Bitcoin Mining Pools Are Critically Centralized | Matt Corallo

Bitcoin Mining Pools Are Critically Centralized | Matt Corallo

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take seven I believe welcome back to the
show thanks thanks for having
me you seem a little down
this yeah that’s probably true uh I
think this may be uh the peak of my
bearishness on bitcoin as a notorious
Bitcoin Bearer I think this might be uh
this might be the peak I mean the first
time you on you said Bitcoin had a 5%
chance of success are we below that now
I we might be we might be I think I
think things are looking real bad right
now all right let’s uh get a
visualization of how bad things are
looking particularly at the mining pool
layer so this is a tweet from Ox
b10c who’s done a great job of
analyzing the Bitcoin blockchain and
particularly keeping an eye on mining
pools to see what they’re up to how
they’re constructing blocks and him and
monut from mol. space have been sounding
the alarm that it looks like if you look
at the Merkel branches that mining pools
send to miners as part of a strat of
their stratum jobs it’s clear that the
btc.com pool binance pool pool in emcd
raw pool and possibly brains have
exactly the same template in custom
transaction prioritization as
antpool um so this equates
to about 50% of the mining hash rate as
represented by mining pools essentially
handling how blocks are constructed and
the payouts as well so this dictates
payouts from a central party as well
yeah so basically they’re all the same
pool from the perspective of Bitcoin uh
these are all the same
pool not good no no it’s not good so I
mean I think it’s so it’s important to
to to kind of point out why this is a
problem I think so bitcoin’s value
proposition I would argue and I hope not
so controversially argue is that it is a
censorship resistant money right that or
more colloquially Bitcoin is [ __ ] you
money it is money that I can control
that you can’t stop me from using
however I see fit it is freedom money
and that comes from censorship persists
that comes from this concept of I can
send the money wherever I want and
there’s no entity or no group of
entities that can stop me and the answer
right now is it’s clearly not true right
there’s one pool that has near 50% of
hash power you know throughout all of
bitcoin’s history we had a lot of
centralization in pools so you know
obviously pools uh ensure that miners
get stable Rewards and minor want this
and is really important for the business
of a lot of miners um
but they also select the transactions
they also select what goes into the
Bitcoin blockchain and they can
censor right and so they’re being a
large pool that’s nearing 50% that’s
getting to the point where they could
completely censor the Bitcoin blockchain
if they wanted to just by their own
decision- making should frighten
everyone and should be high on the list
of worries you know I don’t know why I
know the price is up but people should
not be bullish with this
news no
and was this news an accident because
the way I understand this became
apparent to monut particularly was
that he recognized that there was a
large consolidation of coinbase
transaction so it might have been a
mishap on behalf of this monolithic pool
consolidating all these coin bases that
were assumed be from separate pools that
fall under this
umbrella yeah so monut noticed that
clearly all of these pools are using the
same custodian so basically all the
money from all these pools is going to
the same place um and concluded like
look they’re at a minimum the same
custodian now that wouldn’t be great for
Bitcoin but isn’t necessarily all that
concerning um you know it’s still if
they’re separate entities and
importantly if there’s separate entities
selecting the transactions and creating
the work right the the important part
for Bitcoin is who selects the
transactions that go in the n in in the
blockchain and as long as there’s a lot
of those then hopefully we do okay but
when there’s but then uh Ox b10c then
noted that in fact no they’re not just
using the same custodian they’re
actually selecting identical
transactions and clearly using the same
Bitcoin node to select the same
transactions uh so for all in and
purposes they’re the same pool they’re
not they’re not separate entities they
might be you know separate entities but
they’re just proxying for the same
pool and so maybe not to play Devil’s
Advocate but
to highlight like why would the miners
be comfortable doing this is there an
advantage in their part yeah so I think
that I think there there are business
reasons here um so what has
been what I’ve surmised
from talking to a few people is that uh
miners demand basically this fixed paper
share payouts so miners want to be paid
the same amount of Bitcoin per share
that they submit to their pool
irrespective of the current fees in the
in the block template irrespective of uh
you know the block award
whatever um and that’s really expensive
uh and and you need a very large balance
sheet to actually pay out fixed pay per
share
uh so we saw this with Pand going
bankrupt um six months or a year or two
years ago uh right they offered fixed
paper share for a lot of their mining
customers a lot of their miners uh the
miners often want it for their own
business reasons it’s just more
convenient to deal with on their part um
and then Pand just didn’t have the
balance sheet for it Pand got a little
unlucky for a while or someone did a
block with holding attack no way to know
no way to know um and then
they couldn’t meet their payout
obligations and so they went out of
business or they went bankrupt I guess
they’re now still in business or back in
business but now they’re just a proxy
for ant pool so it’s all the same um so
I guess they got absorbed by the Borg um
after going bankrupt but it’s it’s very
impractical as a small to moderate sized
pool to offer fixed paper share and in
fact even as a large pool if you don’t
have an absolutely Giant balance sheet
you can’t offer fixed pay per
share and so it what appears to have
happened is all these pools basically
said our users are want fixed paper
share we can’t offer fixed paper share
with our balance sheet without risking
bankruptcy um and so instead what we’re
going to do is just we’re going to
become a proxy we’re not you know we’re
not really going to be a pool we’re just
going to be a proxy in front of another
Pool and we’re going
to you know be a a shill organization
basically yeah the Central Bank of the
mining
pool right ecosystem
essentially right you mind if we get
conspiratorial
here I wouldn’t expect anything left I
mean we had the China mining band in
2021 a lot
of media Focus Media attention
narratives driven from
that that’s one thing that has been
talked about since then
yes physical mining machines were forced
to leave the borders of China at least
temporarily we saw the network hash rate
fell 50 to 60% soon recovered his miners
went all around the world I believe 20%
of hash rate has settled back in China
uh there’s a material amount of hash
rate still in China but for all intents
and purposes there was a ban on hash
rate production within Chinese borders
but one thing that really hasn’t been
talked about through throughout the
years and probably something I should
have brought up because it is very
noticeable is the Chinese mining pools
have still been in operation and they’re
at the
center continues to be bitm too right it
continues to be it seems like bitm has
with the exception of f2p bit bitm has
kind of recreated this conglomerate and
this ownership of uh Bitcoin mining hash
power in a way that we you know they
during seg 2x we saw bitmain’s behavior
and during the segwit drama we saw kind
of a clear desire from bitm to act as
the Arbiter of the Bitcoin Network right
they had this very clear desire to
decide what happened to bitcoin and I
think hopefully rightfully most people
or or I think hopefully most people but
certainly rightfully uh concluded that
dear God this is like no one why does
someone want to be in charge of Bitcoin
this is kind of antithetical to the
thesis of Bitcoin um and now they have
40% hash rate
again yeah and we all seem to be okay
with this yeah well it’s funny because
we do have a precent of this in
bitcoin’s history with
gash wasn’t that
2015 right and I think what what puts
that up what what what’s a little
different there is gash asked miners to
leave and some Miners did leave and all
the miners left isn’t around anymore
because fre certainly eventually um but
not right away it did take a little bit
of time but you know there’s always
there’s often this this narrative in
Bitcoin where people say well well well
it’s okay that pools are very
centralized and that there’s only a few
pools and and whatever because mining
hash rate can just switch to a new pool
overnight in 5 seconds mining miners
will you know if the pool tries to do
anything bad miners will immediately
switch to another Pool um and no one
should worry about this because this
this is how it’s going to happen and I
mean clearly that’s obviously not the
case right not only do we know that
that’s not the case for practical
purposes right these mining pools and
their miners are large businesses with
negotiated contracts that they negotiate
over the course of months um you know
you can’t move overnight often you’ll
have a backup you know you might have
two contracts you have you have a
contract with some backup pool U
hopefully a backup pool although we now
know that many of the pools are just
from for each other and it’s all just
one pool anyway um but you know
obviously miners AR aren’t going to
switch over night reques reconfiguring
all these machines and and uh
negotiating a new business contract but
also miners haven’t switched in the last
two weeks the ant pool and and bit main
pool conglomerate has not materially
reduced has power has not materially
lost hash power so clearly this thesis
like well it’s okay that you know pools
are centralized because miners well just
do the right thing for Bitcoin is
[ __ ] yeah and
it’s gotten to a point too where the
Alternatives I think that’s the sneaky
part about what’s going on with this
Mega pool is that it’s filled with a lot
of non kyc pool operator so many
miners view this as favorable these
these options is favorable because they
can sign up with no kyc and the
alternatives are companies like Foundry
which require
kyc um and that adds a
little variable to the game theory of
the decisions that are being
made um and as you mentioned become
hyper industrialized since the gash days
so right A lot of these have boardroom
decisions that need to be made it’s not
people running moonshine operations that
were able to make decisions on a whim
like they were back in
2015 right right yeah and I think you
know
it’s it’s frustrating too because I
think for a long time you know there are
business reasons why miners join a pool
obviously it’s not uh you know miners
need consistent payouts or they at least
consistent payouts um and in many case
need or they just simply will go under
because they won’t be able to afford
their electricity one month because they
got unlucky and didn’t find a block um
so pools have to exist for some you know
for some miners to be
effective
but the you know as a technologist is
someone who works on bitcoin software uh
and Bitcoin protocols you know the
technologists we’ve done our job right
we’ve created systems for miners to be
able to mine without giving up their
control over transaction selection to
the pool um so there’s in the olden days
there was P2 pool people stopped using
P2 pool in part because of
misunderstanding they’d see high high
orphan rates in the UI but uh and
Confused that for uh not getting paid
you know if you have a 5% orphan rate
people thought that that meant you lost
5% of Revenue which wasn’t the casee
it’s you know if you have a 5% orphan
rate and everyone else has a 5% orphan
rate everyone still gets the right
revenue and it’s fine um so there was a
little confusion in in the UI it did
have some issues some people had a
higher orphan rate which did uh cause
you to lose revenue and it also couldn’t
pay out a lot of small miners basically
you could only use it if you were a
fairly large minor once it got big um so
you know it had some issues but people
could still do it people could go set up
private P2 pools you know if you’re a
large minor and you want to work with
three other large Miners and set up a
pool but none of you want to trust each
other none of you want to trust the
other ones to to you know operate the
pool and and manage the nodes and you
know make sure that the payouts are
correct whatever you could run a private
P2 pool completely unrusted just between
the three or five or whatever minors um
and it would work no problem right so
that’s a solution stratum V2 is finally
in beta so the the SRI a product that uh
spiral my employer funded for many years
spent you know hundreds of thousands of
dollars paying people to work on this
and to build this software suite exists
it works people can try it out now
wouldn’t call it production ready you
know it’s still got it’s still early
days but we don’t see miners testing it
right you know if miners if it were the
case that this thesis that like miners
care deeply about Bitcoin and they’ll
switch pools overnight if they have if
that were true we’d see minor running
around testing Strat on B2 today right
we’d see minor saying look we care
deeply about Bitcoin we’ve invested all
this money in as6 we care about
bitcoin’s value and value proposition
not just the dollar value of the coin
but the long-term value because you know
Bitcoin censorship resistance matters um
then we’d see every minor testing
stratum V2 right we’d see every minor
taking three of their machines three of
their rigs pointing it at demand you
know they’re is a production pool that
runs stratom V 2 you can go mine on this
pool called demand pool that was um one
of the guys who was working on shatam V2
and and somebody who’s been around the
mining space for a while went and
founded a pool to offer the service to
people um we’d see people doing that and
we don’t right we don’t see anyone
caring about the issues of mining
centralization from the mining side
today which is very
frustrating so it feels like you know
technologists have done the work
and the vast majority of minor certainly
there are minors who who care deeply
about these issues and you know maybe
aren’t aware of of these things or don’t
have time to to invest to to switch
their architecture you know maybe it’s
on the road map they just haven’t gotten
to it yet um but I think the vast
majority of minors that’s clearly not
true the vast majority of minors clearly
have demonstrated very little care for
the Bitcoin
Network
yeah no just thinking
what a lot of the focus has been on last
few years in the mining industry
particularly it’s really on the energy
and Asic procurement side it’s been
right somewhat
myopic in terms of driving down your
input cost and neglecting the yeah I
mean the backend actual health of the
network right I mean look if you’re a
minor you you’ve got shareholders or
certainly your own profit to care about
you know you’ve got to care about all
the things you met mentioned you know
power contracts making sure your Farm’s
operating efficiently cutting expenses
on employees you know you don’t want to
spend too much money on a bunch of very
high pric Engineers who are going to do
stuff like this totally understood but
at some point you know the Bitcoin
network has to be important for miners
then the long-term value of Bitcoin
hopefully they they care about that um
and you know this needs to rise to the
top of the priority list it needs to
rise the top of their priority list
right [ __ ] now because it turns out
all the pools are lying turns out half
the pools are lying to their customers
like I went around spoke to a bunch of
miners a bunch of them did not know that
their pool was actually just a proxy for
ant pool that they weren’t mining on you
know uh these these pools like pool and
it’s actually just an pool now or
btc.com I mean those were always the
same owners obviously btc.com and
apppool but um
you know miners just weren’t aware of
this and then so the fact that this
isn’t now at the top of the priority
list to go you know test out stratum V2
build a private P2 pool Network fund
grade pool there’s another project where
somebody is trying to revive P2 pool but
fix a lot of the issues um that made P2
pool a little less practical to mine on
for a large business um that is still
early it’s not certainly not available
for use yet um but you know I don’t see
any minor funding it I don’t see any
miners encouraging Engineers to work on
it or anything like that to try to to
become make that an option for them so
that they have you know decentralized
alternative to the pools that they’re
trusting yeah look can pull up the uh
pie chart again cuz this is really where
it gets dismaying if you just look at
the options I mean Foundry yes you could
go to them and they’re testing stratum
V2 L the at least the encrypted hash
delivery from the individual miners to
the
pool um right and that’s so that’s the
the other part too is it’s important to
recognize that when someone says they’re
testing stratum V2 you have to ask are
you testing stratum V2 where your end
points your customers of the pool can
set the work they want to mine on or are
they just testing well stratum V2 the
like very naive protocol that’s just
Strat and V1 with some better crypto
because that that doesn’t help Bitcoin
that helps miners you know you you get
encryption you get uh a little lower
bandwidth usage um it’s a little more
efficient fine whatever um but it
doesn’t help
Bitcoin no and I so to be clear I don’t
actually know whether sh whether Foundry
is testing um the full work Custom work
selection protocol or not um I haven’t
spoken to them about this I know some
other shov V2 folks have um so I’m not
trying to throw them under the bus but I
know for example brains and and don’t
want to throw brains under the bus
they’re they’re great folks but you know
they’re a small business that has to pay
out fixed pay per share and I don’t know
that they’re really in a position to do
that and they don’t support um stratum
V2 with custom work selection it’s not
something that they’ve built out and I
don’t know why I don’t know if they
don’t have the resources for it or I
don’t know if they just have to join the
the pool Borg conglomerate because it’s
the only way they can stay in business I
don’t know where their heads at but you
know they don’t support it either
currently it’s only demand pool yeah
and brains
particularly made the switch from pplns
to fpps last year after being pplns for
the longest time and right the scut aut
around the industry is that they lost
large clients because they were PPL ands
um so basically bent the need of PPS to
solve that problem yeah I I would
imagine so um and here again you know
it’s miners making decisions that are
best for them and throw Bitcoin under
the bus to some extent now to be clear
you can do Straton V2 with uh custom
work selection and still do fix payer
share it’s totally an option if a pool
wants to offer that um but for the most
part this demand of fixed paper share
just means that there can only be one
pool or two pools or certainly one pool
Insurance Service uh because you just
have to have you’re demanding that your
pool has such a deep balance sheet that
no one can really do it certainly none
of these small pools that are just pool
businesses uh you know you have to have
another business on the side like bit
main where you have a very deep balance
sheet yeah now the pie chart is really
disconcerning because
that’s again like what options do the
miners have right now and there’s few
yeah far so
it’s begs the question is there need for
like a a skin shedding here the mining
pool industry like a snake that needs to
shed its skin and have new new entrance
pop up like demand like ocean totally
you know I mean if if but it’s a
question of miners actually doing it you
know again we’ve got to get miners have
to be willing to take the take a little
bit of pain in the short term not you
know average revenue paying but maybe
pplns from demand or ocean um you know
maybe it’s going to a pool and saying
look you ship stratum V2 with custom
work selection in six months or we walk
and be ready to switch to demand you
know maybe demand gets some hash power
from that and pplns or whatever so that
you know you still get the same average
revenue but a little less consistent and
you know miners at some point need to be
willing to do some of these things so
that Bitcoin Bitcoin operates well so
the bitcoin’s actually worth something
well that’s the most important part is I
think we need to strike the fear of God
into the mining industry
where there’s a meme and it’s uh it’s
got some validity to it the miners are
somewhat of the cavemen in the industry
just plug in machine pay their
electricity bill get Bitcoin out the
other end don’t really think much um
obviously that’s uh
it’s not completely true but I think
it’s directionally correct that most a
lot of miners particularly that have
come in the space the last few years
just see this Arbitrage opportunity
between the price to produce Bitcoin and
the price that it’s trading at at any
given point in time um but there’s a lot
of upfront Capital that goes into that
deposits for electricity cont contracts
deposits for as6 um paying for Asic
delivery all the infrastructure around
it the actual housing minors so there’s
a lot of capital at stake and I think
that’s right what miners need to
understand is that all that sunk cost
Capital that they put into their
operations billions tens of billions of
dollars in aggregate is at risk if this
problem isn’t
solved yeah I mean you know whether
it’s that happens one way or another
eventually um probably
not probably not soon you know there’s
like three different ways or four
different ways that that Capital could
be a problem um that that investment
could be become a problematic investment
if if this doesn’t get fixed either
Bitcoin gets censored you know whether
it’s regulatory decision um or whether
it’s just the decision of of McCree the
current CEO of of bitmain or whoever the
next CEO is just decides they’re going
to start censoring Bitcoin um then I
think clearly the Bitcoin value would
plummet and the miners would be left
hold to nothing um they left with a huge
investment in Bitcoin that’s now
worthless um or you know maybe the
Bitcoin Community wakes up maybe the
Bitcoin Community says look this is
[ __ ] the miners you know we have now
you know almost 15 years of experience
with Bitcoin for the vast majority of
that at least more than a decade we’ve
had pools and the pools have always been
fairly centralized and
we have the technology to fix that but
miners haven’t adopted it so we need to
fire the miners and we need to pick a
new crop of miners who’s gonna uh maybe
adopt technologies that are available
and do something better for Bitcoin so
maybe the proof of work function changes
you know maybe all these miners suddenly
have a huge pile of Asic that they have
have to replace because the proof of
work function change just to
specifically force all of them to go
bankrupt dang pull out the nuclear
option you know I like like I I don’t
you know eventually something is going
to give right if if this doesn’t change
and doesn’t change in the next five to
10 years something is going to give
and it’s probably just one of those two
yeah I haven’t heard the hash function
change threatened since uh the fork Wars
when Luke Dasher was putting it
forth um yeah
look I
mean it’s you know when we’re talking
about a blockchain fork we’re really
talking about two things that are going
to be valued differently like miners
don’t you know when we were talking
about like the block the the fork Wars
and seg 2x and all these things the the
hash function wasn’t you know where the
miners ended up mining wasn’t really a
determining Factor because the market
was going to decide the market was going
pick the fork that they thought was more
valuable and then the H the hashers or
the miners were they could mine whatever
they wanted but they were only going to
get paid as much if they were mining the
one that the market thought was more
valuable so you know they were kind of
along for the ride
um so threatening them then wasn’t maybe
all that interesting here it’s a clear
case of just the miners aren’t doing the
thing that is good for the network
they’re doing something that is in many
way is not good for the network um and
you know if it were just like well the
incentives are off and there’s no way
for them to to do something that’s
better for the network while uh still
you know having a sustainable business
and a good business then that’d be one
thing like we should fix the in
incentives but here that’s not the case
here you know the technologists have
done their job okay Sr is only in beta
fine it’ll be released soon um but the
minor haven’t you know the miners
haven’t started testing these things the
miners haven’t explored P2 pool and the
miners haven’t been you know I’ve seen
zero minors involved in discussions
around braid pool zero right um so you
know the miners haven’t moved towards
these things and so here clearly there’s
a case of just the miners aren’t doing
the thing they need to do even though
you know the incentives are neutral
there’s no material Revenue loss maybe
it’s a little less consistent because
maybe there’s you know if you switch to
P2 pool it might be pplns or something
but yeah if you get enough hasch power
it averages out pretty well you’ll be
all right
um
so yeah I mean I don’t know
what it it seems to me like the Bitcoin
network is much better off changing the
proof of work and bankrupting the
existing crop of miners than waiting
until Bitcoin gets
censored yeah
that’s going to cause a lot of now I’m
think I don’t think that’s a shortterm
no now I’m thinking of like I don’t
think that’s a shortterm thing it’s very
painful but no I’m putting on my tin
foil hat now um because you think of how
ingrained mining operations have become
with grid systems off- grid
systems uh it’s a big industry now it’s
yeah it’s a massive
industry and
the vested interest in the ancillary
services
Beyond Bitcoin
mining
um the precarious situation that
something like changing the the hash
function would put them in is like
pretty heavy to think about like you
talking about like grid instability
potential in Texas
um that’s yeah I mean well look if you
change the hash function you give people
time and they can buy you know the
current miners may go bankrupt but
somebody else will buy new asex and and
build similar systems so you’re right
it’ be painful but hopefully it wouldn’t
have to be that painful no it would be
painful it would be a logistical
nightmare um but that I mean that begs
the question too I mean we’ve been
getting at
it um beating around the bush but like
mining pools are notoriously terrible
businesses that need ancillary added
value services to actually be profitable
businesses and again going to the snake
shedding its skin analogy like are the
current crop of pool operators the
people that should actually be operating
pools should it be a conglomerate of not
a conglomerate but should it be like
individual energy companies run a pool
um should it be well and again you know
somebody
had yeah well I mean you know it’s as
you mentioned it’s not a good business
in many cases so you know an exchange or
an existing business that wants
to optimize for returns is not
necessarily going to invest in running a
pool so we saw this with with binance
right binance runs a pool it’s just a
proxy for for and poool and we’ve known
that for a while I think they said that
publicly um but you know now we know
that even more pools are actually just
proxies for antpool um so you know when
when you see something like that often
it’s just contracted out so you know
maybe the answer is more that large
miners get together and run a private P2
pool instance you know maybe they create
their own you know mutually untrusted
pool where they all join in they all you
know operate P2 pool nodes the software
exists you don’t have to Fork it you
just got to run it you know it’s been
[ __ ] P2 pool was popular in 2012 2013
like I mean you know it’s been around
forever
um and you know maybe it should just be
a side part of business of running a
minor you know maybe you just need to to
hire one guy or not even one guy you
know maybe just your current Ops people
are capable of running P2 pool on the
side um and the business folks run
around and join forces with a few other
miners to to create you know these
private mining pools yeah you know maybe
we shouldn’t have mining pools but have
you personally talk to any of the bigger
miners about this
or not this idea specifically um you
know I think that is a bigger shift in
the industry and I don’t know how many
miners are ready for
that um you know I think getting stratom
V2 over the line is a little bit of an
easier sell because stratum V2 is
basically the existing business you know
you’re still working with a mining pool
you’re still you know doing the
same uh same thing you do now but you
just run a little different software
um and so I think
that’s I certainly thought that was an
easier sell uh so far we haven’t
really gotten much in the way of miners
actually testing this stuff you know the
software exists and developers want
testing uh want people to to try stuff
out but so far it hasn’t
been uh yeah so far it hasn’t been a big
a big
thing I think I’m remember it had be
2018 or 2019 meeting in New York talking
about shroud and B2 for the first time
at a vegan restaurant Midtown yeah um
it’s been a while it’s an old idea you
know it’s it’s an old idea I mean the
idea itself predates stratom V2 you know
pre previous iterations of the protocol
um sadly stratum V2 as a spec uh you
know we spiral struggled a little bit to
find people to fund to work on it you
know it took a while for us we were were
running around begging anyone you know
hey if if you want to work on this as a
software engineer we’ll pay you um
please work on it we struggled for a
long time to find anyone to do that uh
we eventually did uh it’s now a a a open
source project that that is available
it’s in beta um there’s a handful of
people working on it we still fund I
think one or two of them um so so it
took a while but it is finally there and
now it’s time for miners to you know do
their jam jobs and start testing it and
start working towards it quick break
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the show what would you say to
people um who hear this and say he’s
Shilling his own bags he’s been working
on Strat and B2 for the better part of a
decade um he wants to see his baby get
into the world like this isn’t something
we have to worry about we have somebody
with
um bias putting forth um a solution they
want to see in the
world yeah I mean again I don’t really
care if it’s Straton B2 or private pich2
pools or braid pool um I didn’t I I
worked on the design of the Straton B2
protocol I haven’t actually worked at
all on the software I’m Shilling other
people’s software for the the SRI the
stratum reference implementation uh that
some other few people people built um
but yeah I mean again I don’t really
care how we get there I care that the
transaction selection the selection of
which transactions into the Bitcoin
blockchain becomes
decentralized because today it’s not and
you
know I hope that and and I think Bitcoin
only has value if it is you know I think
as I think stratum V2 is the most likely
way to get there because I think it you
know continues the existing business
models that people are used to and
people are comfortable with um and you
know you can continue to use a pool you
know if we switch to a bunch of private
P2 pool instances then you know variance
is going to be higher and people might
not like that but with shadon V2 your
variance doesn’t have to be any higher
your variance can be the same you can
still do fixed paper share as long as
your pool has a de balance sheet but in
theory you can still do it um
so I I think it’s the most likely but I
I don’t know if other if something else
gets adopted I’m very happy to see that
but you know at the end of the day right
now nearly
every uh proof of stake system is
substantially more decentralized than
Bitcoin and I don’t know why bitcoiners
are okay with that do you think there’s
a perception that it’s a big lift to
even test this and then
eventually implement it and if so is
that a misconception maybe maybe I don’t
know that I’ve spoken to enough miners
to have an understanding you know I know
again most miners don’t necessarily have
a big Tech staff they don’t have a bunch
of Engineers who are going to go you
know Implement stuff they do many miners
have some uh software Engineers because
they build their own mining farm
management in house um some don’t some
use third parties
but it shouldn’t be a huge lift here I
mean we’re talking you know either one
virtual machine in the cloud or you know
one uh little you know you buy the
little Intel ncks the little you know
PCS that are like this big they’re like
raspberry pies but they’re actually
powerful they’re not you know garbage um
you buy one of those and you run some
open source software on it there’s
packages you just download the binary
and run it um and then you configure it
you point it to demand pool I don’t know
if you even need an account I think you
probably need an account but you open an
account with demand pool you know you
point your miners at it and you run
Bitcoin core and you know it’s not zero
it’s certainly not a a a two-minute
project if you’re not an engineer you
don’t you know you’re not kind of used
to these kinds of setups but it’s also
not a one day project it’s a few Hour
project you know test it out try it with
a few of your Min mining rigs you know
take a few of them off the shelf Point
them to your point to your machine join
the Discord there’s a bunch of Engineers
there who would be happy to uh do as
much customer support as you need to get
going um yeah it it shouldn’t be too
hard I can see why people might be
intimidated a little bit but it’s time
to get off zero it’s time to slot this
into people’s you know business plans
for the next six months you know if
you’re a minor and you you know you got
to figure out when you have time to do
this but you know when next six months
you should be able to make some time to
at least get this tested get going get a
few of your devices on on demand pool
you know test it out um yeah
yeah yeah it is
um is scary to think about and I do
think um to put my minor hat on I think
again people have been so myopic
myopically focused on the cost side of
things particularly on the energy side
that they’ve just overlooked this and
again it snuck up I I don’t think people
understood that I don’t think anybody
understood that there was this large
proxy pool that people or this large
pool people boxing into until a couple
weeks ago right which is all the more
reason miners should be freaking out
like if your pool is lying to your face
about who your counterparty is why you
don’t want to do business with somebody
who’s going to lie to you about who your
counterparty is that’s not you know if
your counterparty is secretly bit M and
your pool’s not willing to tell you that
you don’t want to do business with them
yeah no now again conspiratorial like
was this
China’s was it a smoke and mirror
campaign smoke we’re Banning
mining um Kick all the actual as6 out
and then control the pools to censor
Bitcoin
eventually could be and then another
thing we need to jump to uh
conspiratorial in the Chinese government
sense we know bitm has a long history of
of a desire to control Bitcoin um
and
ver a deep misunderstanding of why this
is bad um you know certainly a big part
of that was Jihan when Jihan was CEO
he’s not there anymore he’s not
supposedly not there anymore um so you
know maybe that culture has improved but
but historically that’s been a part of
the company a part of jihan’s whole Mo
was he wanted to own Bitcoin by owning
the pool that everyone mined on and
having everyone you know bow down to him
and forcing everyone to use a pool you
know basically if you want the new uh if
you want the new as6 you got to use our
pool and you got to let us have uh you
know control Bitcoin or use one of our
proxy pools or one of the pools we you
know at the time I don’t think they were
necessarily proxies although I don’t
know that anyone checked at the time but
uh you know they certainly had a number
of pools that they were let’s say very
very chummy with yeah not even Gian now
at bit Deere there’s still arms length
connection to bitm pretty sure they’re
supplying all bit deer’s machines
so still a close
relationship I’m sure
yeah it’s uh it’s not
good no it’s not but luckily again
luckily you know the technologists have
done their job here and miners have
options or at least one option right now
and hopefully with uh eventually braid
poool you know I don’t know where braid
poool is in terms of shipping but you
know hopefully that’s an option too for
folks
um and
yeah so miners will have options and
miners should be should be exploring
those options now you know that needs to
be on the road map in the very short
term uh because we’re in such a bad
place right now and I you know I think
the the Bitcoin Community needs to start
thinking about what the long-term plan
is here if miners don’t start taking
these options yeah what hash function
would you would you uh prefer to
use honestly just leave shot 256 but use
a 64-bit time stamp let’s just fix the
time stamp issue keep shot 256 who cares
and we’ll yeah we’ll just uh break all
the miners and replace them with new
ones that would
be if for what is it Murphy’s Law
anything that can go wrong will go wrong
um that would be uh just from a pure
masochist masochistic uh just uh
infinitely curious to see what the worst
casee scenario would be like and how it
would play out that would be to be clear
you don’t want it to get to that point
freaks but as Matt puts forth like if
things don’t change it could very well
get to that point and for historical
context again last time this was
discussed it’s well it’s
uh the the hash fun changing of the hash
function is known as the nuclear option
where it’s like a last resort miners are
[ __ ] around you you hit the button
you change the has
function yeah induce a little chaos it
is it is hopefully the last resort but
you know again I don’t I don’t
understand why anyone can be bullish on
bitcoin right
now the ETFs are here
Matt yeah price is going up but got brc2
tokens price is going up but I I or
Price had been going up but like I don’t
understand you know if you’re in this
for just the price what are you doing
you know and and even if you are in this
for just the price where do you think
the price comes from The Price is only
goes up because people view Bitcoin as
[ __ ] you money if miners can censor the
the blockchain then Bitcoin is not [ __ ]
you money yeah I completely agreed and
to be clear I was being factious um the
uh I know the uh yeah the the number go
up amnesia Mark
Goodwin use that term for the first time
on the show last week I thought it was a
very good term but that is the thing
that number go up does it induces
Amnesia where
people don’t care about the properties
that make Bitcoin valuable in the first
place they just care about the dollar
value um and forget about the things
that are important um right yeah we need
a
slogan any good uh any good attempt to
drive Char slogan fire the miners fire
the miners
yeah light of fire on miners ask
threatening to fire the
miners the uh I was going to say
something it’s a bit too UNC to put on
there but
um that’s the thing these Chinese pools
have a lot of control and historically
they’ve been very opaque and hard to
deal with hard to get in control of
unless you’re Chinese
um so that’s the interesting thing like
I find it hard to believe that any of
the Chinese mining pools particularly
that was directly controlled by bitmain
so btc.com and amool would ever
willingly adopt something like Shon
V2 yeah maybe not and you know and if if
20% of the network hash power is still
on these Legacy pools okay well you know
that’s what it is but if you know 60% of
the network hash power is on these
Legacy
pools then maybe Bitcoin needs new hash
power
do you think this could be solved in a
legal way in terms of um the way these
pools are actually constructed from a
legal perspective so I’ve heard the idea
floated where you create this pool that
would be similar to ampool in these
regards but it’s a nonprofit with very
specific with a very specific mandate
which is
to
uh gather transactions that get the
highest fee within a block and then
broadcast a transaction then you could
proxy pool into that and do things on
top of it but it you know you’re still
you’re still subject to whatever
jurisdiction that pool is based in so
you know now we have this one big Mega
pool based in the US and the US
government you know in four years or in
eight years or in 12 years or in 16
years we elect somebody who decides they
want to censor Bitcoin and the US
government says Bitcoin is now censored
and so it is yeah you know as long as As
long as it’s the case that we have these
large single entities that are
responsible for these
things there’s yeah you know we’re we’re
we’re setting ourselves up for trouble
yeah I wonder if some of these larger
minor should just I mean that’s a
shame of the large scale miners is most
of them are public and so they be Holden
to quarterly filings and shareholder
updates and they can’t really stomach
the variance risk I think that’s
why brains suffered a big hash rate leak
when they were pplns is
um they had publicly traded miners that
can stomach the variants um but ideally
if you I mean I get I get nut stomaching
variants but pplns is not super high
variance it’s only High variance when
your pool is particularly small right
which brains was brains wasn’t a very
large pool um so they ended up with high
variant but you know you can have a much
larger pool it’s pplns
and his phone die his phone probably
died you know then minor in those cases
we see so even when you know even when
you see these big pools uh even when you
see these big pools that have very
little variance uh you still see myos
demanding F PPS because it still just
seems a little better for them right and
it is really detrimental to bitcoin
detrimental to their
pools yeah
we lost you there for a few seconds but
I think I gred what you’re what you’re
saying yeah
um is it going to be a hard problem to
solve again because you have a lot of
capital sunk sunk into this you have a
lot of business relationships a lot of
tough conversations are going to need to
be had by large miners in the pools that
they Point their hash yeah I mean it is
a tough problem to solve but also not a
tough problem to solve right it’s it’s
it’s tough in the sense that like a lot
of what people do now and they want to
keep doing what they do now but also not
tough and that stratum V2 gives you a
release value you know you just change
the software you’re running and you can
keep doing the same thing you were
already doing you can keep the same
payout structure you can keep the same
you know all the same uh contracts you
have in place with your pools you keep
the same
pools and all you do is you change the
software and suddenly bitcoin’s
decentralized again right and so that’s
the beauty of something like Strat to
when you do custom work selection is
nothing really has to change but you
know miners just have to change the
software yeah again I’m trying to think
of how to even start this conver or I
mean this is a way to start the
conversation but actually
drive drive
change um well you send them this
podcast you tell them that we’re going
to change the [ __ ] proof of workout
from under them so well they better
[ __ ] get off their ass and do
something about
it yeah I don’t think the logistics that
would go into that like there would have
to be like a tangible alternative in
terms of like as6 that you could
actually acquire and plug in once the
proof of work function has been changed
like do they exist yeah yeah I mean you
know we can get there um you know if
this if miners really aren’t going to do
anything then we can absolutely figure
out the logistics like Bitcoin Network
you know bitcoiners need a decentralized
system that’s why all the bitcoiners are
here and if the miners can’t you know
can’t provide a decentralized system if
miners have no interest in providing a
decentralized system then the coiners
can figure out the logistics you know
there’ll be a lot of value in being the
first one with an Asic for a new proof
of work function um and so I’m sure
people would would build it I’m sure
people would buy it I’m sure people
would plug it
in
yeah then you have
another yeah this is a [ __ ] show then
you have a problem there if like
somebody Corners the market of those a68
chain sh and it’s just like centralized
when you
relaunch yeah I mean you know I it can’t
be worse than today right 50% in one
pool it can’t be a hell of a lot worse
yeah before sh and V2
like what option do miners have now to
help reduce this problem I mean Point
your hash at one of I
get yeah get off one of these bit main
proxy pools um you know get off yeah
really that um you know Foundry is not
great either but you know look at that
um you know just care about where your
hash is pointed just care
you know if if any material number of
miners gets off these bit main proxy
pools and off F2 pool or off F2 pool off
Foundry then suddenly we’ll have another
big pool you know it doesn’t take it
takes a bunch of people getting together
if if you’re really you know if you’re a
minor and you’re saying you know all
right you know maybe I’m going to test
stratum V2 over the next six to 12
months it’s going to take me a while to
get to it um what can I do now you know
I’m currently siging on one of these
pools that was lying to me that’s
actually a proxy for bitm proxy for
antpool um what do I do well you know go
to a bunch of other miners say hey look
here’s a problem we need to do something
about it collectively let’s all switch
to you know demand pool or something
demand also also offers sh on V1
endpoints you know you can go I I you
know use demand as an example there’s
I’m sure there’s a handful of other
small pools that that aren’t proxy pools
um I not super up on the list of all the
small pools in Bitcoin that don’t have
material hash power but you know you
pick a new winner like it doesn’t you
know a bunch of miners get together and
say that’s the one we’re going to use
you all switch to it and overnight
there’s a new big pool and you don’t
suffer any increase in
variant
no it’s a shame like one of the big
Alternatives right now would be ocean I
mean it’s not big but one of the
Alternatives is ocean pool yeah Ocean’s
another option no but people won’t go to
that because they’re they’re mining the
most profitable blocks so that’s you got
you got Uncle tin foil Marty right now
it’s like is this whole ordinals be C20
like a a way to lock people into these
pools CU they’re more willing to
facilitate those trans the only ocean is
the only minor that’s not willing to to
include that stuff so you know any other
pool or Ocean’s the only pool any other
pool will do right just pick any other
pool um for the few who are willing to
to suffer a little plus income for you
know some kind of philosophical argument
use ocean fine um you know please just
don’t use don’t use one of these bit
main proxy pools
yeah yeah going back to G I mean it it
is astonishing how uh complacent people
have gotten anchoring back to gash I
mean people Peter Todd sent out a tweet
and people left that pool within
hours uh yeah a lot of it it lost a lot
of hash rate pretty quick you know it it
still had a lot of hash rate for a while
um but it did eventually you know lose a
lot of hash rate that did kind of
collapse um I
think even then I thought you know I
distinctly remember a number of
conversations even all the way back then
where people were kind of saying look
miners are not as in it for Bitcoin
they’re not as willing to change pools
when there’s a big
as they should be and this is
problematic like even back then when it
took you know a month or whatever for
enough hash rate to really you know gash
had to tell people they weren’t
accepting new uh users you know it
really it took a lot of effort to get
people to stop using so much gash um but
they did they did collapse and they did
collapse after you know a few months
they lost a lot of hash power pretty
quick but even then it was a problem and
today
we just see no movement at all like oh
yeah this my pool you know this business
that is core to my business that is
handling all of the finances all of the
money that I’m making is coming via this
thirdparty company that it turns out was
lying to me and people are kind of okay
with
that yeah and that’s for no just going
back to
uh again now F2 pool and pull btc.com
brains
via
Foundry yeah I mean the that’s that’s
what I’m trying to gra like how much of
the A6 that are plugged in around the
world are owned by
Chinese companies or
individuals who I mean just being in the
industry that’s the way the Chinese work
they Point their hash rate at Chinese
mining
pools um and do it’s a shame and it’s a
shame that you know Pand went under it
Pand made a big dent in that market was
a third party and then they went
bankrupt and got apparently acquired or
at least in some way shape or form ended
up being a proxy pool for an poool um so
it’s a shame that that all these folks
were demanding fixed paper share when
it’s just not sustainable unless you are
more than a pool as a business unless
you have a lot more going on in your
business because you need the Deep
balance sheet
yeah yeah I’m trying to think maybe you
go to k and C
minor big Club um you have Lincoln
Lincoln Pool which is probably a good
option for people as well it’s very
small
but yeah miners wake up yeah we’re going
to fire you and you know all the miners
you know we need uh we need a big mining
conference big meeting of all the miners
to come together sit in a room and pick
a new winner maybe Hong Kong maybe we
come to an agreement in Hong Kong or
something like that clearly in Austin
because where all the miners are right
somewhere in West Texas we’ll pick a
pick a random town
somewhere the
uh ah these are messy problems these are
the problems that come B it’s hard in
the short term in the long term miners
just need to start testing Strat on B2
and need to start moving to other
Solutions yeah I’m telling you this is
going to get released and everybody’s
going to be like he’s fearmongering
because he wants Strat and B too um he’s
incentivized well you know they can keep
saying that right up until Bitcoin
change is proof of work and then they’re
going to be real sad
yeah yeah there’s been a lot of [ __ ]
on the uh the mining pool side not only
with this centralization of block
production and templating but yeah like
with the
with the out- of- band transactions I
mean even outside the Chinese mining
pools you have it’s not [ __ ] it’s a
business model but it is a new
interesting variable within the mining
industry slipstream from
Marathon we have me. spaces transaction
accelerator which I think is preferable
to so far those things haven’t so far
those things haven’t minted real
substantial Revenue some Revenue some
real Revenue certainly but not huge
Revenue you know I’m hopeful that they
don’t ever mint huge Revenue uh we’ve
seen similar things in the past that
haven’t minted huge Revenue um but we’ll
see um and I think you know at some
point Bitcoin core is going to be forced
to to make relay policy a little more
relaxed you know Bitcoin C tends to be
very relaxed you know most the relay
policy that they do enforce is you know
if you have a a big transaction it
becomes actually computationally
difficult to calculate an optimal block
template so Bitcoin Corp prefers small
transactions because it’s the only way
they can build with an optimal block
template um but you know uh these things
will will have to change as as demand
from users changes because you know
Bitcoin core will have to create you
know has to create good block templates
there’s no other way around it um so
we’ll see what happens there but I’m
cautiously optimistic that none of
these more fancy transaction
construction things will ever be a huge
part of mining Revenue in
Bitcoin that’s good to know all right
everybody needs to go test stratum V2 I
think it’ll be in beta for what six more
months maybe longer well it depends on
when people get around to testing it you
know if nobody tests it it’ll sit in
beta forever if people actually start
pointing hash power at it and testing it
and saying like yep I can select my own
custom work I can mine on demand pool
and I found you know however many shares
then will be at a beta in a month you
know so it’s it’s a question of of
people using it should we publicly shame
some people right
now uh if you have people you want to
shame sounds good to
me got cormet cormet Let’s test it out
Riot Let’s test it out yeah yeah you
know get off zero cathedra is it on the
board I’ll bring it up a
cathedra all right I need to test
it um
yeah it’s uh I think that’s not a
problem with Strat V2 but I think it’s
taken so
long and maybe there’s uh an air of is
it really here it’s been talked about
for so long like yeah is this just
[ __ ] we had Foundry Implement that’s
the other thing too Foundry is like we
have Strat V2 live and it’s like yeah
that’s just the the cryptographic nature
of um sending hashes to the pool um not
really
yeah yeah and then to be clear I’m not
actually 100% sure where they are on
that so that’s that’s where I thought
were and brains also
announced that they have in brains OS at
least maybe it was brains yeah but that
is that is only the the standard block
construction for that’s not the uh the
custom work selection version yeah
another fre bit main they just announced
that uh or they didn’t even announce
that they just released their latest
firmware which makes it impossible to
back door so something like brains
OS um right or other third party lock
down next next version they’re going to
tie to their pools you can only mind on
their pools you know you think
so that would be I mean that’s always
been there that’s always been their
go-to you know we want more users on our
pools so that they can extract fees
eventually lock people
in yeah that would be interesting that
would be misstep it would give luckily
uh
within
your
corporate uh umbrella was a good
announcement to see today the uh yeah
the block mining block anoun three
nanometer tape out that’s good we need
that we got audio Lane audio line as
well obviously a micro BT which I’m
partial towards I love their machines R
them
personally um Intel may be back in the
game yeah but may needs to check and
it is weird because bitmain the mining
industry would not be as robust as it is
without bitmain historically but bitm
has been extremely antagonistic and
scummy in a lot of
ways yeah all right we do it every
episode that we record uh you were most
optimistic two years ago now you seem
least optimistic uh percentage of
Bitcoin succeeds right
now three three three% I really think I
don’t see you know miners aren’t getting
off zero and like you mentioned there’s
a lot of miners who you know there’s a
lot of Western miners in the US who
might get off zero here and might start
testing and might start helping out and
might start mining strategy too but
there’s a lot of miners who it’s going
to take a lot of work to reach and you
know we got to get up zero we got to get
some of these bigger miners in the west
getting moving
but I don’t know I don’t know what’s
going to happen to to the long tail and
I don’t know what’s going to happen a
lot of hash power in Kazakhstan China
and whatever um we’ve got a long way to
go to to make Bitcoin
decentralized and is there a forcing
function once Straton V2 is adopted by a
certain percentage of the network where
it
becomes uh not uneconomical but um less
economical to run Strat in
B1 maybe not really um no I mean it
doesn’t change a lot about the economics
um you know I would strongly encourage
is p is out there to go start stealing
hash power because strum V1 is insecure
and your ISP could be siphoning off some
hash power so I’d strongly encourage
that if you’re an ISP and you’re in
Kazakhstan go steal some hash power make
some free money um but no sadly not okay
maybe that’s what we need the attack
from the ISP is to force
decentralization to layer all right the
mining so we bankrupt all the uh fixed
paper share
pools go with hold some blocks go bankr
the fix paper share
pools Matt came on and shows violence
today we’re gonna block with hold the
IPS are going to attack and hash right
jack uh we’re going to change the hash
function uh we’re going to find
miners yeah let’s do it all right well I
knew this was going to be this type of
episode when you uh when you DM me last
week I had a
feeling sorry had to happen how’s
everything else going
Life’s good Life’s good yeah you look
can’t complain it’s nice in New York
starting to be
spring yeah un bummed I missed you last
week missed you by a couple days yeah
yeah well I had a event in Miami sadly I
missed a bunch of the having parties too
but oh well never fun next one we
celebrating our own demit you
know would be
poetic all right well thank you for uh
keeping us on our toes um and if you’re
minor listening out there think about
this uh
long-term viability of your business is
that is at risk because uh Bitcoin is a
very important project and if push does
come to shove uh the nuclear option is
there and will be hit if it needs to be
hit nobody wants to hit it let’s not let
it get to that point get off your
ass stop focusing on the energy stuff
myopically uh we’ve got a network side
of things that that is yeah and it
doesn’t take many resources to to deal
with the network side of things you know
just takes a few hours a week from your
from your Ops folks you figure it out
yeah all right well I’m going to go text
some miners maybe write a newsletter I
think that’s what I write a newsletter
about today and then uh we’ll post this
uh tomorrow just get the message out
there cool all right thank you it’s
great seeing you uh under these uh very
depressing circumstances but we got to
get it out
there yeah yeah we do we got to get up
zero all right get off zero we’ll fire
the miners peace and love

Marty sits down with Matt Corallo to discuss the Antpool situation and how the centralization issue can be solved.

Matt on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheBlueMatt

0:00 – Intro
1:27 – The pool problem
11:05 – Miners haven’t switched
18:26 – Miner priorities
24:01 – Taking action
36:34 – Gradually, Then Suddenly
37:12 – Addressing bias
39:22 – Is switching difficult?
42:37 – Nuclear option if someone takes control
47:53 – Solutions
57:14 – Complacency
1:03:03 – Go test StratumV2
1:06:10 – Bitcoin success percentage and wrapping up

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