Journalist and author David Sanger on “The Takeout” | May 5, 2024

Journalist and author David Sanger on “The Takeout” | May 5, 2024

[Music] welcome to the very best part of my broadcast week we are at mcintyres it’s a happy Friday night here nice and loud and that’s good we love the Ambiance been here many times before we appreciate their Hospitality David Sanger is our special guest David Sanger is the White House and National Security correspondent for the New York Times he is also author of a new book I’m almost finished with it I really do try to read all the books before I have the guest on the show new cold Wars China’s rise Russia’s Invasion and America’s struggle to defend the West David great to see you great to be back here with you major it’s funny whenever I run into you it always seems to be in a noisy bar I can’t imagine why that could be how could what what are the chances what are the chances so it will this first question David will sound as if I’ve only read the prologue I guarantee you I’ve read nearly all of the book but the prologue ends with a sentence that I think is such a great stepping off point for the book well it ought to it’s the prologue it ought to get things rolling here’s the sentence talking about the times in which we live and the National Security challenges facing the United States and by extension the West it’s part 1914 part 1941 and part 2022 all at once what does that mean well the the Prelude to that quote is a line from markk Millie uh the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs who said you know at the beginning of the Ukraine war we thought this was going to be a cyber War then we thought it was an old-fashioned World War II tank war and then we thought it was World War I trench warfare trench warfare or something like that yeah and he may have had an army epithet or two thrown into that before it was World War I and that’s really the remarkable moment that we are in because on the one hand you have seen in Ukraine and you have seen in Gaza and you have seen in the US China conflict the use of the most extraordinary new technologies facial recognition electronic ways of tracking down adversaries you’ve seen the use of satellites you’ve seen the use of um the most Exquisite cyber Technologies and you have seen the most oldfashioned brutality and you know there was a a moment maybe even with my last book The Perfect Weapon which came out 5 years ago where we thought we were heading to this world of clean conflicts that were we going to be struggles between nation states but essentially weren’t going to kill innocent civilians boy were we wrong flat wrong yeah there’s so much in this book and I really highly recommend it look if you’re listening or watching the show you are tuned in not only to the news but you’re trying to figure out the construct of our times I read a lot of books you know the guests we have on the show David and I are friends but I don’t say this because we’re friends it’s the best book synthesizing our times that I have come across some books are reporters books chalk full of reporters notebook factoids and those are great some books are analytical books and some books are narrative books that try to get a sweep of a time this book is all three it’s a reporter’s book it’s an analytical book it’s a narrative book but as you were finishing it David gaza’s attack on Israel occurs that has been a wrenching six-month horrific conflict changing all sorts of Dynamics in the Middle East how does that fit or not fit within the things you were trying to bring to the surface and help your readers understand better well it fits in uh pretty centrally because on the one hand we’ve got what this calls new cold Wars with an S which is to say a simultaneous superpower competition with China and with Russia but also with China and Russia combining their forces together now think back major just to 2015 when the United States was negotiating the Iran nuclear agreement who was sitting on the US side of the table right you and I were out there and you in the whole bit you had the US you had the Europeans you had the Chinese and the Russians on the same side right and the Russians were actually pretty helpful in that negotiation and in the end they ended up taking Iran’s nuclear material the enriched uranium taking it to Russia blending it down they were fundamentally on board with the thought that a nuclear Iran was not in their interest where are we a mere 9 years later Iran is the major supplier to Ukraine the Russians are going to do anything to keep that going they have been perfectly happy to see uh the Iranian proxies Hamas as balah the hoties engage the United States they’ve done absolutely nothing to restrain this war the Chinese have been perfectly happy at a moment that the US was supposed to be doing the pivot to Asia to see this going on they don’t want it to get too bad because they don’t want to interrupt their own oil flows but boy if the United States is once again wrapped in dealing with terrorism in the Middle East well that’s how China got to the position that’s in today and you talked about this but I want you to get a little bit more specific with my audience what is it that Iran is providing to Russia that is making a difference in the Ukrainian Battlefield two things the first and biggest is of course the drones at a moment that Iran had sorry at a moment that the Russians had very little drone capability they built it up now they were able to buy the Shahed drones from Iran load them up and use that to counter what was an increasingly effective drone force from Ukraine the second thing they’re doing is they’re providing artillery and we think soon short range missiles the North Koreans are doing big artillery and many of their missiles a lot of them are duds they not working terribly well but if you take a look at this constellation China which said it is in a partnership with no limits with Russia but we’ve discovered some limits North Korea and Iran you have the core of what they call the axis of resistance that is resistance to the United States in a western way incorporating and the big message of This Book Is that we got it wrong after the fall of the Berlin wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union and we got it wrong in the first 20 years of reformers in China that this meant that we were on a path toward democracy and not brutality and authoritarianism uh taking hold and even in Biden’s first two years in office how many times did you and I sit through press conferences where he said this is a struggle between democracy and authoritarianism and we have to show people democracy works well there’s a lot of skepticism that democracy works right now and part of that skepticism comes from the fact that the Biden Administration has had a much harder time declaring that brutality in Gaza is morally equivalent to the brutality we have seen taking place in Ukraine or other places there are all kinds of reasons for that but boy it’s been an effective talking point for the Russians so David I’m going to set this question up so we can talk about it on the other side of the break because I don’t want to put this question to you and say you have 15 seconds to begin an answer to it but two thoughts before we go into the break one there’s a chapter in the book called The Lost decades when we come back I want you to explain what those lost decades were and how damaging what was lost actually is in real time and secondly I want you to evaluate something that has always been a Bedrock strength of the unit United States which is its economic prowess and its economic stability Visa its adversaries those are the two topics when we come back I’m Major Garrett David Sanger is our special guest mcintyres is our Host Restaurant fish and chips are coming to the table momentarily I promise you we thank mcintyres for their Hospitality back with David Sanger and the new book the new cold Wars in a moment we took our eye off the ball of the fundamental competitions that would decide America’s future [Music] welcome back to the takeout Our Guest David Sanger White House and National Security correspondent for the New York Times we’re at mcintyres that’s the happy sound you hear around us David’s new book new cold Wars so I put two questions to you David let me repeat them to you briefly the decades what were they why do they matter and in all these ideas and Concepts about new cold Wars is the United States economically ready and is that economic prowess long at Advantage for the United States in all superpower conflicts as advantageous as it once was so on the first part the Lost decades were the decades in which the US was so wrapped up in the wars on terror for good and understandable reasons that we took our eye off the ball of the fundamental competitions that would decide America’s future let me give you one simple one and the book goes into this in some detail it’s the loss of our ability to produce the most advanced semiconductors here’s a technology that was invented in the United States Texas Instruments Intel all that when I first went into journalism in the 19 early 1980s I was covering Silicon Valley and Intel when it dominated the world it made the IBM personal computer business and that made Intel but there were a series of business decisions that were made not only by Intel but by many other companies over the course of 20 years that basically move the production of the chips largely to Taiwan some to other places but the most advanced chips to uh Taiwan semiconductor the company that makes the microprocessor at the heart of your iPhone that makes all the chips for NVIDIA which are powering artificial intelligence applications and somehow and they’re in weapon systems too and weapon systems as well and some combination of the covid supply chain trauma and the recognition that if there was a war in Taiwan or over Taiwan we would lose access to the central technology that drives everything from your washing machine to your car to your F-15 right that this was going to be a great crisis and yet was anyone in the US government looking at these individual business decisions and saying look they may make sense for for the shareholders ERS of any individual company Motorola Texas Instruments Intel you name it but they don’t make sense for the National Security of the United States you know I usually when I think about about these kind of problems I I try to do it by analogy so would you let the Russians manufacture the um uniforms that American soldiers we sure they can do it cheaply you can fight a war without just the right camouflage we’ll find some way to rev it up would you let the Russians design the um innards of the B2 bomber or your nuclear weapon system of course not you’d be laughed out of of the building semiconductors are so much closer to the B2 example or the nuclear weapons complex example and yet we don’t give it a second thought we think well this is a commercial activity now finally because of the chips act that Biden and the Democratic Congress passed uh two years ago we’re putting $52 billion into semiconductor sounds like a lot of money P do you know what the last US aircraft carrier we built was the Gerald Ford that’s right I read it in the book that’s right $ 13 billion that’s right 13 14 maybe with cost overruns $15 billion right that’s about the price tag for building a pretty Advanced but not super Advanced semiconductor Fab fabrication plant if I went to Congress today and I said we’re falling behind the Chinese in manufacturing aircraft carriers which by and large are sitting ducks these days we need 10 more I think you’d get it through right if I went through them and said we need 10 more 3 nanom Fabs that’s the diameter of the smallest uh circuits on the chip they’ say that’s industrial policy right we don’t do that in America that’s right now they we did do it with the chips act and it’s a start but when all those Fabs are built by the Biden administration’s uh own projection we will get back maybe 20% of the manufacturing market so that leads to the second question is our economic approach more harm ful than beneficial and is it still net net an advantage in these emerging new cold Wars it is a net advantage in the development of Advanced Technologies you know for all the Chinese worked on artificial intelligence and they’re still working on it generative AI came out of American firms by and large and European firms but our ability to go Marshall that toward a National Defense National Security capability has weakened considerably and that at a moment when as the book points out we are more relying on American companies than ever for early warning for example so there’s a section at the beginning of the book where I take you into the state Department’s thinking in the days before the Ukraine war you know they’re releasing intelligence about evidence that Putin is getting ready to invade but the weekend before the war I’m at the Munich security conference and I’ve got all these leaders of Europe saying to me oh the Russians aren’t going to do this David they’re just bluffing they’re just trying to extract some more parts of Ukraine but they won’t really invade and the Saturday before I sat down with Secretary of State Linkin known for many years long before he was Secretary of State and we were comparing a list of people who told us the war wouldn’t start and it was incredibly long it included the German intelligence Chief who was caught in keev the morning the war broke out 4 days later they had to evacuate him so that’s the view from the government side I then take you into Microsoft’s warning center outside of Dallas Airport where they’re seeing evidence of cyber attacks inside Ukraine against Ukrainian government operations and they sent a warning to their own staff which then went to uh an newberger the deputy National Security advisor for cyber and and emerging Technologies and then to Jake Sullivan the National Security adviser that these cyber attacks look like they are a Prelude to the war and they were that touches on something else that is also talked about in your earlier book The Perfect Weapon David was on this show to talk about that and newberger who he just name checked was on the show just two or three weeks ago if you’re curious about this I urge you to go back to the archives listen to that episode that in this cyber space and I mean that broadly the space of cyber Warning Systems are not just governmental they are private sector and they are collaborative and they’re and as I read your book both of them they must be that’s a new reality they’ve got to be in part because us intelligence agencies are forbidden from going inside us companies and they’re forbidden from going inside us networks but if you’re trying to figure out the communications going on among adversaries it frequently is going to be inside a network that Microsoft or Google or Amazon World Services sees and the NS say cannot right they’ve got eyes on and is that Ison um real time it can be um it depends on the nature of the communications um and these Technologies are not miracle workers um you know for the first year and a half or two years the American technological age that we gave the ukrainians made a huge difference we gave Ukraine project Maven which was the pentagon’s um collection effort to be able to see all sources of intelligence put them on a single pane of glass so you can see Satellite photographs Telegram and Twitter messages Instagram posts that may show uh say hidden um uh sniper post or uh uh tank hold that thought David I need you to hold that thought pregnant pause segment three of the take out with David S of the New York Times in just one moment President Biden’s instructions were don’t let the Russians win but don’t start World War [Music] II welcome back back to the Takeo delighted to have David Sanger with us White House and National Security correspondent for the New York Times David you were mid-s sentenced I had to interrupt you to go to break about technology and what we were providing to the ukrainians what they were seeing and how to use a guttural phrase whizbang it all was on a single string single screen if you will so this single stream of data was enormously helpful to them and it explains why they were able to and worth pointing out in a wartime scenario never before seen that’s right and to the Pentagon this was a great moment to test out this technology because they had developed it for years but it had never actually been used in battle and only then do you discover what works and what doesn’t so what did we discover it was enormously helpful at targeting the Russians it enabled the ukrainians to make up for the fact that the US was not out there pulling triggers because President Biden’s instructions were don’t let the Russians win but don’t start World War I right so these were somewhat intention and it explains why the ukrainians were able to hit Russian ships in the Red Sea uh I’m sorry in the uh in the in the uh in the oceans right off of Crimea it explains why the ukrainians were able to kill Generals in command posts but now all of a sudden that age seems gone right and so the question is why has the technology gotten worse no the Russians learned how to adopt they finally brought in good electronic warfare that has styed a lot of the Ukrainian drones they have added bodies this week um we heard that uh from Christopher cavoli the European Commander that the the uh Russians have now added enough soldiers that their force is 15% bigger than it was on the day of the invasion despite the casualties that they have suffered we now know that the ukrainians are being outgunned by the Russians in artillery about 10 rounds to one and so all the good intelligence in the world isn’t going to help you if you simply don’t have the mass the numbers and the artillery to shoot back with to use the Silicon Valley word to be able to fight at scale that’s right that’s right and the Russians can fight at scale and they have learned how to come up and make up for the deficiencies they had and they’ve learned a lot from watching us where do you think if you were to describe for this audience David the war in Ukraine currently is the best thing you could say about it as a stalemate the worst you could say is some advantage to the Russians and that’s particularly concerning because if you’re Vladimir Putin you have no motivation to go out and try to do a settlement until you see how the American election comes out because what’s he reading that Donald Trump says that he’ll end the war in 24 hours well that’d be fine what’s it take to go do that but it turns out giving the territory that the Russians want to the Russians without consulting particularly the ukrainians right I want to ask you about Afghanistan there’s a substantial chapter in the book about what happened with the evacuation and You observe as others have that the White House was willing to blame everyone and anyone but itself for that evacuation it has and it has had a discernable political consequence for this white house every bit of polling shows the president was above water before the Afghanistan withdrawal he fell below water meaning his net approval was above before Afghanistan it fell below meaning he was more disapproved than approved after Afghanistan how much of that is a legitimate referendum on the White House approach and the blunders or misjudgments surrounding the withdrawal from Afghanistan let me start by saying the withdrawal itself was the one thing on which Donald Trump and Joe Biden agreed upon in the uh 2020 election and you and I know we could count those on just a couple of fingers right but they both said we had to get out Trump had declared the previous Christmas that everybody was going to leave like in a week or two until his secretary of state had to go by quietly and say you can’t do that you’re going to abandon our allies you’re going to leave people frozen in space you’re going to get a lot of people guilt so Trump left it for Biden Biden took the position that he had taken throughout the Obama Administration which is that the US needed to reduce and ultimately get out nothing wrong with that but having made that decision in April he needed a plan that was going to enable the United States not only to get its own forces out but to get out the the sivs the special individuals who had immigrant Visa candidates right translators Cooks uh Logistics experts other Afghans who had essentially chosen sides helped the Americans in ways large medium and small and whose fate was in the hands in all likelihood of the let us say unmerciful Taliban so the US had an intelligence failure about how quickly the uh Taliban would move in or more specifically how quickly the Ukrainian forces that the US had spent two decades training would collapse they had a failure of imagination about what kind of Rush that would lead to in the July 4th weekend of 20121 I was pool at the White House and thankless job you and I have had more times than we can count right and the president came out to announce some good economic news but it turned out the previous night the US had overnight evacuated bogram Air Force Base which of course had been the center of gravity of the US forces and I asked him how could you do that in the middle of an evacuation when you may need that space to go move people in to have the airlift I said no problem we’ll have over the horizon intelligence about what’s happening we’ll have the ability to get there quickly we it will not affect our evacuation plans well they sure did now there was one let’s just say let’s just put a pin on that of the three things you just summarized wrong wrong wrong absolutely now the one good thing that came out of this I mean obviously there were the deaths of 13 US service personel Brave service Personnel the good thing that came out of it was that the team around Biden very closed been with him for years learned that they comfort with each other did not guarantee that they were making the right decisions and I actually think they responded better in Ukraine the Ukraine crisis came up a few months later for this failure just as Kennedy responded better to the Cuban Missile Crisis because he screwed up the Bay of Pigs I think there’s an important historical comparison there David and I’m glad you brought up John F Kennedy I didn’t know you would because I was going to get to this after the Bay of Pigs President Kennedy had a pre very famous press conference the preparation for which is detailed in several books and there was a whole mechanism beneath the president about how to explain this and where to direct blame and the president told his advisers then he told the nation it’s my fault the responsibility lies entirely with me and it is my fault there is a belligerence about the Biden White House not to do that and I believe that is part of the political impact that this has had and continues to have it could be it could be that said I think they get bad as Afghanistan was and I would never yeah this chapter is pretty brutal it is I had a very senior member of the Biden Administration say to me am I going to like this book I said well don’t read the Afghanistan chapter on the other hand I think they actually handled the runup to the war about as skillfully as anybody could and they hoped that their revelation of the intelligence the Ukraine war Ukraine war would stop Putin it did not in the book you get pretty chapter and verse on that including some remarkable on the record testimony from Bill Burns the uh CIA director and Biden’s overall fix it person on everything from the Middle East to other other topics about his meetings with Putin to warn him and Putin didn’t believe him we’re going to talk about Vladimir Putin and Ukraine when we come back I Major Garrett McIntyre is our Host Restaurant we thank them for their Hospitality segment for the take out coming your way in just one moment Putin came out and gave a speech in which he was quite clear he said there are parts of Mother Russia the Russia of Peter the Great that have been ripped away from us and that will be restored [Music] welcome back to the take out David Sanger White House and National Security correspondent for the New York Times Our Guest his new book new cold Wars the subtitle China’s rise Russia’s Invasion and America’s struggle to defend the West I want to ask you about Vladimir Putin and the things you learned about it and the things that led up to the in of Ukraine and most importantly David where the endgame might possibly be found and I want to start with this question and the book talk touches on this and it’s my deepest fear about where the end game will be will anyone in the west anyone in the west care as much about Ukraine as Vladimir Putin can’t and this was Obama’s point when he to my mind under responded to the um anex invasion of Crimea of Crimea and he said look we’re not going to go to war for a Russians speaking Peninsula that most Americans can’t find on the map that was part of Russia for several hundred years but Ukraine itself the full Ukraine is different different much different much different and Putin knew that the very fact that it’s not a member of NATO made it a much harder decision for the US us and its allies about how they would defend them clearly he underestimated what the response would be but one of the arguments of the book is that we miss we misjudge Putin time and time again seven years before Crimea in 2007 at the Munich security conference Putin came out and gave a speech in which he was quite clear he said there are parts of Mother Russia the Russia of Peter the Great that have been ripped away from us and that will be restored that was during the Bush Administration and it’s what led President Bush and his National Security adviser Steve Hadley who we just saw at McIntyre’s a few minutes ago to conclude that they needed to go have a chat with Putin and figure out what this was about so Hadley secretly went off he goes to meet Putin the encounter is described in the book yes it is vividly and he came back really worried 7 years later comes Crimea the year after that in 2015 Chancellor Merkel of Germany signed the nordstream 2 pipeline agreement with the Russians which call for the creation of a new pipeline from Russia around Ukraine cutting it out of the revenue and straight to Europe and what did she say the Russians are a reliable supplier yeah so the the German view like the American view was you had to embrace Putin in a bare hug to keep him from acting against us and they held on to that view until the day of the invasion in February of 2022 it is something that is discussed in Washington but I want you to give your perspective on this question to my audience when we think about the relationship with Russia and Putin we should not think of it in Soviet meaning Stalin or kusf or Lenin we should think of it in Peter the Great context correct the book keeps saying that time and again look you go into Putin’s office I’ve only been in once was with bush there are no paintings of Stalin or Lennon has a big buz to Peter the Great his view Putin’s view of the Communist lead leaders is that they were all idiots who empowered the Soviet republics to think they had a fair bit of autonomy and when they had the opportunity to exercise that autonomy after the collapse of the Soviet Union many of them chose to join nato in the west he’s deeply bitter about this and so he’s not trying simply to undo what happened with their joining NATO he’s trying to undo what Stalin and Lenin had done and there’s something generational about this also isn’t there meaning young Russians resent the what they perceive to be the soft communist leaders who let all these terrible things happen that’s true but think about what a change this is from 20 years ago you know an early scene in the book is President Bush and his wife Laura and Putin and his then wife floating down the Nea river outside St Petersburg they’re on this big party boat I was on the pool boat behind we were not eating as well fact we were not eating as well as we were eating at [Laughter] McIntyre and serving the leader dinner was this brooding guy standing behind them who from looking at the pictures later we identify as Pria yes who shows up in the book 20 years later marching on quickly remind my Iden to froan is froan started as Putin chef the guy who cooked his food his Chef Scrabble Hard Scrabble life criminal background works his way to the center of Putin’s heart starts the internet research agency that worked to influence the 2016 election went on to start the Vagner Group which he denied running for years which of course saved Putin’s bacon in Ukraine until it turned against him right okay so during this float down the river Putin and Bo are talking about the days ahead when Russia could join the European Union they’re talking about the possibility that Russia might join NATO the alliance created major to contain the old Soviet Union and in fact it wasn’t a wild thought because there was a NATO Russia Council and you’d go in the gates of NATO and you could go to Russia’s office right right that is a NATO Ukraine Council right so we convinced ourselves along the way that at the end of the day for all of his historical grievances Putin would decide that the oil Revenue was too important and he would not upset the apple cart we were wrong we made a parallel assessment about Xin ping when he came into Power a decade ago and that was that China was so invested in his integration with the West with its membership in the World Trade Organization with its supplying of Walmart and American Electronics firms that when xiin ping came to the Obama White House and said we’re not going to militarize the South China Sea or we will come up with peaceful ways out of the problem with Taiwan that he really felt head hemmed in and it turned out we had that one wrong too I argue you the Putin mistake was a bigger one because the evidence was out front with XI Jen ppang it took years to discover his secret speeches where he said we are going to build up our nuclear weapon stockpile to be equivalent to the Russians and the Americans I want to let their audience know that we’re going to go to the takeout out take a spetial in a moment U and because David has been a guest on the show he’s already answered the three threshold questions so the take out out take a special we’ll pick up where we just left off which is a little bit more a little bit deeper on China and the China’s rise part of his book new cold Wars again the subtitle China’s rise Russia’s Invasion and America’s struggle to defend the West David Sanger has been our special guest we thank mcintyres to be our Host Restaurant stay tuned for your takeout outt take aeal in just one moment it’s almost as if Americans expect the rest of the world to stand still while we’re have working this out among ourselves they ain’t doing that [Music] welcome to your take out out take a special David Sanger White House and National Security correspondent for the New York Times our special guest China we haven’t talked about as much as we probably should so I want to give you the last three minutes there is a sense that everything that Americans hear right now about China is negative there’s a fear in Washington that is so hyper negative that it is obscuring Tru about China talk to me about that that there’s a kind of Hysteria going on about there is and you know it’s almost 1950s like and feels like it the first thing we need to understand is the Chinese state is not 10 ft tall there 10t tall right their growth has slowed down to 3% they finally hit that turn in the river that everybody’s been waiting for for 20 years they’ve launched a number of state-owned State directed operations on high technology the 2025 project which built up their capacity and semiconductors Quantum Computing artificial intelligence long range batteries solar everything thing that our Congress wants us to do and they’ve been very successful in some and in semiconductors in particular not so successful in part because the Biden Administration has much more skillfully than I thought they would deprive them of the most advanced semiconductors and the equipment to make them but there is a Temptation because Russia is the more urgent problem to forget that China is the most important long-term problem it is the only country with the military economic political and technological capability to challenge Us in the long term and getting a divided Congress and a divided populace to think in strategic terms about China and competing with it at a moment that we’re also supposed to be thinking in strategic terms about Russia a very different kind of Challenger you know China’s climate change as they say Russia’s just the hurricane right right um the difficulty of getting us to do that is really hard and one thing that worries me major is that we’re not as good as a country and populace thinking about geost strategy as we were 60 years ago I mean listen to the Nixon Kennedy debates forget for a minute who’s sweating who looks old who looks young just turn on the audio and turn off the video something your video viewers are probably wishing they’re doing right now certainly in my case they always think that right and um what you hear is a really sophisticated argument about the nature of nuclear deterrence that no one would sit still for today right in no Pol and I’m not blaming Donald Trump or Joe Biden I’m not blaming Democrats and Republicans it we have lost the ability because for the past 30 years we haven’t had to think about it to ask the question if we create a vacuum in the world who is going to fill it how are our interests going to be harmed if they do fill it what interests do we care about and what we don’t I teach a national security course with Graham Allison at the Kennedy School at Harvard and the first thing we try to get students to think about is a hierarchy of national interests right what’s first what’s second what’s third what’s fourth what are the things that are important to do and you’d like to do but you simply can’t afford to do we don’t conduct our debates in a hierarchy of national interests we wrap ourselves around social issues around important questions that we’ve got to resolve domestically but it’s almost as if Americans expect the rest of the world to stand still while we’re have working this out among ourselves they ain’t doing that that is the voice of David Sanger and if this show is devoted to anything it is to lengthen our Collective attention span that’s why I created this show that’s why we have a lot of time that’s why we have long what I hope are deeply informative conversations David singer thank you for in your way advancing what I consider to be a noble Pursuit well major you and I for for uh more years than we’d like to admit have been out covering this place trying to understand it debating it in the back of buses or over really bad meals this was a quite good one and uh it’s just such a pleasure to be doing this with you thank you so much David we’ll see you next week folks [Music]

Journalist and author David Sanger joins Major Garrett to discuss his new book “New Cold Wars: China’s Rise, Russia’s Invasion, and America’s Struggle to Defend the West,” which details the myriad of challenges the U.S. faces in positioning itself as the leader of the free world amid conflicts around the globe.

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