$50 Trillion Is Coming To Bitcoin & Crypto

$50 Trillion Is Coming To Bitcoin & Crypto

I think that we’re just in the in the
still in the very very beginning of the
global investment Community getting
exposure to the native crypto stuff
Bitcoin salana ethereum etc etc and so
that’s going to go to to you know what
is it now two and a half trillion I
think that’s going to go to 50 trillion
you know over the next 10 years and if
not sooner and you know that’s going to
change
everything all right guys bang bang I’ve
got bill here uh bill it feels like
during the entire crypto winter there
was massive scrutiny there was tons of
problems with companies that offered
trading of cryptocurrencies yield on
cryptocurrencies borrowing earning Etc
you all were one of those companies it
felt like every regulatory body was
scrutinizing this business model in
these companies but you’ve come out the
other side and you have kind of a new
twist and some regulatory approvals that
I think a lot of people are wondering
what are you doing and how did you get
this done and so maybe you can just walk
us through like what happened during
that bare market and then how did you
guys get to the other side of this uh
with this new regulatory approval sure
so there were there were really three
aspects to what I’ll call the lending
yield space right there was staking
itself which is basically just earning
yield via staking ethereum or staking
Solana or any other stable proof of
stake assets then there’s the yield via
lending which is could either be direct
lending collateralized you know
borrowing dollars collateralized and
Bitcoin and then there’s defi uh based
yield so that’s that’s kind of the yield
is part two and then third is borrowing
against your own assets right so that’s
just that’s just literally lending out
and so we’ll come back to the lending in
a bit but on the staking and and
borrowing yield side right the states in
particular came down certain States came
down very hard on players in the space
that these were security offerings now
for most companies in the space it
didn’t matter because they died right
Celsius Voyager blockfi you know Etc ETA
they’re gone so there’s nothing to fight
other than who gets the money back right
in there basically and that’s a function
of the fact that these were all pulled
Assets in a in a bank-like structure
where when you pull the asset you became
a liability on the company’s balance
sheet meaning your Bitcoin that you’re
earning yield on became a balance a
liability on Celsius is balance sheet
right so so so that was a major problem
in and of itself independent of the fact
that they thought that staking in many
states like California and others was a
security offering Okay so that all
basically got shut down in Via a myriad
means including settlements with us for
our old business okay to this day in
like 15 or 20 States you can’t stake
ethereum or salana on a whole bunch of
exchanges in the United States okay and
and that’s because basically they’re
fighting with coinbase and others that
that those staking processes where
they’re in the middle are security
offerings now my personal feelings on
that don’t matter we capitulated and we
said look we’re going to settle this out
and we’re not going to do it that way
anymore so to your question what we did
is we went back to the drawing board and
we said okay let’s let’s just assume
that we’re gonna bite the bullet and
play nice and and basically say that you
know we’re gonna offer some type of
Securities account for doing this in a
very simple manner what’s the most
straightforward way to do that in other
words come in and register and when we
analyze what we realized is is that
there is a wealth advisory model in the
United
States that should allow you to do this
so we investigated we documented we
argued with lawyers over the course of
almost a year and we basically came up
with a registered invest investment
advisory model ra model that allows us
to offer yield staking lending basic
investment in crypto through again
through this ra model but it also it’s
it’s beautiful for a couple of reasons
one you’re not a liability on my balance
sheet
right which means um if we go away you
still retain title to your assets so for
the people listening to this it’s kind
of a tough pill to swallow who are still
fighting you know with the Estates of
Celsius and FTX and blockfi and Voyager
to get their assets back that can’t
happen here okay because you’re
retaining title and it uses what we call
a separately managed account structure
which many high net worth investors are
familiar with from the equity space smas
manag trillions of dollars in assets in
the United States States and similar
models around the world so to my
knowledge we were able to get approval
for this through a lot of hard work on
the legal side and are the first to do
so in the United States so there are
other Ras for crypto in the United
States but they’re not directly for
consumers via an account model doing
yield staking lending so you can deposit
Bitcoin in your SMA and borrow dollars
out right um and we use defi this is the
cool part we use defi for 100% of our
lending and and yield and staking
Services right Abra is not a
counterparty to any transaction in the
system we’re simply deploying out of the
SMA on behalf of our clients which is
what an advisor is supposed to do uh and
that’s a big breakthrough as far as I
know I’m not familiar with any other
peer play service that does yield where
it’s 100% based on defi now so when you
think about this new model there’s
really three components in in my mind
there’s the regulatory kind of structure
and approval there is the SMA component
and then there is the interfacing with
defi there’s a lot of bells and whistles
but like those are kind of three main
components right yeah on the regulatory
approval uh I use approval specifically
because you can’t just elect to be an
raia and all of a sudden like you just
start acting like an RA you got to go
you got to present an application the or
and other regulatory bodies all evaluate
this and there’s somebody who says okay
yep thumbs up you get approved knock
yourself out what was that process like
and I’m assuming it wasn’t just like
sending the application a day later they
send back the approval so what did you
have to do to get through that to
actually become an approved Raa as a
matter of fact I think a day later they
sent back denied so and and we kind of
expected it you know we we lawyered up
we we have multiple law firms I mean
look the last couple of years has been a
legal nightmare for everyone who
survived all right I’ve talked I’ve
spoken to every CEO that you know in
this space at one time or another over
the last couple of years and it has been
brutal uh now it’s it’s it’s it’s less
brutal than dying right to a degree
because you know you you gota I mean
distress every day okay so no no
sympathy gained I’m sure on any of that
but we basically lawyered up last summer
documented every Nuance of what we
thought we would need to document put an
entirely new compliance program in place
because this model is different than the
way we operated via retail in the past
put an entirely new platform in place
because of the separately managed
account structure that I described
before that’s a new architecture right
we have to put staff through compliance
training you have all kinds of
disclosure requirements just to get to
the point where we
submitted the application I’m not using
the legal terminology but whatever the
the right term is the application to the
SEC took us the better part of of almost
a year okay so it’s a lot of upfront
work so this idea of of you want to be
in raia on Tuesday you you wake up and
on Wednesday you’re in raia that’s
that’s never that’s not gonna happen
that’s nonsense okay so yes tremendous
amount of work you lawyer up hundreds of
thousands of dollars in legal fees um
you know more than one interation with
the SEC a whole bunch of compliance
training and new systems uh your
Communications get monitored when you’re
you know when you come in and register
etc etc and then talk about the smas
right obviously lots of investors use
them uh it would have helped investors
in some of these cases uh with these
other platforms um do you think that the
industry now like smas are going to end
up being the standard or do you still
see they’re being kind of pulled funds
uh and the smas is one option but but
there will be plenty of assets still
kept in other
models I I think you would have to be
crazy to put you know six seven eight
nine figures of assets into a pulled
model given everything we’ve learned
over the last few years so many people
have talked about this you know the
mismatch between how crypto transactions
move how Banks work um you know let talk
about the ETFs for a second what
happened a couple of weeks ago when when
Iran sent uh drones and and and and
aircraft to to Israel what happened to
bitcoin that weekend and so you know
retail investors okay I’ve got a bunch
of you know few thousand dollars in my
raia Ira or my 401k you know the price
went down fine but if you’re sitting on
millions of dollars in crypto and you
basically want to hedge yourself on
Saturday night can’t do it right banks
are closed more than they’re open right
stock markets closed more than it’s open
so I would posit that a vehicle that
trades
247 the same way Bitcoin trades um and
and makes that accessible 247 is the
right way to do this and highet worth
investors have known this for decades
right where is now making it available
to everyone and and that’s a
breakthrough so
so exchanges are not meant for basically
buold investing they’re meant for
trading and speculation that’s fine
there’s a place for that right we’re
basically saying there’s a place or
investors to invest and that’s different
from
Trading and then talk to me about the
interfacing with defi obviously um it’s
exciting I think that you know there’s a
lot of people probably say hey this is
part of the like promise of a lot of
this
um but at the same time are there risks
or how do you think about like the pros
and cons of this decision both for your
business and for the user so so the way
I think about accessing defi through
Abra now through Abra Capital Management
is that we want to make the risks the
same as if you knew what you were doing
and accessing D5 via
metamask okay so um with the caveat that
we’re not going to go full on dgen and
and and choose brand new protocols that
have $10 million total value locked and
make them accessible to our high net
worth clients okay we’re going to do um
upfront homework as we have for years
because we’ve been using D5 for a long
time it’s just this is the first time
we’re making it available as a standard
okay so what we do is we go in and we
choose right the defi systems that have
the most tvl are the most liquid um have
the most kind of tried and true
transaction volume and represent the
best investment opportunities in terms
of yield interest rates etc etc for our
clients and we make those available to
them and basically what’s happening is
it’s like the advisor is deploying via
an via a metamask like model but in a
way that our clients don’t have to
understand this conversation the risk
disclosures associated with dii they can
read right to the sec’s point all along
uh people aren’t disclosing the risk
well we do right there’s a long set of
documents that they have access to
they’ve seen that are actually on the
sec’s website that disclose all this and
the clients can read them in detail ask
questions or not it’s it’s their choice
and then they tell us where they want to
deploy and we manage the deployment for
them but again 100% defi based and so
far the clients seem to love it and what
are the uh advantages on the defi
obviously there’s the decentralization
and and kind of no counterparty or a
different counterparty that the user is
interfacing with um but are there higher
yields available are there lower fee you
know structures like what are some of
the other things that the clients now
are starting to experience so so so
there’s several advantages and you you
you alluded to one which is you’re not
you’re not taking named corporate
counterparty risk meaning you’re not
taking counterparty risk to ABRA you’re
not taking counterparty risk to a named
borrower which was the model that you
know the dead companies in the uh in the
yield space were doing you’re you’re
you’re taking pure defi risk now if you
if you remember in the early days of the
Celsius bankruptcy all the nothing was
getting repaid with one exception they
had some exposure to to defy and they
had to pay back those loans or they were
going to get liquidated and they did
because the system worked as correct as
it was supposed to and you couldn’t stop
it right meaning there’s no off switch
and that’s how way it’s supposed to work
right so so the beauty there is is that
you’re not taking any counterparty risk
other than the fact that you’re taking
smart contract risk and we’re leveraging
smart contracts that have been tested in
some cases for years now and that’s what
we want right and we explain that to our
clients and so the other benefit is that
yes there’s opportunities that we can
recommend that our clients rotate into
on occasion because you know Bitcoin
might be paying you know abnormally high
yield like nine or 10 percent which
happens on occasion and a lot of times
you can’t capture it very quickly you
know if you don’t know what you’re doing
as a kind of a metamask user who doesn’t
know how to deploy into contracts and we
we can text a client or or email a
client and say hey want to get on the
phone because there’s an opportunity
here for something we’ve been testing
with our own money that we think you
should consider deploying into and we
can now recommend that fairly quickly uh
for our clients and it’s very very easy
for our quants uh our analysts to test
these new uh these new opportunities as
they unfold and they are every day and
and we have a group that does nothing
but test those things and so that’s the
advantage that our clients have now and
then talk about uh what all call uh kind
of high net worth accredited you know
private uh clients institutions and then
you also are able to service
unaccredited investors as well and so
like what are the differences that
you’re seeing across these different
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oh yeah so so I would say on the high
end we have mining clients that take
advantage of Structured Products hedging
you know they’re they’re using uh Auto
Liquidation capabilities on our
over-the-counter trading desk and you
know obviously our lower end our retail
clients don’t need that uh most of them
want to buy and hold and they can earn
some yield on their dollars that’s fine
so again on the highend be everything
from you know large block orders for
trading um you know hedging positions um
via you know the mining uh you know
mining Auto liquidations to uh crypto
ATM networks that have to replenish on a
Sunday when markets are screaming uh we
do a lot of that as well so so that’s
kind of a high-end very um traditional
Prime model right they might be looking
to trade on credit which we wouldn’t be
in a position to do for retail for
example so they’ll on board and send us
financials and go through risk
management and things like that high net
worth retail probably the the most
bespoke thing they’re interested in
doing is borrowing against their Bitcoin
right so they’ll basically say oh I’m
gonna Park x million dollars worth of
bitcoin and I want to borrow y dollars
and so we’ll basically again use defi
through the ra to manage those loans for
them going forward which is really cool
right so basically like they’re not
taking counterparty RIS to ABRA even for
the
loan so they’re just borrowing directly
from a di5 protocol and then on the low
end it could easily be you know I want
to buy $25,000 worth of bitcoin I’m
happy to park it in a yield account I
want to leave $100,000 of stable coins
and a dollar cost average in over time
it’s as simple as that right so you got
a whole gamut of services that we’re
able to offer now because we’ve
carefully put the right legal structures
in place one of the interesting I think
kind of developments that we’re going to
have to see here is
uh for the last couple years it’s been
like Bitcoin and crypto are one end of
the spectrum traditional finances on the
other the ETF is starting to bridge the
gap is your vision that eventually we
will just see like I’ll have an
investment account and I could have
stocks I can have crypto I can have kind
of these different assets and like maybe
companies like Abra are actually backing
into being full-fledged kind of
Financial Service uh providers yeah yeah
so when you’re fullon in crypto putting
real world assets aside you’re inside
the The Matrix right that’s how that’s
my favorite analogy and an ETF kind of
like an exchange represents a Hardline
into the
Matrix the The Exchange Hardline is good
because it works 247 except for Bank
wires right those can only be processed
you know 15 and 20 hours a week ETFs can
only basically buy and sell 30 hours a
week 35 hours a week whatever it is so
those hard lines have a lot of
limitations the SMA puts you inside the
Matrix separately managed account puts
you inside the Matrix so you’re using
something that in the background works
very similar to how you and I would just
use metamask to deploy in a defile
that’s super cool and then and then we
also give you the wire access to be able
to get your stable coins into the system
U etc etc so I think that this is the
future for wealth management not only
for crypto but we’ll stop because real
world assets once they’re tokenized are
going to be are going to end up these
Securities accounts as well and then you
can basically make tokenized real estate
fungible with Bitcoin through an SMA and
then choose which asset you’re going to
borrow against using some Oracle to
decide what the price or value of the
assets is in order to give you the loan
super super interesting right so so I do
think that there’s a bifurcation coming
between trading and investing right and
trading makes sense on exchanges you
know through our Prime business just
like others have Prime businesses and
investing traditionally through advisors
we’re just giving you a Next Generation
architecture that’s still compliant with
the existing
rules and I saw recently that there’s a
proposal to make the stock market trade
247 um I don’t know if it’ll get
approved or not but uh gets at some of
these you know points that maybe the
crypto industry has pushed forward by
just existing uh where there’s traders
in the traditional Market who are like
hey these guys could trade 24/7 like why
can’t we do you think that stuff will
will happen and and like are you
anticipating many of the advantages that
the crypto Market has had will come to
these traditional assets sure so look
we’ve been we used to call it straight
through processing I was at Gman in the
early 90s and we were talking about
straight through processing 30 years ago
and here we are still talking about it
and it doesn’t exist I think there are a
lot of entities I’m looking up here just
trying to think this through but I think
there’s a lot of entities
disincentivized for this to happen in
the US in the short term I do think that
t plus Z or straight through processing
time settlement 247 for equities is
going to happen outside the US
relatively soon in certain markets and I
think it will be a good attractor
meaning meaning list on our Market in
and I’m making this up now in Dubai or
Abu Dhabi or Singapore markets that have
been open to this stuff or in
Switzerland Switzerland a little older
might take a while but but probably more
open than the US anyway and that’ll be
in attraction because this is It’s a
competitive Planet you don’t have to
list your US Stock in on NASDAQ or NYC
you can list it in Asia or Europe or
Singapore whatever whatever right and so
I think that this is going to be a
competitive Advantage for certain
markets that can move faster than the US
I think the implication of your question
was what is the US going to do and I
think that we will get to you know from
T plus5 to to t plus Z over the next X
years I don’t know what x is I would
venture a guess that it’s less it’s it’s
it’s less than 10 and more than three uh
and and we’ll probably require a new
Administration that is more investor
friendly and and recognizes that the
tokenization of assets isn’t the second
coming of
Satan you mentioned other geographies
what are you all seeing with either
clients and other geographies or
Partners um in terms of their enthusiasm
their Capital flows you know various
things that they’re doing on that
front yeah so look I I I uh I’m super
bullish on a bunch of things I mean real
world assets started with stable coins
and by the way I I actually group
Bitcoin in the real world asset category
now which I’m maybe I’m the first to do
that I don’t know because we’re seeing
people borrow against it so once you can
borrow against the commodity to me it’s
a real world asset um but we’re seeing
like you know globally miners trying to
figure this out do I do I what portion
do I liquidate where do I take risk how
do I hedge how do I borrow huge flows
there getting inbound questions all the
time can you help us with the the
Overflow on stuff that we can fulfill
the exchanges on the on the ETF
um we do I do a ton of work you know
with um High net worth investors I speak
at a lot of high net worth uh investor
events not not crypto specific right I
generally this is more like you know how
do I diversify away from uh you know
real estate stocks into other or
uncorrelated things and it feels like an
order of magnitude more interesting and
even bigger than it did in 21 when we
were starting to ride the yield wave
back then right so this feels bigger and
I would posit that institutions outside
of crypto native aren’t here yet we’ve
talked about it and when we say Black
Rock black rock is servicing retail
today right if you think about who’s
buying these ETFs it’s 401ks it’s it’s
IRAs it’s it’s it’s you know the the E
trades right they’re now we’re now
seeing I’m hearing permission coming
from institutions to participate in some
cases via the ETF so I do predict in the
second half of the year we’re going to
see a lot of Institutions come in Via
these Equity Vehicles which has been
fantastic marketing for abis so far
right because when I explain like we
talked about earlier like the difference
between buying an ETF and an SMA if if
you if you’re investing more than half a
million dollars the SMA wins almost
every time right for the reasons that
we’ve already talked about and so so so
I think that there’s the existing flows
and we have I think a pretty good
understanding of where the new flows are
going to be coming from over the next
few few months and years
and then what is the kind of end state
for Abra over the next you know five or
10 years so you’re talking a lot about
the industry but like what is the thing
that you guys are driving towards or
when you guys sit down in your product
meeting that kind of product um you know
uh pipeline what does that look like so
so I’m going to put the legal
terminology aside for a second so I’m
going to use some terms that the that
the Regulators don’t like me to use so
so so I I see Abra longterm as a big
global bank for crypto okay now I’m not
using the term the way The Regulators
agree with or whatever I’m just saying
what does it mean to be a bank it means
you can hold your stuff you can you can
earn interest on your stuff and you can
borrow against your stuff right U you
know whether it’s a helck on a house or
or borrowing against your Bitcoin which
I think is going to be the biggest and
fastest growing aspect of lending uh
over the next 20 years globally right
because if you have this asset that’s
just going to bajala and and people who
didn’t have access to credit can borrow
against it instantly that’s going to be
just a for Lending right so so I see
Abra as being on a path to becoming the
premier Global crypto Bank via whatever
regulatory means we have to do that now
when we first when you and I first met
like I don’t know maybe eight years ago
you know we were talking about money
transfer and payments um and I think
that’s all coming right now we’re
getting there in a in a different way
than what I had either predicted or
maybe even wanted versus when I first
had the ideas for all this free ethereum
was just Bitcoin but we’re getting there
right and and now we have stable coins I
had to invent a synthetic Dollar in the
early days of abber because there was no
ethereum I was just too early and now
all this infrastructure is there right I
can easily access defi to process loans
and do money transfer and all the things
I want to do and so we may be working
from the top down in terms of
Institutions High net worth investors
you know middle class investors and
hopefully sooner rather than later to
the bottom of the pyramid but you know
legally it’s it’s it’s unfortunately the
further down the pyramid you go from an
income perspective the harder it gets
legally which it should be the opposite
honestly but but we have what we have
and and so that’s my vision my vision is
to be the premier Global crypto bank
that Services every aspect of of the
income pyramid for you know the Next
Generation which is defi based and you
know we’re just going to make it easily
accessible to everyone starting at the
top and making our way down I think that
that is uh incredibly compelling as you
guys go to build it um the last thing
I’ll leave with you is uh there’s great
debate on um Bitcoin uh smart contract
platforms various assets Etc um what do
you think people’s portfolios look like
five or 10 years from now is it like
Bitcoin is a store of value and then all
these other things are kind of like
technology stocks that they’re you know
trying to figure out where value acrs or
how do you just think about like the
portfolio construction and how that will
evolve yeah dinner with a a very famous
CIO from a large raia last night and we
were having a raging debate about what
it means to to hold cash flow assets
like stock versus real estate versus
Bitcoin and and I was making the case
that every time I look at an investment
opportunity and I see a lot you know
I’ve been living in Silicon Valley for
30 years I compare it to my crypto
Holdings and I say you know do I believe
that the cash flow Potential from this
stock over five years warrants
me selling or giving up you know a piece
of my Bitcoin a piece of my salana a
piece of my ethereum and 99.9% of the
time right now the answer is no okay so
that’s me and I I have conviction for
why this is an exponentially growing
technology and how that Maps out but but
getting back to reality for the average
investor I do think you’re going to see
real world assets become tokenized
especially starting outside the US like
we talked about and you’re going to have
all these Investment Services that
basically make them all fungible meaning
I can hold real estate I can hold stocks
I can hold bonds I can hold crypto
native crypto um and and they’re all
fundable because they’re all tokens I
can trade across each other or borrow
against I can pull real estate Bitcoin
and and stocks and and and take one loan
right because it’s it’s in one
separately managed account and it has a
value so how is it going to break down
in terms of native crypto Holdings
versus stocks and real estate I don’t
know I I I think that we’re just in the
in the still in the very very beginning
of the global investment Community
getting exposure to the native crypto
stuff Bitcoin salana ethereum etc etc
and so that’s going to go to to you know
what is it now two and a half trillion I
think that’s going to go to 50 trillion
you know over the next 10 years and if
not sooner and you know that’s going to
change everything because now you’re
going to have these credit markets that
just weren’t possible before because
nobody had to knew how to give people in
the Philippines credit or give people in
India credit and they will know
right $50 trillion is a big number but
uh the trajectory seems to uh be headed
that way for sure uh so I think there’s
a lot of people who are are excited
about that happening but there’s a lot
of work to do between here and uh here
and there where can we send people to
find you on the internet or find out
more about what Abra is or if they want
to download sign up Etc yeah sure
abra.com is is is a great place to get
some more information on what we’re
doing I’m I’m reasonably active these
days on on Twitter uh billb barx on on
Twitter and and Abra Global on Twitter
so we’re pretty easy to find we’re out
there and uh we’re we’re pretty engaged
awesome Bill well listen thank you so
much for taking the time to do this I
think that people will will really enjoy
this one and uh as always we’ll
definitely do it again in the future
thanks B great to see you

Bill Barhydt is the Co-Founder & CEO of Abra. Abra is a global platform for digital asset prime services and wealth management, leveraging trusted DeFi expertise to connect the on-chain and off-chain ecosystems for private clients and institutions. By integrating trading, borrowing, lending, yield services and asset management into one offering, all underpinned by institutional risk management, Abra provides clients with actionable insights and a competitive edge. Abra’s client base includes a diverse range of private clients, family offices, hedge funds, venture capital and crypto infrastructure firms. In this conversation, we talk about the brand new regulatory approval as a registered investment advisor, what that means for Abra, how they can service both credited & uncredited investors now, why allowing basic financial services has been so difficult, and where the industry is going.

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