of applause
welcome and here we have Kyle is a legal
engineering expert from exim partner and
contributing member of lexow a
pioneering decentralized autonomous
Organization for jurists lawyers and
legal Engineers harnessing the potential
of web 3 for legal settlements prior to
his impactful roles in the blockchain
illegal tax base how co-founded c3b and
besta P showcasing his entrepreneurial
spirit and Innovative mindset holding a
doctor of law from Western University K
combines his deep legal expertise with a
Forward Thinking approach to regard
transformative change at the
intersection of Law and Technology
welcome
Kyle and then we have at the
end Brandon Meer as a computer scientist
also componential La Legal hacker
futurist at distinguished MIT media lab
alumnos of 98 one of the first 150
people in the world creating virtual
reality director and member of the
original Boston Virtual Reality Group
Brandon is also a member of the Wyoming
blockchain working groups for detal
identity act registered digal assets the
D supplement Act and the why Duna act so
welcome and Le this day for you
are we good okay I you to
that
sure context is everything at this point
in time we are about to can everybody
hear me at this point in time we are
about to have a revolution in way
THS
and I will illustrate a small little
example about this so Sabrina is a 12th
grade girl who has a science great
thanks that helps a lot Sabrina is a uh
12th grader who has a science experiment
given to a teacher who says go off and
solve a really hard problem like cancer
so she opens up the web web browser she
spins up a artificial intelligence agent
who writes for her after having control
through all of this data a small little
protocol a tiny little protocol which is
Ain to what we understand to be a few
thousand bites just like email right
smpp P
right but she does this not as a thin
protocol like eail as a fat protocol
one where value is
captured and it’s captured
into her
organization and that organization is a
doer so this is what we’re talking about
here we’re talking about new models of
working new models of organizations
forming and more importantly Loosely
collaborating to solve very large
challenges that can’t be done by one
institution or engineering one company
at a time Loosely be coup ecosystem of
emergent entities that are Loosely
collaborating to solve brand challenges
and when we figure this out and we’re
very
close we will change the way the world
operates I’m 100% certain
together I I know that you’ve got
something to say about legal ra but I
guess from our context is like you found
kind of as as a legal structure overing
right now right yeah and it’s it’s
really cool it’s been back by6 it’s like
the the premier legal structure for for
DS legal rapper for Dallas in the United
States right now um help
about uh well let’s maybe first uh
because that’s a different pattern so
maybe let’s get a little more detailed
on the rappers so yeah so there’s Duna
is one one rapper option what rappers
does maker use does maker use any rapper
maker apparently does not
use yeah
so it’s on the
table yeah I I mean so so that was a big
controversy and and first time how a
foundation moved away from it I’m
working with audience I’m working with
Powerhouse which is a the former
sustainability for unit of maker we’re
designing a model for the maker team
possibly use to exit a more
decentralized infrastructural
ecosystem uh and we wouldn’t be
reverting that to a foundation this case
but we’re currently here
scope model um this is because and and I
think this
is this is what I’m up on the stage talk
about uh my under my working theory for
Dows is is
that those amazing good PA structures
that have finally being made for uh for
for D these days like longw makers are
finally starting to to get created and
and they start to heed uh voices from
the industry but um there’s never going
to be oneid that we we really do have to
uh resist the urge to lemon
and anyone structure because
that although they have very
R legal definitions these days as they
in the real world are social books and I
use case like just presented Ron can
absolutely exist thousand one we could
build a
catalog cases with that but the one
Trend that we most likely noticed among
them is that not one use cases is going
to be the exact same as another which
means that at the very least you’re
going to have a set of models that are
going to work for for guys globally and
uh because the decentralized and and on
nature of of Cal culture and of these
social groups I we’ really be remiss to
say you the best way to do something is
to only focus and and kind of get very
direct fored into a singular
jurisdiction but across the world a lot
of jurisdictions are making themselves
available with different advantages
depending on what your go is
that and and what the point
of
your um so so when you say spoken wheel
that means that you’re thinking of
multiple entity types in your exactly
yeah so that’s what we for and and and I
we we have realized that
because the the operational
Loops that the maker is is going to be
using uh are going to involve several
different classes
of Association not just among people but
as well for example uh which would be
Advantage the a separate from each other
as nties and be uh in different
structures entirity so it’s it’s like
shoving everything into into one
generalized entity is is s optimal even
though it’s more meent and it’s it’s
actually anti- decentralization so like
not take full advantage of cheapening
founding costs across the world and and
then also again the the ability to to do
a little Arbitrage here and there for
for
purposes and so yeah so good one thing
is is jurisdiction that’s one reason to
have multiple entities and then another
one that I’m personally seeing is uh
there’s the traditional operations
separated from funding uh yeah that’s
been around for a bit but it it seems to
be even more important in in the Dow
space that has if if one’s Notting
multiple rappers to do that especially
uh for us funding in Latin
America again that’s because
jurisdiction but it’s also separation of
concerns operations is yeah I think
we’re happy to answer questions on that
that’s you kind of a little bit into the
weeds there uh what I am seeing emerging
though is another U uh that employment
is uh used to be in operations but there
are third priority providers like opis
uh that are taking um that are dealing
with that employment issue and and
that’s in part because of this
underlying problem uh that have many
many touch points uh that I think we’re
reconciling um uh globally is that law
has been built out um in a a where in in
an environmental proximity matters quite
a bit so jurisdictions are all based on
on land and for the most part uh
countries are contiguous um but now with
the internet at least as far as The
Human Experience is is nonlocal now so
um we can talk to someone else halfway
across the world um we”ll be doing it
at this right um and and it’s real time
for us so so that uh we that that’s the
big reconciliation that’s happening in
law and and one we have the phenomenons
that’s emerging is is that employ and
employment wrapper uh is seems to be
more and more of a good idea if we’re
doing um um separation of of concerns
multiple um rappers uh type of solution
uh so I guess Brandon I’m wondering what
you think the impact of Duna is going to
be I know we alluded before that a6z has
quite a bit of this so what do you think
the overall Market size is going to be a
Duna because you know one thing I was
thinking is that regardless of I
personally want to have a Duna I do
believe that a lot of the protocols I’ll
be engaged with are going to be do this
so it’s important to have a a sense of
how to have inner data with them
especially in this jurisdiction um and
and do this with boming right now so
having in out across nationally as well
so if you can just speak a little bit to
that well Kyle we’ll we’ll get into the
details of that and the one word
trillions
and to go with uh what Alice was saying
Alice was saying earlier uh I 100% agree
with the multi enth aspect of all this
we’ll talk more about that I think in
detail I do think it is important at
this jure to you know give a little more
background into you know the wrapping
why wrapping and how do we get here
right so there is there is a history to
this way more way way more than I have
to explain here but the short is that a
small number of
us on your hand were looking at how to
Peg Dows to Legal jurisdictions back
around
2017 from an opera operating
um uh standpoint operating agreement and
artif formation stand and the purpose of
all that was because we clearly
recognized that if you’re going to do
anything of sign ific in the real world
you’re going to have to contract right
you’re going to have to contract you’re
going to have to own things that are in
the physical world and all these men
so we end up speeding up the story a bit
and arrived at not the Duna in Wyoming
but we passed the first the digital
identity right but we also passed
the which was W’s first rapper which was
tremendous and it will still serve a
tremendous role in what’s to come I
believe it has a different purpose and
it hasn’t exactly taken off as it as it
will because it doesn’t solve everything
neither does the Duna but the Duna goes
a wrong way and we’ll uh hear about that
more in a minute but I don’t want to H
um so so I I think what she what she
touched on with the ter is is something
that I I I I’ve seen in crypto culture
taking for a lot where um you know you
have the Cod saw crowd who who very much
thinks that properly maintain
anonymity is is going to act as a like a
steel Shield against
liability and we’ve we’ve had jum scares
in the past that in in the Leal world
have have been heavily disting towards
that theory but more importantly it
really is the better play to to like
pick your Battlefield now um and
also like you know the p is about legal
rappers and and I think people don’t
realize that just because you’re able to
track just because you’re able to move
throughout the world and do things that
a legal entity is supposed to be able to
do for you without the legal entity I I
think there’s a huge disconnect in
people’s brains because of this lore of
anonymity where they’re like well we’re
able to do it anyway that must mean
we’re safe no they be like all of this
liability is ATT is attaching directly
to you and your your your Shield of
anonymity is is a hindrance best to
enforcement um mil Jen when we presented
the Duna the learning special the
collaboration um was he presented that
so St and and I thought it was striking
um because previously in il legal World
there had been some entertainment of of
like you know radical
unchain being able to subvert legal
consequence and and like that’s out the
door now so um really really appreciate
that we’re we’re bringing it forth and
that you
should inte strategy from from the
beginning in projects and
uh wrap your projects what would you
say uh yeah um if you want to go deep
dive on that that’s that YouTube Lexy
looked up the username sty and you can
deep dive on that discuss with
yeah it is um so I this might be a good
time to bring in the legal seal pattern
so yeah rappers are a different pattern
than a legal seal uh legal seals is a
something we’re innovating at EXN as
well as Lex uh so there hasn’t been that
much documenting on it but but um stay
tuned so I look at well there’s one way
to look at the graphers one and that is
that it’s the membrane of of a cell
uh and and so it it has to exclude
things but also has to bring in
nutrients and setion and that makes
sense when we think about centralizing
though that’s the point of a membrane
it’s to it’s to completely encircle the
cell you know which is definitely has
its its value and lots of cells out
there very successful and and so yeah so
Leal rappers are part of overall
landscape um but I also see that in
general and it’s not just with legal
rappers but it’s also
property law but we are doing if I I
look at the history of the common law
what happened with Ritz uh when we
finally kind of did away with rits where
uh to access the king’s
court when the needs of the people
expanded to what these rits would allow
lawyers have incredibly inventive to
figure out how to take a a matter and um
associate associated sufficiently with
the RIT so the existing legal language
Paradigm so that they could then move
forward with litigation uh a not is that
with in chancellory and Comm used to
have two separate concurrent corent
systems the Comm law and trans trans is
um more based on Church law and and Comm
is basic more King law and so yeah so
chancell had had more opportunities so
things like ports uh it built out
because there’s you know what happening
with the people de with it um um on a
Case by casee basis so a lot of case law
that that being a very um important part
of pal law that that actually comes from
the chancell uh so anyway um yeah so
that that’s where I see the problem with
with with rapers is so uh seals on the
other hand especially if you look at
privy seals the privy seals were
predated intellectual property before
the statute van uh in in England that
the uh the crown would uh put a steel on
so to sell te was a monopoly and there
would be Crown seal and even to this day
the crown still uh applies its its seal
to really high quality uh T Brands and
and such so um uh using seals and and
and regular people can use seals as well
uh but PR sales have that um special
capacity it’s it’s very it’s still
within the world of of signature
economies and if you would like an MI in
pen uh that we’ve got signature economy
on there because it’s such an important
part with What’s Happening Here on a on
a really basic computational and and
legal layer it’s this public private key
PA and so we can even think of the
private key as as a trade secret uh and
so but that’s how we’re signing that
that’s that we have that private so
we’re the only ones that have control
that through the trade secret right the
Privacy that’s basically what we’re
doing and so we if we’re using trade
secret we want to show that we’re have a
reasonable level of care that keep that
secret etc etc thinking about um the
speeds down the line uh but um yeah so
so the difference between the signature
if you sign a contract and if you do a
wax and seal on a contract is there’s
three parts to to to contract law and
this is common law not not transfer so
it’s very black better um uh live and
die by the sword kind of thing and so it
is or or you can think it as just very
very pure logic s of law um which is why
it’s really great for uh deterministic
and and moving it into automation un
block CH and when of smart contract and
such so anyway so the three parts are um
consensus add itm which means meeting in
the mind so the two parties actually
know what they’re both agreeing to um
privity which means it’s just the
parties that are agreeing to it there’s
not a third party that has also been um
has to fulfill its its uh obligations um
and its
promises um and and then the final one
is consideration and so yeah that’s kind
of the point smart contracts is they
narrow down turning machines to also
require High consideration and and so
now we’ve got ethereum and all these
other great systems of of um that’s how
we’ve centralize that’s we incentivize
these validations such is because we’re
in consideration of we’re dealing with
these um um writing when we’re doing
executions on the smart contracts so any
so that’s that’s really great and again
that’s the Baseline how we made a trust
lless system or system don’t need to
deal with trust incredibly powerful and
so what seals are though is they’re that
that exception where
usually common law does not want to
enforce formalities and such but with
seals if it does make an exception very
specific formality and then we can do
away with consideration and so now
instead of a um bilateral relationship
flow of of of resources we can then have
a unilateral uh flow resources so uh
that fills out a lot of the space that
um we ar filling out right now because
of that consideration requirement which
again is really good the seal should be
this extra kind of dance on top of a
normal
um public private key pair um
attestation and again if we bring it to
sovereignty areas like Prosper that can
do privy steals but we have even more
ability to to do some interesting stuff
so on a more concrete level what does
that mean related it to cells so let’s
think of a a cow as as a rer and and the
the seal is if
you and so we can have different objects
wrapped objects we just um put a seal on
there we put a around some kind of Mark
and then what we’re saying is we have an
obligation on that so if that cow runs
someone over well then we have to deal
with that in we’re the owner of that cow
also though the other side of that is
because we’re take taking on that proper
Duty uh we can then if somebody steals
our head we can say hey look I know
that’s M I can prove it it’s got It’s
Got a Brand there so and the SE would
exist completely un shap yeah yeah okay
so so
that’s I mean that’s that’s what I’m
talking about though we’re going to have
raer possibilities like the Duna but I
I’m I’m here to advocate for you know
stay Dynamic with your product work from
what they’re doing and don’t just check
a box because then you miss on on novel
applications and possibilities in this
space in this crypto space where I work
and Sh here for biotch but I’m cry bra
uh
bi
biotech projects could also take
advantage of a group this I
think do you have any thoughts on
yapping I don’t think you’re yapping not
at all and I I do think what Kyle was
discussing is extraordinarily important
and the thread that needs to be pulled
upon much more um you know as as we go
along in the future I think at this
point it might be good to shed a little
more light uh on on the Duna I think
that would be uh useful right so the the
Duna came about in Wyoming uh not by
accident I was involved in it while it
was in committee but it was put forth as
was mentioned by uh mil Jing from a6z
and David from
cow see and it was an effort that
took two and a half years and then Plus
on to actually BR up through wyom it was
no small effort the D in Duna means
distributed right the UNA means Uno
right the
Duna is an una with a d it’s a it’s a
stands for decentralized unincorporated
nonprofit
Association and what it does is kind of
a miracle from the United States
perspective so the way to think about
the Duna architecturally just broadly
generally speaking is you have the Duna
at the bottom and you have other
entities that are separate from that in
the ecosystem just as you do with
Microsoft right Microsoft is built on
uses and is built upon email as a
protocol and charges all this money for
their services such as Apple for crypted
email etc etc and you know there’s a
whole ecosystem which is built upon in
that case a thin protocol here we’re
talking about the D being a fat protocol
but to give you a little bit more
insight that’s what’s going on
architecturally uh from an
organizational standpoint but the Duna
specifically is engineed to solve us
issues
with a combination of things which are
related to taxes like abilities and
securities and how it does this is is
quite interesting so from the again I’m
not a
lawyer but the way it would work is the
Duna as uh an entity from the tax
perspective the purpose is to do
something called decentralized or I
should say progressive decentralization
right the problem we have in a lot of
these things from the United States
perspective regarding security is that
the SEC calls everything to security
right because of the how test
and entities that are BS you know making
things so the problem
with creating these protocols is that
initially they’re always centralized
they’re created by a few number of
developers and getting to that point of
decentralization is the goal but how do
you do that right so with the Duda from
a tax perspective it’s really
interesting and that would be along
these lines so the duno would actually
have Nexus or jurisdiction in this case
in Wyoming it would be pegged to Wyoming
to pay taxes at the federal level
because it can elect to be taxed as a
corporation at the federal level
and that does some amazing things
because it is at that point not being or
not taxed as a LLC so therefore you
don’t have to deal with the issues of K1
forms for members who you have no idea
who they are because they don’t have an
identity because they have a blockchain
address which is just some Anonymous
person right how do you send the K1 form
to somebody who you don’t even know who
they are so that problem is solved by
the do un to the
corporation um the liability
side there’s an explicit
part of the statute which says that the
Duna May hold real property but real
property is in ter in terms of you know
houses cars trucks uh lab space right
that’s where we’re all interested in
here and that act of having Thea be able
to hold real
property is part of what makes it along
with the aspect that it would get its
own file number from the secretary of
state A distinct entity and because it’s
a distinct entity from its
members that helps with the liability
part because the whole problem we have
with Dows is that in the United States
if you do anything with one or person
then you’re
automatically in a joint venture and the
liability is spread around
everybody so because the Duna is its own
state
legal thing that helps mitigate that
risk and then we come to our favorite
topic which is
Securities right and how is that solved
and how is that mitigated and it’s
mitigated by the aspect that the do
itself has to has to have 100 more 100
or more
members so right off the bat it is much
more decentralized because you can’t
have few
members but there’s other things that
are really really significant thing it
also cannot have directors or a
board so there’s no centralization
because there are no directors calling
the shots or board members but there
are administrators administrators to do
really really important things like file
taxes you know from the US perspective
and and that’s no small matter right why
did this originate from a 16 Z because
they realized that if they were
investing all this money in these Dows
which are all around the world just some
laughters there out there that they were
on the hook right because you know
they’re us firm investing in all these
Dows and and if the members and Founders
are us members at some point the IRS is
going to say well you know this is a US
entity we’re going to fall back with
Taxas right so they’re like oh this is a
problem we’ve invested all this money
and we’re like on the
hook so
you know what we’re really saying here
is we think we’ve come up with an
architecture to allow United States
Venture Taco to flow into all sorts of
entities in the United States and not
only just the United States but you know
any other entity that is
using um using the
protocol um those entities on top like I
described that would be Microsoft or
apple in this case um that are using the
protocol and votings
governance those entities you know some
of them might be in the United States
some of them will be here in prosor
right some of them will be some of them
will be anywhere in the EU
so these are the foundational things I
probably probably left out uh you know
quite a few but uh that’s generally
frame can I ask you yeah so Duna it
totally makes sense from that it’s great
that we’re going to have USC’s uh much
more working capital available for
this all move up three experience that’s
especially the P that’s great that’s
great do you think Prosper should have
its own Juna build do you think that
would be appropriate for prosper is this
a special problem because of the
complexity of the US and and it’s
fantastic why I mean youa for me it’s
really nice to it because W also did LLC
they invaded on that so right it’s it’s
been carrying we’re continuing to
specialize all that really good stuff
but well there you go LC that’s the main
thing that uman is is incorporating
using LLC so is this our feature as well
that he going to be all do this and then
what compared to C Foundation do you
think there’s how’s that when the pan
out is do going to repace the foundation
and then I guess charm if you want to
step in live if you know why maker um
exited this Foundation that will the
pr oh yeah so I I mean the make the
situation is is sure about an
interaction between culture and and uh
and legal
ideology maker doesn’t want to be
centralized and you know again that’s
another incentive for us to to use that
hen SP model uh it’s also generally just
better
strategy
uh cool thing to to probably note and
incorporate in your your strategy
development though is is what ideology
are you and your community working on to
because that definitely causes friction
if people are coming in you know we you
can have an optional structure that
um doesn’t appeal to people on on
irrational basis and irrational bases
are are unfortunately something that you
have to account for in a doubt because
of the egalitarian nature um with no
centralized body to manage
emotion people conect in in mtic fashion
that that leads to disaster we’ve seen
that time again and I think gab brought
up something about like the the Juno uh
decision 16 or something which which was
like an extremely e rational situation
but
like crypto
there were like minor legitimate
concerns but it really was an
ideological yes to answer your question
or I should say to answer your question
not exactly no so do not necessarily
think that prer needs to you know create
a bua line by line appropriately because
it’s designed specifically for us us
issues can it be you know part of it
should it be part of it or yeah sure
maybe but you know the I think it’s
pretty clear and I think also from what
Al is saying as well is that you know
we’re coming to an Era where if you’re
going to solve any kind of problem
you’re you’re really going to need to be
thinking about you know setting up
multiple kinds of entities multiple
kinds of GS and and having
each of them
um and operate in different
jurisdictions
and
basically create an architecture which
allows for these things to be Loosely
couped because from the United States
perspective pretty much anybody in the
United States in any way shape or form
is going to have to be Have and Have a
NEX in the United States so you know it
really becomes a question of like do you
want to play with us or not okay we’re
going to do this and we hope that you
know um we can export and participate in
in in all the other things that s in
other jurisdictions and you know the way
to think about this is there’s no reason
why you can’t have you know a dow set up
here and that Dow set up here is a
member of aduna which is also right
these days are stack right
yes yeah huge Point huge point there is
is that you can put a dow in a dow in a
down and another down
like not only can you move and and kind
of La a plane there’s there’s
dep do and and yeah it’s it’s like
honestly I I don’t agree with the
reasons why why maker uh is is
dissoluted deleted it its foundation but
the possibility it opens up now is
hugely beneficial to that ecosystem and
every other because we’re we’re going to
productize this we we’re going to make
this available to to other does as well
but but it’s going to be configurable
because we know from the ground up what
a vision is saying everybody has their
own special use case and everybody
should respond to that use case and
shouldn’t just run off the CLI because
the big dogs are doing X or it seems
like Y is the best Cho us really think
about how you’re wrapping it from the
ground of in
projects and there is a another framing
to think about all this and it’s a
matter of separation of
control what you want to do is you want
to have the the
Dow having a very small footprint
control this little tiny
protocol but those entities on
top you want to have those utilize the
Dow
and I should say utilize the protocol
rather and those entities should be
competing right and the conversation
about work right is it a good idea and
this is is also discussed by Miles
and is that a now itself wants to have a
very minimal footprint in terms of being
able to hire people and contract people
because that becomes a conflict of
interest right because in the sense that
if the Dow itself is Contracting all
these people to do a lot of the work
then it begins to become centralized
right because you’ve got all these
contractors working for you right but if
you instead do something like have the d
control the governance over small on the
protocol and then these other separate
entities that are building on top of it
are all competing for the next things to
build on top that next layer they’re
clearly competing with each other and
because of that they’re not directly
controlling what is made so you don’t
have that that control issue because one
entity might make it one way another
entity might make another vers a
different way and looks like Evolution
the one who does the best thing wins and
and then the is now going to say well
you know that person that entity making
that part of the protocol um you know
work for the Dow directly and it’s all
centralized and that’s clearly not the
case because maybe it didn’t go to that
you know maybe the protocol that’s built
on top the logic that’s built on top of
the protocol is not by one entity but by
another entity does that make sense it
does and I’m think I’m going to comment
on some like what I see on on the ground
with uh small entities with Dows and
often times that is really just an
operating system uh uh early stage
operating system so maybe total
operating system for running an entity
so it’s it’s got a treasury and it’s
it’s got a um a uh uh um a proposal
system so uh like a like uh hold Forum
that type of and and that’s it so Cali
for instance cali. you can check that
one out that house is well and so in
that narrative it goes s and DS so so
they hit a button and then they get this
kind of Suite of tools and and and right
now again it’s it’s it’s a portal
operating system Metal X Cables on there
he’s he’s building out maybe that
generation will be more proper operating
systems um but anyway there’s not enough
tools yet the proper system but yeah
that’s what it is so then Kelly that
recognized what wolf said before were
the moment you get financials in there
that’s when you really definitely need
to be thinking about uh having a legal
entity uh and so so yes that’s what
Kelly does is it’s well since you’re
spinning out one of the tools is a safe
basically diagnosis safe um then and
when you spin it up it’s a legal rapper
what what the Kelly team found and
that’s open source uh off J W out so
it’s public kind of thing what they
found is they weren’t getting a lot of
adoption because people didn’t
necessarily want to use Kelly they
wanted to use St G house which is
another M3 framework uh so then they
made rapper uh w a p r and um that one
it’s just te and so that’s what you do
you have that the Dow you represent that
this this Dow is it’s rapid entity but
entity that the contains in it so really
all this Library science in some sense
uh if you go here his operating system
and every time there operating system it
also grity and then so bringing back in
legal seals well maybe spin up something
you don’t want that to be the legal
enemy you want to be owned by legal
entity as I talking before how Dows can
have Dows within them uh and and that
fits much more with the reive nature of
of comp uh computer science and so then
there is also uh we haven’t gone into
other things like series and we were
chatting before about series and and
actually I was thinking yeah series LLC
and I was thinking of it much more like
JavaScript prototype and then instances
in each instance of the child but now
you you have deep knowledge in that so
now thinking well we should really draft
some legislation of how I was kind of
envisioning it to reconcile with the
more computer patterns so a cross type
series LLC so what’s the point there
that that’s potentially new Lial rapper
down the road uh but there’s a lot of
we’re just really really early here
still and and yeah so for me what I’m
focused on even on just a face my
patterns sometimes the Dow should be
wrapped sometimes the Dow wants to own
another Dow and then the appropriate
thing is to to seal it um or that’s what
proposing
next I think that our final moment Jerry
maybe want to have like a Snappy last
word yeah the final moment is we need to
get some um pharmaceutical money and
Venture funding in here to make some
protocols and give some leg legitimacy
to the whole web 3 and new internet and
new economies that we’re creating and
all of these new models for circular
economies agreed and my as word would be
stay Smart Stay creative and W it your
way yeah mine is that I I think we’re
still in the Divergent stage quite a bit
it’s really early and so let’s uh do
that and then um prepare for the
convergence stage so we’re at a breath
work we’re breathing in now and then
we’ll breathe out or
anyway there you
go thank you so so
much all right um so I’m going to invite
the next set of speakers uh the next
topic is going to be asset
organization get move away from from the
steps so who can please welcome remot
Mason and
Daniel so real quick introductions
Ramona um EX in partner she brings her
expertise to the Forefront of the
centralized finance and legal
engineering she also is the founder and
managing director of J block which
offers Consulting and business services
Ramona is dedicated to driving
Innovation and facilitating growth in
the blockchain space additionally she
plays a pivotal role as a co- founder
and digital assets consultant at
Providence contributing her wealth of
knowledge to strategic initiatives with
the master’s degrees in European law and
business law from
University
um would you like to pronounce the
name so all right I’m so sorry I cannot
pronounce that one
um
uh uh
doent with technological press
positioning herself as a key figure in
shaping the future of blockchain and the
usful assets ecosystem
welcome already introduce so welcome to
the stage thank you so much and Danielle
Lea serves as a lawyer public notary and
also Professor Danelle is a legal
advisor in redesign of financial
products fintech project for an inv
customer Investments Banking and finance
transaction planning and structuring of
financing and projects Daniel is a
partner at Tores legal El Salvador and
holds a master’s degree in digital
advocacy and new technologies from
Salamanca University so welcome all of
you uh amazing speakers and I’ll leave
the floor to you thank you so
much thank
you off
okay thank you very much um so I’m
really happy to be part of this panel on
asset oranization let’s bring it down to
earth people because we’ve been talking
a lot about like pure cyber space issues
and then doubt and then legal rappers
and all sorts of legal fictions and and
um I want to bring it down to Earth
because the real value of this
technology is actually it’s how it’s
going to change things here where we
actually actually are living um so
tokenization uh can be seen as purely
Financial playing around with money
making Capital markets even bigger or it
can be seen as a as a technology which
will Empower and transform um the way uh
things are in for real businesses for
real people in the real world uh which
one do you want to have uh personally I
vote for the second one obviously so
this why I’m delighted to be on this
panel with Mason and Daniel because they
have real experience in real estate
oranization real estate oranization and
also other types of tokenization is
really important the way I started to
look at this so I used to work in asset
back securitization um which is a fancy
way to say that we to we talk like we
securitize a stream of income uh from
businesses then we sell it to the
capital markets which seems excellent
right that’s like a way to unlock get
present money for future streams of
income amazing right those are asset and
this is how Capal Market work
tokenization can make that more
efficient more
transparent um more trustworthy so
that’s all good but then I started
thinking like okay but is there another
way we can go about it perhaps
tokenization can bring about other
changes at the more fundamental level at
the level of the business model at the
level of like how people can make it
work business models have evolved in
certain ways because of the requirements
and the restrictions what was available
now we are in the time of unprecedented
freedom and with technology that allows
us to design the systems we want to have
and this is the key feature that I see
for the organization I want to pass it
on to you Daniel first to talk about
what El salvator is doing uh in this
space this field it’s really exciting
and really happy to be here with you
thank you Rona well basically elor is
trying to become a a world technological
Hub and part of the efforts actually
it’s h drafting all the legal framework
we have a digital agenda for 20 2020 to
2030 that is actually going to draft all
the changes that are necessary in order
to implement all the transformation or
digital transformation that is needed
within the country which
includes uh ID that it’s going to be a
token for every citizen um drafting the
digital asset uh law issuance law that
actually enables organization the
Bitcoin law that makes Bitcoin as a
little Thunder and among other uh
regulatory Frameworks that are needed in
order to implement this change so
basically the digital law enables uh
real world asset terization and that’s
the main focus of the law that enables
three three kinds of toiz that Equity or
ownership and future income station so
basically this law it’s drafted in order
to give people the power to raise money
to own fractional property of shares of
company is or even real estate and give
you all the framework to enable that but
the the main legal concern or the main
legal um paradig to
actually uh become this happen is to
create the link or the bond to
actually tipe the token or the digital
asset to the real word
so it’s it makes you be creative with
the legal structur that you are going to
implement if you’re are going to put the
asset into a a company and then uh link
each of the shares to each of the tokens
you can uh do a trust and within the
trust administrate the real estate and
then all the trustees are going to be uh
owners of one portion of of the of the
trust and then and and therefore to the
to the to the property and among other
ways actually a collateral AG those
figures that you tend to see in
complicated Financial transactions are
going are being part of the usual uh
framework that you have to use in order
to actually become this happen and to
this day we have advice the two public
offerings in C of of the clet insurances
and there are about five or six if you
put the other private insurances that
gives the people the power to get uh
funds or to receive funds in a more
efficient uh cost effective way if you
compare this kind of raising Capital
with uh the traditional one you will
have to take around 6 to eight months in
the best case scenario to raise the
funds and it’s going to cost you
around 400 ,000 or 500,000 and this uh
vehicle can can be made in two two
through four months and it can cost you
like a 10th of the of the traditional
[Music]
cost I already got one thank you um
that’s a great recitation I mean I think
that what’s uh important to note is how
we’ve proven how uh cost effective this
technology is we have buying from people
on the economic side but I think that
one thing that we should uh really keep
in mind as we build out these Solutions
is the importance of legal significance
when in the context of uh digital
Primitives right because this could be a
way that we end up bootstrapping a lot
of the new world that we’re trying to
build here um one of the projects that I
worked on uh during a hackathon was an
attempt to tokenize real estate legal
Primitives and I call them legal
Primitives because they in and of
themselves do not have any legal
significance other than what they could
be right so what we basically came up
with was an idea to tokenize a parcel of
property but have that be
chronologically updated based upon API
call points on public record systems
this in and of itself does not make it a
title or representing a property in a
legal sense but when you get in the
context of a court system you can
actually have the actual argument that
this is sufficient to represent
someone’s interest or potentially if
you’re a party that has an interest in
the property you could potentially
memorialize that interest in conjunction
with that legal primitive it’s almost
like a place marker in the digital
sphere of
things and uh that actually played out
really well I’m going to talk about
another project uh this one is uh
currently uh being tested in several
different port systems it’s uh called
block serve uh Block serve. tech if you
guys want to go and check it out it’s a
uh method that we’ve successfully
implemented to be able to serve uh
service of process legal service of
process on blockchain addresses now
there’s been a lot of talk I actually
was uh positive the question which is
better tokenization or attestation I
think in this kind of a case when you
have a u the necessary requirements of a
legal document a piece of paper that has
to be read by a court system
tokenization has to be the the option
because uh you actually have to tether
it back to something that’s in a
pre-existing and frankly a very
at least pursue the nominal right to
claim assets back from people or for
people that have been scammed by people
all across the world we don’t know the
real names but we do know that they have
blockchain addresses and we have
forensics and we can finally track these
people down eventually and hopefully get
the money back to the people that have
been increasingly been effective but
that’s a good use of tokenization that I
think Blends the Gap really well between
this efficiency that we talk about our
Global uh world that we have to deal
with now with um and uh using it
effectively against people that would
like to use this technology as a sword
uh against innocent people and a shield
uh in the context of the pseudo
anonymity that we often refer
to excellent thank you so much now that
we have the audience in Tred hopefully
uh by the real applications and like
tangibility of this uh tokenization
issue what is actually tokenization
let’s let’s let’s take a moment and
think about it like really think about
it um I Was preparing the pitch for
tomorrow the subject has changed but I
was looking into monetary theories and
um starting with iring Fisher’s um you
know like Baseline that led to monism
and essentially um like I I was
intrigued by his definition of of of
wealth and property to be honest I was
really intrigued by the definition
because it was more tangible that any
economic School I’ve seen and like I I
was caught in in terms of okay but but
what does it mean to own something what
does property actually mean and it like
in his definition was property um was
was having the right to the benefit
right to the benefit and then it was it
was represented by certain things which
tokens could could could be represented
at property right so essentially um it’s
it’s more of our legal definitions that
need to be potentially re thought in the
in the line of the technology but the
Baseline it does not change the
principle does not change so tokens are
a representation of value right and they
can be a representation of a
value deriving from a real tangible
asset in the real world a person right
if if those are service tokens or like
we can imagine that as well like giving
rights to services or a representation
of a right deriving from a movable asset
in the real world out of which money is
a
form um so so so really tokenization
allows almost every wealth in the world
that we can envisage to become more
fluid to circulate faster and to become
almost like money and this is a very
very important piece because it unlocks
um a lot of unintended effect at the
system level and I’m curious about what
this this sort of increased liquidity
that will arise from increasing
tokenization and and what will be the
impact in the
effect it’s uh interesting you brought
up uh the concept of this being like
money in a lot of ways um I wrote my
thesis on uh crypto and international
monetary policy back in law school and
basically our I argued for the right uh
that for everyone to be able to choose
whichever money they think makes the
most sense for them uh had a lot of
heavy weigh in from the Austrian e
economists on that one but um it’s
uh it’s it’s going to be really
interesting apologize I think I for
point so I’ll defer to you at this so
basically I think your point is very
interesting um I think transferring the
property ownership or something uh
without barriers without all the legal
legal list that is needed in these ways
is actually uh a good thing that
blockchain technology brings and I don’t
think that you have to have uh General
legal framework in order to perform teiz
that uh the more that the systems
interconnect themselves uh enables
people from all over the world to invest
in any specific product or any specific
company or any or or to own lands I mean
if you want to have a piece of prosper
and prosper is tokenized you could have
a piece if you want and I mean why does
it matter if you are from London or you
are from El Salvador you are from the US
if you have the money you want to invest
in it and you perform all the kyc that
it’s like the common standard of the
world at this point and you pass it you
should be able to invest or to diversify
your product your business your I mean
your your income in order to own what
you really want to own and not be uh
lock down to a country or to a specific
regulation I think blockchain technology
is going to be the fut is the future and
it’s now but in order to be implemented
World while without any barriers uh you
need a regulatory framework like the
sorian one that give trust into the
process more than the trust that the
ones that we actually understand the
technology knows that the technology
brings itself itself and H get ad option
in order to in a nearby future you don’t
need any law in in actually in order to
actually perform ACH conization that
it’s going to be self-regulated and you
don’t need a third party that actually
authorize the tation likeor that in the
meanwhile I think regulation is a good
point of view to get certainty to each
organization made at least in on salador
and allows allows to invest from any
part of the of the world if the
jurisdiction is not specifically
prohibited that’s better um
so I just remembered my point um I think
that uh it’s it’s uh worth mentioning
how powerful a legal argument is in the
context of uh one an individual wants to
represent their interests so that kind
of tethers back to the concept of this
being money and being a version of money
that people want to use I think that you
could take that even further and say if
there’s an argument to be made that this
type of representation of an interest is
more effective then you have a duty to
make that argu from court or under a
regulatory regime to be able to uh show
a better way kind of in a a granular
type of
federalism uh if uh if we have more
people making those arguments then I
think we’ll actually get some people
listening to what it is that we’re
trying to do um so that’s my point I
suppose no it’s an excellent point and
actually it brought to mind your prompt
from earlier about the mobility of legal
engineers and how can we ensure free
movement well there’s no other like
there’s no better way of of ensuring
free movement of people than enabling
them to pre moove their wealth around
right um so so so tokenization will
hopefully contribute to that it it
brings to mind that um The Wealth of
Nations will actually become the wealth
of the world and I wanted to um give
that prompt back to you and see like
what comes up what resonates
well I think that’s what we’re all
shooting for especially with these
Network States it’s uh reminds me a lot
of uh the city states like Venice of uh
back in the day the uh amount of
economic growth that happened and
artistic growth frankly that happened as
a result of these uh granular artist
driven uh creative types uh allowed a
lot more experimentation and a lot more
creative outcomes for every body which I
think benefited Humanity a lot further
than the last few uh hundred years
before
that one thing that uh kind of strikes
me as a parallel to is um I don’t know
how many of you follow the um French
Wars of uh of religion or uh any of that
sort of thing but as a result of some
unfortunate uh policy decisions that
were made uh in France at the time of
the Reformation a lot of their talented
people got kicked out and we’re kind of
seeing a lot of that happen especially
with regard to developers uh especially
open source developers that want nothing
better than to free people but
unfortunately if you’re the person that
uh unbuttons the shackles that puts a
Target on your back in a lot of cases uh
so these Network States I think like
certainly in the case of that situation
the wars of religion where the Exodus
LED them to countries that saying you
have a bunch of smart people you don’t
want okay we’ll take them
and they were a lot better off for it
you saw great growth in uh Germany at
the time in Holland in the UK and a lot
of them ultimately made it to the United
States and built up a culture of hard
work and creative problem solving that
was hamstrung by the previous
administration and I think that uh we’re
kind of establishing safe havens for
those types of people the ones that are
pro- humanity and the ones that uh
actually want to solve the problems and
not just use put her own
game I I agree with everything that you
said and actually I think uh this kind
of uh technology actually brings the or
or gives people the the freedom in
actually in order to actually take
everything that actually value for them
and everything that they own even real
estate and go away and move and look for
a safe heaven you mentioned in order to
be free and feel good because the last
goal that every everyone has is actually
to feel free to feel good and actually
to enjoy life and enjoy what doing what
you want and being uh something
important and giving back something
important to the
people thank you for that um it it it’s
hard to anticipate what will happen
because there’s so much complexity right
but if you were to look at what happened
in El Salvador in recent years and the
adoption of the technology or or more
generally if you’re familiar with other
countries in nor America what would you
say and then if I could ask the same
question for Mason for the United States
in North America um we’re keeping Europe
out I could speak about Europe after you
answer
[Music]
I
think I I think uh actually the reason
uh
political U movements that that had
happened in alab in the last six years
have bring a lot of good things to to to
the country a lot of uh Tech involved
into the government making everything
faster from uh medical appointments to
Public Services actually so in Latin
America it’s very common that most of
the services you have to go to a public
offer office and and and be there two
three hours you’re wasting your time and
people is inefficient and they’re in a
bad mood and they actually even throw
you the things and no you didn’t bring
these copies so you have to go to to
come back later on and Technology no and
modernizing the the the whole
governmental infrastructure has been a
big achievement from this government um
and bringing bringing investment uh
Bitcoin as a legal Thunder have bring a
lot of investment have put
put in uh in the word
eye for if you see it from the point of
the IMF maybe the ground ground point of
view if you see it from the people that
believe in Bitcoin in understand Bitcoin
and the V of Bitcoin in the right point
of view the certain thing is is becoming
a world known country and that’s
important for us because we I think
sorians are great people
and being at the eye of the wall brings
you a lot of opportunity to shown your
values and that’s it’s actually
happening a lot of
talal actually Developers freance that
actually they they do a a great job and
they are not locked down in alador they
work for uh European
companies American companies and all
over the world being paid better than
they actually could imagine in on Sor
that’s great and having the digital
assets for the other point of view then
organization enables salvadorians to
project their products to the world and
I I would like to talk about one
specific project that we just uh got the
authorization to do the public offering
and it’s going to be available in b x in
May 13 actually and it’s about a hotel
that is from a
Salvadorian
U an expat that lived a lot of a lot of
a lot of time in Philippines and when
they he was actually invited by the last
government
to invest in the country so he signed a
contract for 30 years to build to to
build the airport hotel that was amazing
in all the infrastructure and everything
was done when he is started going to the
banks because no one knew him uh in in a
their project Were Far Away Etc no one
bring him money no one give a single
credit to his project so he
uh he actually found opportunity to
bring the investment through atation
because the world see the project the
people in the world see the project and
it’s actually a good project but not
being known and you having all the
financials right not must not be a
process that cuts you the your wings and
that’s what actually I think is
happening in salador with that
organizations and with all the tech that
it’s bringing people their time back
from the governmental uh processes and
actually is becoming the government more
efficient and with more efficiency to
reduce the cost and put the money where
is important and is bringing people
Solutions in in order to actually use
their time
efficiently
so got it so I think that uh a lot of uh
initiatives aren’t thinking locally
enough when it comes to the United
States one of the uh most powerful
structural considerations of the
government structure in the United
States is the concept of
federalism where you’re looking at
the where you’re looking at different uh
states in the Union as uh
experimentation hubs we saw this with
the Duna law and uh we’re seeing it with
a bunch of different other types of
entities that uh you know are able to
wrap into Dows and allow us to
decentralize work in a more effective
way and really in the era of uh remote
first work uh really redefine what that
can look like and how it can help
improve the lives of everybody around us
the uh I think that the uh biggest
takeaway especially for our purposes
here is that we need to start thinking
about how can we use the opportunity of
the areas uh outside of the main hubs in
the United States to our
advantage I think that there are some
people in here who have read the article
about U the decline of of St Louis for
example they had the AT&T tower there
that used to be a glimmering beacon of
that City that uh unfortunately uh
cratered down in value from like I think
it was like 200 million or something
down to 3.5 million
recently and as results all of these
different pillars of community in these
downtown hubs which Grand as they were
back in the day are starting to lose
influence I think that uh tokenization
allows us to really reconsider our
relationships with these downtown hubs
uh especially in light of our recent
reevaluation of what it means to provide
public goods uh I myself participated in
a uh uh a legal clinic in the city of De
Moine that uh allows students FLW
students to practice as attorneys as
long as they have an attorney signature
back in the work that they do and have
it be reviewed by them I think if you
apply that similar kind of concept you
have a lot of people that are talented
that need a chance to uh build up on
their experience get a real Prospect of
economic return that uh frankly just
don’t have the money or the trust fund
to bootstrap a move out to New York or
or San Francisco to try to network with
people like that and uh they still want
to do good work but the work isn’t there
anymore and I think that our remote
first approach could really make an
argument for the revitalization of the
local nexuses of uh of the United States
and uh you know with that kind of
approach on tokenization at the local
level I think that you could really make
the argument that local laws laws could
change too uh and in that way federalism
can kind of push out these bad policies
that we’re seeing uh from the likes of
Elizabeth war and Gary gendler so
thank you for that um we still have a
way to go so don’t don’t don’t rush and
I I’ve come to the more critical
question I think um of of the
tangibility and the reality of Bringing
Down to Earth but before so if I
summarize the the conclusion so far
tokenization has the potential to unlock
wealth at the global level and
facilitate free movement it has the
power to it has the potential to empower
people um that that are driven and motiv
ated and like uh want to show up and and
do the work and build a better world and
also um maybe it will smooth out certain
imbalances that have been created
because uh it allows for
localization local projects to to
actually um to actually benefit from
from um a larger wider perspective to
bring it back down to what is the uh a
problem still to solve real world asset
organization cannot work on
the cannot work on the same Principle as
as not your keys not your not your
points right it’s it’s just impossible
to have that for real world asset
oranization to work so what are some of
the solutions that you’ve seen um that
would enable would enable that that
stability that security of of true
property linked to real world assets um
and on the blockchain transactions with
cryptographic signatures and private
quets and how would you say that in this
hope well uh to kind of uh go back to an
example that I made about that AT&T
tower in St Louis if you have local
communities that are committed to uh
utilizing a space more efficiently you
could actually uh I don’t know utilize
the idea of public goods to an extreme
if the city isn’t going to find a tenant
for a building like that and they don’t
want to condemn the building and uh they
don’t have the money to tear it down as
I’ve seen in a lot of
places what uh you can do is have the
city manage it we saw this in De Moine
too when a few of the big insurance
companies moved out uh the city owns it
but the city can work with these local
groups to kind of uh break up the
different usable spaces in that in that
area and uh give them a heavily
subsidized rental rate which they can
potentially offset with provision of
services at a further discounted rate uh
that’s just one idea I’ve had but I’ll
defer to you because um there’s a lot of
innovation going on in your
jurisdiction thank you well um the the
the biggest issue regarding tokenizing
real word asset I think it will be to to
actually find the bond and actually try
to keep not
traceable everything I mean not like
identify each person because that’s not
something that actually
matters until the the the person or the
public key actually is linked to
something illegal or he’s doing
something wrong so I think two CA two
use cases that are actually interesting
is usdc and usdt that are un stable coin
but I mean it’s the same technology and
no one is gonna require you and uh I
mean in a in a
decentralized uh business
model uh no one is going to require you
an ID to to to buy $100 of usdc or $100
of usdt but if your public address is
actually linked to some legal illegal
activity or some ongoing investigation
of international
cries you can burn uh or Club out the
token and that’s going to be hard in
order to what to do with the boring
tokens and how to redistribute the the
ownership or how is everything going to
be back but uh the or who is going to be
the owner of those tokens that that work
clob but I mean I think you should
find a middle point where
uh anony Anonymous uh it’s okay but in
order to track uh Anonymous activity to
enforce
something so I am based in Cayman Island
and Cayman Island despite uh popular
culture is one of the most uh sort of
compliant jurisdictions right now I’ve
never done so much compliance in my life
um real estate agents are regulate
um and have to do Laing controlled and
checks and sanctions controlled and
checks and then real estate developers
are also regulated and they’re subjected
to the same obligations so when I uh
when I work with the developers to
develop like to to to make the smart
contract for the real estate
tokenization project and promoting um
one of the issues I had is that we had
to be build in all these controls and
like wheless thing mechanisms to make
sure that we knew who the token
purchasers were and etc etc and then
that allows um of course for clawback to
happen that allows for uh key retrieval
or reissu tokens to happen so that
secures however it doesn’t solve the
problem of maintaining that Anonymous
free flow um in certain in certain areas
and that’s what what the public actually
wants right this is one of the
difficulties for adoption and um one way
to go around that would be well not to
go around that to solve that problem
would be to uh like understand that
there there there’s several there’s
several economic rights that could be
built within the tokens which are
different and then make the distinction
between the um property rights like
ownership rights versus you know other
economic benefits or other coins
tracking or giving or which could be
redeemed in exchange for one of the best
use cases for for Real Estate
organization I thought was um time Shar
um so this is some like something I’ve
been like working on but but especially
important is to understand how the real
Industries work and this is um something
I feel it’s been lacking in the crypto
like crypto has been helped like it’s
own bubble like if we build it they will
come and it’s not really happening so so
to to challenge you on um to like to
challenge you on what you said like do
you like what are the business owners
saying what are the businesses you’ve
worked with that that went to
oranization you gave that very good
example of the um you know expat
returned expat um that that brought with
him the no common expertise but didn’t
have enough reputation to go banking
system in Salvador what are some of the
other use cases and then I think we need
to wrap out um so with that I will also
ask for the final quote from both of you
okay so basically I
mean uh many uh businessmen or
women actually once the the that the
organization or the public offering
moves fast as business happens you know
I mean business is extremely fast and
and transactions goes all the day like
at the speed of Life nevertheless I
think reolution is important in natural
in order to prevent Bad actors to use
the the technology to do for example
money laundry I mean you have to find
the middle point and the middle point
for me and it’s not I mean if you go to
G standard you have to put a uh a a code
board in each token and the code board
is going to Mark who is the owner and
which is the ID and the phone number and
the dealing and everything and it’s
going to be hard in in order to
implement in this kind of technology in
this ecosystem because it’s not the
nature of it the nature is to be
anonymous so the middle point I think it
will be the the the system of white list
that you mentioned that it’s uh not
necessarily you have to known who is
behind the the address but when an
investigation is go it’s ongoing and
someone
actually detects that the public address
if linked to an illegal activity like
proven and you have enough proof to put
it in the white in the in the black list
so gives you the opportunity to club the
club back the token Frozen it and put it
into a for example damage fund or uh
donation fund and be able to do
something with that
token Community because I think it’s
pretty important and and this is where
the virus is hard to to Define where you
can uh establish a middle point where
you’re going to free the people and have
all the venues of the technology and how
to prevent that bad actors use the
technology for bad things so if you find
that barrier I mean I I don’t have
actually the answer I think it’s
something
being
built at this time so you don’t I don’t
think anyone could have the answer but I
think that the answer should be to be
hard enough to prevent Bad actors to go
into the system and be soft enough to
give freedom to the people that is
inside of the
system I think I’m just going to weigh
in on um the real estate tokenization
theories that we’ve kind of discussed a
little bit to
um I think that uh as we talk about
legal significance with legal Primitives
and uh making it just uh inconceivable
that you wouldn’t want to use the
technology we’re building because I
think that’s what we’re really shooting
for is to the exclusion of earlier
systems and more inefficient systems
what you want to do is be able to put
these legal Primitives in the best
possible position to attain legal
significance in uh my uh home
jurisdiction of Iowa uh state in the
middle of the middle of the United
States uh we have a very old very lawyer
Centric method of verifying the state of
real property it’s uh where rather than
purchasing Title Insurance you uh have
an attorney go through the chain of
title and provide a title opinion about
the state of interests with relation to
that property and that results in have
us having some of the cleanest titles in
the country but uh we’re the last state
in the Union that still does it this way
it’s uh actually quite a bit cheaper
than uh than uh insurance as well but uh
that’s not to say we don’t have
insurance but we do have it as a public
good right any attorney that provides a
uh opinion as to the state of real of of
real property in the state has to be
backed by the uh publicly funded Iowa
title guarantee program that uh ensures
against issues with u any any opinions
or any property considerations that
didn’t come up in the original title
search I think that we should be
thinking in terms of that if we tokenize
something and we have the means to be
able to attest to the legal significance
of a primitive we should also be
thinking about how can we protect people
if we get it wrong and uh think about it
in terms of public goods so I guess uh
my final quote would probably be we’re
uh we’re past the uh the age of economic
significance I think in terms of what
we’re trying to build we’ve seen how
annoying that can get uh what I want us
to be concerned with is legal
significance because that isn’t quite as
prone to booms and busts as economic
significance we need to be building
something that’s uh meant to last as
long as we possibly can so that we can
provide a stable future for
people I love that quote um at xn we um
we are building the future so so that’s
that’s equally our philosophy um and my
final quote for to conclude this panel
um about asset tokenization is that we
have to be really careful when we’re
doing the design of these tokens and we
have to be really careful about how we
are building these models and what Genie
we are getting out of the box because
there will be unintended
consequences complexity um always has
unintended consequences as as diligent
as we may be as hard as we may work we
we we are limited and and and our
knowledge is limited and there will
always be unintended consequences so
building redundancies like earlier on um
I think Nick danas was talking about um
how good it was that um Carlos P had
build all these redundancies into
prosper and I think that’s true also for
playing with real estate asset
oranization what are the redundancies we
can build into the system in our legal
model so that if if something fails we
have a back op system to rely on right
thank you so much for your contribution
today it was amazing to be with you on
this panel thank
you thank you so much to the speakers um
so we’re going to go on a 10-minute
break it’s uh about 4:30 so we’ll be
back here at 4:40 that’s guys there
treasure leg there’s coffee there’s
water flavored water as well uh that’s
on the cooler so we’ll be back here 4
you can be here slightly before that’ll
be great make sure we start time
I love your outfit
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all right everyone we’re going to get
started so if you want to take a seat
that’s
okay think for missing someone too
[Music]
yeah yeah there we go
okay okay so we’re going to get started
in the next 30 seconds so if you want to
take a seat um
all right if you can hear me can you
clap
once can you clap twice can you clap
three times and welcome the speakers to
the stage thank you so much for being
here welcome back from the Break um
we’re going to open the floor for the
panel on technical tendencies in library
Sciences so I’m going to introduce our
wonderful speakers for this panel as we
have Anson Parker a member of lexow
collaborates with legal engineering
professionals to bridge the gap between
traditional legal Frameworks and
emerging Technologies facilitated the
integration of cod coded agreements into
mainstream legal practice outside of
their role in legal Tech Anon brings
their Tech technical expertise to the
Forefront as tech support at the
University of Virginia while also
indulging their passion for technology
as a geek at rad lab Productions Love
the name through their multi faet
contributions Anson is dedicated to
shaping the future of Law and Technology
[Applause]
welcome uh then we have Joseph mckin
Joseph mckin is a Visionary leader at
the four front of digital economic
Innovation currently serving as the CEO
of
C katawa katawa digal economic zone as a
co author of funding startup societies a
step-by-step guy Joseph shares that his
expertise in creating sustainable and
thriving startup ecosystems he also
serves as a publisher of the Journal of
special jurisdictions contributing to
the discourse on governance and economic
development in addition Joseph holds the
position of managing director at The
Institute of competitive governance
where he spearheads initiatives to
promote competitiveness and innovation
in governance models with a commitment
to fostering collaboration and
Innovation Joseph serves as a board
member at Newan Network Inc and as the
president of startup Society Foundation
driving positive change and progress in
economic and governance governance
spheres welcome Joseph
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and we have Brandon who we already I’m
not going to give another introduction
because we already know you but welcome
again to the to the
stage okay
[Music]
so the Flor is
yours probably go to
our first so I want to thank uh everyone
here so much for being here uh I’ve been
to a lot of conferences and no one has
ever asked about Library Sciences at a
blockchain conference and uh I am so
grateful that you have because I think
that libraries have a lot to offer in
this community uh traditionally of
course what we do is we organize data
and when I look at blockchain you know
we’ve got a ton of linked data but it’s
pretty horribly organized for the most
part right I mean everybody’s coming up
doing their own thing and there aren’t a
lot of uh standards in how things were
organized and by standards you know how
many people have heard of
Wikipedia much right I mean yeah who has
heard of Wiki
data not big FS right so when we’re
talking about Wiki data we’re talking
about linked data and ways to
contextualize information so you know
when you’re talking about a law you can
say well okay it’s a law in Honduras
it’s a law and the special economics and
we can start looking at how different
entities might coordinate because
they’re all Linked In this single
repository right wiy data gives us that
product and it’s just linked data and
that’s very much what blockchain is
about it’s a linked data ecosystem but
it’s really not being leveraged very
much these days and I think there are a
tremendous amount of opportunities and I
can’t wait for FKS to hear what Joseph
mckenny is doing in the special
economics Z because I think that’s one
of the most Innovative uh products I’ve
heard of in the United States in quite a
while uh but really what I want to get
at is that there are tools already out
there and if you look at Wiki data some
of the products that come out of there
are like open corporate or open
sanctions and so these are tools that
help all of the businesses that are
being created in one repository and so
you can start imagining what that would
do in terms of coordinating businesso
business relationships and open
sanctions is similar if looking at all
the people who are all on all of these
boards on all of these corporations and
you can start imagining simplifying tax
returns or something like that by
looking at by knowing which boards and
which taxes you owe for which
corporations and so those are the kinds
of opportunities that we’re looking to
facilitate to make blockchain useful for
regular people because for the most part
it it’s a pretty abstract product and
it’s not really approachable uh in
general for regular people so that’s
what I wanted to lead with is that
libraries we’re we’re we’re here to help
you
uh for
sure you know it’s interesting because
when I first heard the uh the title of
the the discussion group here I thought
Library scien is what the hell is
that but you know it actually it
actually all makes sense with the
trading you know maybe I would have
named it slightly different like the
dematerialization and demonetization of
everything because I think that kind of
hits you know I think what we’re talking
about here is you know taking all
information
and encoding it in a way in which it is
is structured so that it is
deterministic and and findable for the
stuff that is deterministic and findable
and I think that’s the that’s the first
idea here and I’ll pass off
um so yeah um my name is Joe and uh
normally when I think about my work I
don’t normally think about Library
Sciences but I it is a core element
because when you have a government one
of the core functions is having publicly
available transparent data about rules
and regulations uh being able to view
the legal code as well as being able to
make your filings and what have you and
being able to have transparency about
the different organizations that are
within your uh your jurisdiction
so I’m happy to talk about sort of how
we’ve used tools like that in the past
like ulx it’s available on GitHub as a
as the kernel of our legal system how we
have our data available for our rules
and regulations and our regulations
after for comment as well as some the
inroads that we’re making with
centralized IDs and verifiable
credentials um with our companies um and
just uh you know elements like that in
our workflow so you can register a
company in the
Nation right and so I think another
thing that people should be aware of is
that many countries are already putting
their legal code into Wiki data the
entirety of the Brazilian law is in Wiki
data that’s pretty exciting right I mean
you can go in there and start looking at
every law that’s available and seeing
how it how it’s contextualize right
that’s that’s the big thing context of
the law and and so you know most of
Europe has their code in with data it’s
just not being leveraged properly and I
think that’s you know when I’m here I’m
hopefully saying like Prosper you’ve got
all these great ideas put them in a
place where you can cross reference them
again on the librarian so it’s all cross
referencing but make it that you can
cross reference your code with other
codes so that people can do more app to
app comparison this is the thing that is
really frustrating when I hear about
another product it’s like
okay well how do I analyze this how do I
how do I take it and put it next to
another product you can do that
granularly but you really can’t do a
full topological review of anything
unless you have an underlying framework
that every and it almost doesn’t matter
which framework you pick I like with the
data because it’s done and other people
are using it and there’s an ecosystem of
critique but but really you could do any
framework as long as you’re consistent
and that’s kind of so mostly what I’m
doing up here is asking people to you
know file their socks nicely and P them
up but I mean that is really what it
comes down to is that there that isn’t
happening right now so it’s a bit of a
struggle you know where do you see some
of that I mean what opportunities do you
think there might be with dunas to like
kind of better organize that
taxonomically well one of the things
that we’re doing that’s unique um so uh
we we passed are doing a regulation
about a year ago um and one of the
things that we wanted to do to ensure
that
laws of other states don’t try to apply
their jurisdiction on our doubt wom this
is increasing the connection between
each of the individual members to the
jurisdiction and because of through
Tribal Law um jurisdiction extends
across States so long as there is an
explicit agreement with the state we
thought okay what will be one way to do
that that harnesses technology that is
distributed so one of the requirements
that we have for our Duna law is that
each of the members of the Duna needs to
have a a a did as well as a verifiable
credential that is issued after for when
they purchased it but also after they
pass kyc um and so yeah one of the
things that we want to be able to do so
the big standard that we’re that we it’s
in development there needs to be a
resolution by the The Zone Authority
before it it it’s functional but the
technolog is all there the standard that
we’re using um is based off of bitor so
you Peg the data bit T and it arguably
is one it is the one of the largest
distributed systems out there even prior
to blockchain so it’s really robust and
used by for corporations as well like
Microsoft and what have you um so it’ be
Texs that and you’d be able to through a
visualizer being able to see that uh if
someone’s able to show the public key of
the did then then you can independently
verify that you know this person is part
of the Kataba uh uh Zone uh as well as
that means that they’re in compliance
with the duno regulation that says that
they have that limited liability
protection in our legal entity so that’s
some way that we can that we’re working
to organize data specifically in
relation TOS now this isn’t specific to
library scientist but can you step back
just a little bit and tell people more
about the Kataba as economic zone I mean
it’s pretty
exciting yeah for sure so the Kataba
digital economics zone is the first
special economics Zone in the United
States uh it was enabled by the k nation
which is a parly recognized Pride under
the US Constitution and legal precedent
tribes have at least equivalent
Authority uh as US states and M right
regard is even higher because of
constitutional rules of construction fa
tribes in the event of ambiguity as well
as uh only Congress has jurisdiction uh
not the executive branch um so there’s a
lot of interesting things there but with
that framework the rule of thumb is
Imagine Delaware 2.0 or Wyoming 3.0
um so we work at the katab Any Nation uh
through a Grassroots movement and uh
they passed through their nation’s
legislature enabling act which has a
commercial code and corporate code based
off the ulx as as well as the creation
of uh a for-profit management
organization and a Zone regulatory body
think Secretary of State Financial
Services regulator that ProMag getes
rules and regulations for
man wow
it’s tremendous really is and Joseph you
really U put the nail on the head in one
regard well many but one regarding the
digital identity part of all this and
that that’s a big piece right because
you know at the end of the day it’s not
just it’s not just codifying information
and finding it and searching it it’s
being able to associate identity to
these bits of information at all
different scales
so that we can work through rights and
all sorts of things like that which is
really really important now there’s
another component in here which is
really really
interesting and that would be under the
rubric of something called Data
Trust and Data Trust there are some
folks that are thinking about Data Trust
as a mechanism of allowing information
to be put into the trust and the trust
would be able to manage that or the
rules around that information and how
will be used it’s very exciting and very
interesting but you know I have to say
they haven’t even taken an off and I
think they’re just
dead because it’s clear to
me that we don’t need Data Trust we need
data
doist
because one of the reasons why trusts
were not a entity form for what became
the Duna was that David
here M they had they had looked at trust
because it’s obviously the first choice
but trusts have a problem or they now
have a problem which is the
CPA and because of that it didn’t really
seem like the right hit so that would
mean that if you can’t really use trust
effectively
then it will probably be the next best
day which would be the the dun right a
Dun A trust to govern how that
information is used and take it from
there yeah what what were your thoughts
on having a trust in the uh the special
economics sorry yeah it’s it’s an
education effort um and the reason for
that is people don’t think of as
governments um and you know I actually
had the same problem when I first heard
that the kation were building especially
conomic that kind of rolled my eyes and
that and based on my public you know
school education I thought we all know
tries don’t have true sovereignty um I’m
I’m happy to report I was totally wrong
um you know based on know actual legal
work the problem is only people that are
in the legal space and I’m going to be
fully transparent I’m not an attorney I
play one on T TV sometimes but I’m def
nothing I ever say is would um but he
what I found strange is I went into this
project thinking that all the attorneys
were telling me this is nuts and what I
found is exact opposite all the
attorneys were extraordinarily excited
and saying why hasn’t this been done
before this makes absolute sense but the
problem is most people have’t um they
think of tribes as casinos they think
that’s where you do payday lending they
think that’s where you can get cannabis
you know weird little things like that
um with the tribe is the business rather
than a from serving others um but there
the point is we have to create an
inflection point and you can kind of see
that with the the Advent of Gober and
you when you look at that hockey stick
growth chart that they always show all
the time what you’re seeing in that that
low growth period is people learning
that calling a stranger from your phone
and jumping in their car isn’t strange
weird and likely to harm him in fact in
many cases it’s actually strictly
illegal um
but what people found over time this is
actually a viable option and through
that education process and more and more
people using it then you start getting
that production Point get that growth I
think we’re at that point we’re going to
get to that point with the Kataba we are
increasing growth significantly right
now we’re almost at 100 companies
um but we still need to get to the point
and have a constant education effort
with people that tribes our governments
and they can do at least the same and
because of how Nimble we are we can be
better
so I want you know I’ve talked about
Wiki data just a little bit but I do
want to circle around to kind of what I
hope to see coming forward which is uh
web 3 in my mind hasn’t really created a
public B yet uh it really hasn’t there’s
if you want to say Unis swap is unis
swap is the closest thing I’ve seen to
like a genuine public B um because of
the way it
conveniences uh way convenience is great
but what I am hopeful to see is
something that
I haven’t seen yet which is a web 3
Wikipedia for business process um and I
think this is going to be a really
exciting opportunity and I I’m I try to
get the guys from status down here but
they are putting Millions every year
into bpmn model and and this is pretty
exciting when I saw Nick’s diagram up
there on the screen of all the
wireframes that that’s a business
process markup notation product all
right and mirror boards most people have
look at those
they’re really useful but what is not in
place right now uh is something that
would actually make a business process
markup notation Wiki available for the
public and I think this is going to be
coming I know I know status is working
on it and uh I hope to see more folks
work on it because what it gives right
is a visual interpretation it’s a really
high bar it’s hard but it really does
hold lawyer feed Fire which is exciting
right you you want to keep them honest
and visual markup for the same reason
Nick had it up there it’s easy to
understand it it doesn’t take a lot
ofree and it doesn’t take a you know a
programming experience to understand a
visual diagram and so that’s what I’m
hoping to see in the future is more
people
work A visual
representation of these connected issues
and I think that’s uh you know for those
who are gaped out check out bpnn but
there are many other products similar uh
that are looking at these linked data
products and then on top of them
creating visual models and so hopefully
we will start seeing these Wiki products
in web 3 that really facilitate
convenient business process so that if
you’re running a Duna in wami and you
want to do trade in El Salvador you can
look at what that’s going to mean what
files you’re going to need to put in
place to be able to make those products
occur the other thing that we can start
looking at at that point and this is
really pretty Leading Edge right now is
how the accounting is going to work
right there are a fair number of lawyers
in web3 there are a ton of lawyers in
web3 there are very few accountants in
web3 I think part of the reason they’re
not in there is that they’re pretty
scared of putting themselves out of the
Jun quite frankly and I they maybe they
should be maybe they shouldn’t be I kind
of disagree I think they’ll have more
and more opportunities to do that work
but there is the opportunity then if you
can see how things are going to work you
can start imagining models and say well
what if we do this kind of trade from a
Duna to a to an LLC or if we go from a
DOA to a Duna what’s our tax liability
going to look like right because all
this comes back down to to the taxes you
pay right that’s that’s what we’re
trying to like minimize or have tax
advantage on and those are the products
that I think we’re going to see more and
more of and that I would love to
encourage prosper and other folks
creating entities to consider is like
making this a lot more accessible for
people you know when I see a miror board
I kind of my heart sinks a little bit
you know they’re they’re completely
inaccessible they’re nonfunctional you
know if you’re blind or low vision
you’re out of luck that they really
don’t do a job in the way that they
could and so there’s just a tremendous
opportunity right now to to improve that
and to make this a lot more convenient
for regular
[Music]
folks andon I would like to say that I I
I think that it’s very important to
think about all of this in the context
of what’s about to happen with
artificial intelligence and and
agents the question really becomes I
know you’re a big fan of structured data
and AI is extraordinarily good at
dealing with unstructured data so the
the it’s going to be clear that we’re at
we’re not really going to need to do a
lot of operations stuff on structur data
but that doesn’t mean it’s not useful
right we will need structur data for the
offerings for and in honings because we
have all these Legacy databases right
so connecting your AI agents to a
retrieval
alled uh generative AI system that can
search structur database uh will be you
know in in a year common place I mean
it’s already common place now it’s just
not uniformally distributed right so the
really the question is you know what is
the rate of adoption by who right as we
roll into this new world of artificial
intelligence where everybody has
the plethora of hundreds of AI agents
the question becomes well what happens
at the edges for these Legacy systems
both in and out because some systems are
not going to change at the same
rate I’ve never liked unstructured data
I I know that it has a place and mongod
DB has a place but I’ve never had any
love for it I I think give me structure
uh you know I don’t want I don’t want
close I want 100% most of the time and I
think most people feel that way when it
comes to their money um so I think that
AI is going to have a role in creating
more venient structures but I don’t see
I I still think when at the end of the
day you’re going to want something that
is perfect not decent or not I really do
I think I think AI is is great for
development and I think it’s got some
values for understanding and
interpreting but I I don’t see it as
necessary I you can get a pretty pure
SQL product or grath tol product out
with better results um but we’ll see
about that I I you know I think there’s
that’s certainly the development that
I’d like to see is people getting better
structure but like could be able to
debate well one possible use case that
we’re actually exploring with the
company right now um so one of the
things that we should be doing as a
jurisdiction is constantly there’s
there’s the value especially economic
zone is lowering your the barrier of
entry for people or businesses to get
involved and lowering the cost of doing
business one way to do that is through
the law through regulation one way
through technology we do that through
our our incorporation platform but one
things that we want to do is to have uh
sort of like a like a like a chapot
specifically that is fed information
about our legal code our regulatory code
as well just general FS about setting up
a company in the to I we’re we’re
manually Fielding these questions right
now but we want a way that have a
scalable way where people can interact
with our system and then generally just
have a low barrier way to get involved
so I think especially because of um as
Nick mentioned today ulx is thousands of
pages um and that’s you know fairly
lightweight in general for a legal code
but even still for for you know normal
person who doesn’t have a law degree um
they would have to spend you know
thousands of dollars in retainer to get
an attorney involved just so they can
you know help on their business that
could be a way of lowering barriers for
companies that getting started up
I think it’s also very important to
tease out and think about the levels of
these architectures right because
certain parts of the architectures are
going to be purely for interfacing with
a machine right so that’s very different
than being part of the machine which is
interpreting and Computing them be data
right so you can interact with these
systems as an AI system through Voice
through speech through
language and to answer your point
about the fact
that things are you know not really
deterministic or you know they’re how do
you say probabilistic in okay um you
know so that is really a system
architecture um issue right you can have
part of the interface system be handling
the the part of the system which is is
not um probabilistic in other parts that
are dealing with the parts that that
are I think that’s absolutely right and
I mean again I’m just looking at data
structures and trying to say well this
is my tiny purview on them
but right there are going to be places
where probabilistic answers are cor and
that’s great you can use AI should be
able to interpret a map pretty easily
and I get that but I still think that
for the end user you want to be able to
trace it down and this kind of goes back
to what Alex was talking about earlier
you know it’s nice to have those
relationships and being able to kind of
generalize things but in terms of
knowing what’s going to happen most
people like knowing what’s going to
happen not not kind of getting a decent
shot at it oh yeah for sure yeah I’m
pretty risk averse I didn’t end up in
the library because I’m that Wild guy um
yeah I mean definitely there there needs
to be actually needs to be the first one
people need to look at that um and I am
very very much against the idea of you
know AI lawers making final decisions or
you know people are talking about AI
judges and the whole Dow the initial
system thought of Dow is cod as law I I
can’t think of anything more stupid to
be completely honest um that’s the
reason they get to slock it Dow um you
law is interpretation it’s fuzzy it’s
not binary um and you can can automate a
lot of those functions as much as
possible but at the end of the day there
need a b no I think that’s right I think
bpmn when you look at having a structure
you can cify where there’s going to be
an arbitrary decision but you still know
that it’s part of a process right you
you realize you’re like you get to this
point arbitrary is going to happen but
but you can still see that the outcomes
from that piece are going to be ped and
that’s that’s a that’s a difference
right you can you can install arbitrary
without having the whole system the
arbitrary you can be specific about
where that is and I think that so I
don’t see that being a problem but and
this is this is the same argument and
issue and challenge with smart contracts
right because they’re never going to
capture everything and you’re going to
capture the stuff that falls through the
cracks because you can’t C of code
everything that’s legally into the SM
contract so the question really is you
know how do you design these systems to
catch the stuff that falls through the
price and you know these are the
challenges
but you know as we as we start to put
you know more things um
online should I say should I actually
say air air table Yeah say air T
it’s it’s a structured data I but or or
or
um or blockchains that
uh these things will become uh easier to
do right getting more data that that we
have online and the more that we build
AUD to build systems on top of them
right and
incentivization systems to do the
auditing then we’re operating at a very
different level right because we can
catch these erors and you can have not
just one auditor you can have a thousand
Auditors to be your AUD and all of these
kinds of things bring us into a new
operational place
you I just want to say that while we’re
talking about these products I don’t
really see much there there may be
places for blockchain and these things
but on you know when you talk about gdpr
and the right to be forgotten those are
really critical elements and so for
interoperability I don’t see much of
this data in terms of structure going on
chain right I think it’s I think that’s
Risky Business and probably aies for the
most part there there may be
opportunities there but I’d be you know
okay so here we get to the really
interesting conversation right so the
idea that information is on chain is you
know
um not necessarily exact right so
there’s most all information related to
a blockchain is not going to be on
chain the blockchain itself is only
going to serve the purpose of having the
hash of representation of that data
which is off chain but the real s a
question becomes
here regarding privacy right
so it’s not only about the information
but when you
expose those actors and entities and
individuals and data when is it
appropriate to do that and when is it
non-appropriate to do that and more
importantly and this this has come up
extensively in you know thinking about
registered agents
who are creating entities right and your
contracts and you have all these things
about a company that you know could
potentially be exposed um some things
you want to be exposed right there’s
lots of information about a company you
want to be exposed but then there’s
other things you don’t want to be
exposed if you if you have everything on
chain then you know China or any
other actor comes along and just reads
the chain and then you know really quite
frankly there’s no strategic Advantage
anymore because we just gave away all
our
secrets wow that’s a problem so we want
to make sure that we uh think very
carefully about the Privacy complain
about this and not just individual
privacy everybody talks about DDR and
per people right you know but it’s it’s
it’s it’s the Privacy about you know
what we are are doing
organizationally um as entities and
ecosystems of entities and when is it
appropriate to to to do that hiding and
that hiding of who’s doing what when and
and that’s actually really important for
democracy yeah have
microphone two microphones yeah I I
to fist it all right no I mean I I I
guess you know I mean in terms of data
architecture what I’m looking forward to
seeing more of a a web free product that
gives people the opportunity to look at
these business processes edit them and
then perhaps yeah you can snapshot that
into a solidity contract you could
snapshot the the schema into an anest
station you could have zero knowledge
proofs you could have all of that kind
of security and I think that is exciting
I think that is probably a reasonable
direction to see things go I I’m you
know that’s certainly what I would like
to see but as a starting point I am
hoping that here in Prosper and Salvador
in the United States we will start
organizing all of these entity
structures and the processes the forms
that are required file so that it’s to
the app I I still see that as a huge gap
in the ecosis it could save people a lot
of time and hopefully make people some
money uh yeah that is what we’re trying
to do here uh some partly what we’re
trying to do here trying to help people
that’s yes sir
hey um I couldn’t help a feel that Tim
burner’s Lee is missing
here um sir Tim burner’s Lee while he
was at CERN creates
HTTP we have hypertext mode as a result
of it and uh there you go the beginning
of the internet on top of Dara that was
kind of interesting and I couldn’t help
but think with this conversation just to
mention what he said which is he never
imagined the internet to be what it is
today which he doesn’t work in fact uh
this whole thing of closed systems and
data kind of like being hidden behind
the scenes uh was something that he
didn’t anticipate if anything he wanted
researchers to be able to share their
data widely and then be able to what he
normally did at ser and at other um
institutions globally like MIT and St
UFT and I gotta mention UF because I’m a
Canadian that’s important I suppose um
my point is this
um the blockchain thing I think is kind
of like the best solution we have right
now the fact that we have pointers that
point to the data is is a function of as
we know storage
space Hardware is doing a pretty good
job in terms of computing thanks to
Jensen and video and um a lot of the
stuff that we’re actually talking about
is being worked on uh very quietly in
places so what I’m hoping is that the
conversation might kind of turn to
something that I think um maybe brings
everyone to the same page which is I
have the feeling that all of you
actually agree but you just have
different perspectives on getting there
and that I think is what needs to be
said which is it’s not an either or or
and it’s more like I think of it as a
spectrum and then depending on who
you’re talking to you can be like this
gentleman super safe like so safe so
safe got to have it like I got to know
100% where I’m going from here to there
to our friend in the middle and you know
who’s like hey unstructured you know we
got agents you know they’re kind of free
and they figure it out on my own and
then of course this gentleman to the
left which is like look I’ve got a
solution I’m working on it but I’d
rather maybe to hear where where the
commonality is as opposed to the
difference
is I think we all agree that distributed
systems have a place and I think we
definitely all agreed that ATT
attestations or credentials in and
hashing data on chain or on a
distributed uh system is really
important obviously um the the question
is for what use cases
because everything looks like a nail
when you have a hammer and I feel like
everyone here owns a lot of hammers or
at least our Hammer Enthusiast um but we
also we also want to make sure that we
keep the the floor you know without
dents unnecessarily so um I I think it’s
it’s it’s first identifying what are the
solid undeniable use cases for this
technology and also the right technology
for instance the reason why uh we’re
going with um with not necessarily A
blockchain but a distributed system like
a Bitcoin war is for one um there
whenever you choose a specific chain
right now you can get caught in a lot of
chain Wars um and also interop when
you’re when you’re a government you also
want to be interoperable and as soon as
you say that you’re associate with a
blockchain then there’s some
difficulties there versus if you’re with
a distribut system that isn’t tied to a
particular ideology or politics it has
you know the same mechanics that allow
for immutability and verifiability what
have you that be very helpful um so yeah
I think it’s it just a m the question
yes obviously we see the value in
technology it’s just where is the buzz
versus where is actual use cases and
what is the appropriate tool for the
particular
comp okay I would also say that we
probably agree on 95% of things and it’s
kind of fun to get into the details of
where we see differences you know I I’m
pretty agreeable to the best part but I
like to get a little bit contentious
with colleagues just to make it
interesting what’s the point of the
panel if they all
agree
CH all right um last we have about like
three minutes left so o was
first thank you thank you well uh it
just reminds me of the library in
Alexandria and the Tower of Babel you
know uh but anyway when you talk about
about Library I think about storage you
know and with that all that data and all
that’s that’s uh being stored
systematically through different means
through different uh tools over the
years over the
centuries now we got to a point that um
we got a company for instance called
palent here that uses all that
information to
predict so I want you to say something
what do you see in the future or in your
career about predictions you see what
you have in your
part yeah sure uh I think we’re going to
be able to lick a lot more because we’re
going to be able to analyze a lot more
because we’re going to take all this
data and expose it in ways in which we
can now
you know crunch it um but that also
brings us back to back to privacy right
meaning that there to answer the
question there can and there should be
variability in that right so there
certainly should be lots of data which
is uh which you can’t draw predictions
from because that would be bad like I
don’t want people to maybe you know
predict you know whatever about me right
I think you’re I think if you’re Hest
the main thing is that you’ll be able to
do much better predictive analysis if
you have models that are easy to AAL
right that once you have a framework and
everybody chooses an ISO standard they
choose their you know again I just it
almost doesn’t matter which standard
people choose as long as they pick one
you know it doesn’t matter if it’s Json
or
XML once you pick the standard you can
start analyzing and and I think doing
predictive analysis and seeing how much
taxes am I going to owe if I you know
for a model like this will be a lot
easier when people start working
businesses and you know especially in
the nonprofit sector where I think you
know nonprofit and government sectors
where transparency and auditability are
critical you’re you’re going to have
huge opportunities and governments are
going to be able to say hey this model
really saved us a ton of money you know
and and this special economics is going
to say well we learned a lot of things
and that’s going to be business you know
that’ll be your kind of your business
Special Sauce which you may not share
with everyone but you will have that
data and be able to you know assist the
people in your community to do better
business I mean I think that’s 100% of
the direction that goes but you need to
have a struct you don’t need to you
could you could get to a model with AI
that would be very very good but it
would certainly be convenient to have a
structured model to understand what’s
going to happen yeah you don’t have to
but it’s but it’s nice too and I’m going
to beer slightly off with you know my
expertise here um I do think prediction
better predicted models can happen with
data that’s more transparent but one
element that won’t be is for things that
you don’t want on chain and one thing
you think about we have our assets
that’s on are on chain that are
verifiable right now but right now for
businesses for instance you don’t have
liabilities and in order to make
accurate predictions we cannot just look
at assets because you could look at
binance’s group of of of a group of uh
assets but you only get a part of the
picture you don’t know what the
liabilities you are you don’t know how
much of that is L that they have and
what have you so I think it’s both it’s
it’s a responsibility of special
economic zones and jurisdictions or even
just private organizations to create
standards that different institutions
need to start putting not
just assets on train but liabilities on
train and that could be really helpful
from the regulatory standpoint or a
self-regulatory standpoint and therefore
that could lead to better prediction
models moving forward I completely agree
with you because you only have you know
one half of the
books you know how much can you predict
if you’re hiding the other half I mean I
don’t I don’t want like just normal
businesses to put their liabilities but
if you’re like if you are a financial
institution I think one thing that would
be a smart regulation by a special
jurisdiction it’ll be requiring
financial institutions to require to put
out their
liabilities but the other thing I think
is really important to think about is
you know how you
categorize these or engineer these at
the right level of granularity so maybe
you don’t want your whole financial
institution or whole company to have
everything out there in the public that
would be bad right but maybe you can
carve out or you carve out a subsidiary
where you know everything about that
little subsidiary to do a very very
discreet operational thing is exposed to
the public and I guess the only thing I
know we don’t have much time about one
of the things I’d like to F with is that
the part of the advantage of using these
ecosystems that have already been
established is that you get to leverage
the communities that are already in
place and you can get this really robust
critique right I work with the open
street map uh Foundation quite a bit and
and at one point I was mapping all the
sidewalks in charot and it was
remarkable somebody in Germany came in
and corrected my sidewalk mapping from
across the world they were like well you
missed a sidewalk here and and and and I
think that’s one of the things that’s
really exciting is that you have this
opportunity to leverage a glow of
community if you start moving in this
direction that you can get some really
really ass burer people which is really
what you want for for for doing data
analysis you want Grinders you want
people who are just absolutely Die Hard
focused on accuracy and that way you can
you do they did the best job and so you
need that for for and you have that
opportunity to leverage that and that’s
what I would like to close with is that
there’s a huge community of librarians
of data scientists in that community who
want to see this happen and I think web
3 you know they tend to think of
themselves as incredibly novel and
incredibly special and and that’s simply
well that that’s dis beautiful but I
think they’re they’re missing a lot of
opportunities to leverage community that
would love to participate if they
started thinking about how to structure
their
work uh I think we’re getting Oscar
music but just the final words uh return
all books that are late in your library
and maintain compliance with your
library
[Music]
Department no I’m good
[Music]
thanks thank you so much a round of
applause to the speakers I’m so S I hate
to be the person sing in the site same
thank you so much for being here you’ll
have a lot of time to network afterward
is the beautiful thing about being all
here at Italia you get
to thank you all right so this was the
last panel that’s going to be streamed
for the people online thank you so much
for joining us the next panel that you
see in the agenda which is public Choice
case uh case study that said will not be
streamed unfortunately um recommend next
time to come and join us um so we can
stop the streaming now and I would like
to invite our
next e
1 Comment
I don’t hear anything