Then They Fight You? – Parker Lewis SLP570

Then They Fight You? – Parker Lewis SLP570

even if somebody doesn’t get it they’re like that Rancher is taking bitcoin’s payment my doctor in Austin takes bitcoin’s payment and it’s difficult to criminalize people that look like that you know where it’s like well it’s just a doctor taking payments it’s just a dentist taking payments is just a Rancher taking payments you stacking up of that you make those people that are otherwise trying to restrict and constrain your freedoms more ridiculous [Music] hi everyone welcome back to Stefan L podcast brought to you by swann.com rejoining me is my friend Parker Lewis he’s the author of gradually then suddenly which is a great book well it started as a Blog series it’s now a book he is also at zaap right so Parker welcome back to the show hey it’s good to be back Stefan uh it was good to see you a couple weeks ago bit block boom and uh yeah it’s been too long since we got together to have a conversation like this um so excited to be back on the show so there’s a lot of things that have been going on uh in the space I mean the samurai wallet guys were arrested Phoenix and async have exited the US Wasabi has exited the US uh you know there’s the Rog ofer arrest as well um what are you making of all this yeah I think that it’s it’s uh not coincidental but maybe a surprise to to some people that these actions that uh you’re really kind of the specific action that the Department of Justice uh southern district of New York has taken against uh the samurai wallet uh Founders and operators comes just on the heel of the Bitcoin ETF being approved and launched in in the subsequent months um I do think that you know having that and keeping that in context because when the Bitcoin ETF was launched it was really approved or the series of ETFs that were launched um that uh followed the approval by the SEC um the SEC approved that begrudgingly and that there’s other interests in the United States uh someone who’s very vocal in opposition to bitcoin is someone like Senator Warren um and that it’s also not surprising that the Department of Justice and and likely allies within uh the US Treasury Department and um and finsen would uh would ramp up their um essentially legislation by uh prosecutorial discretion um and by enforcement actions um so I think that you know my my personal perspective is there’s a lot lot to digest in the in the samurai case um it does seem like uh it’s going to have a chilling effect um and that you know I think that you though also have to look at every individual circumstance uh differently and uniquely I think that Samurai is certainly different from Phoenix pulling out of the US uh and it’s certainly even though Wasabi wallet um operated a mixer similar to Samurai it was different and I think that you know um you know I don’t fault you know someone who’s running wasabi from doing that but just also recognizing that each company’s facts and circumstances are different and then when you then compare individual companies and the nature of their services to other companies that entirely um uh entirely different and not similar that uh that they shouldn’t all be uh all be lumped together I do think that there’s the possibility that people overreact but I also think that it is a good um stress test not that you know certainly um not wanting anything bad to happen to any individuals but I think it is really going to have the broader effect even if the near-term impact may be um chilling the type of activities or even what people are willing to say about it in the US that in the end and an aggregate the consequence will be that everyone has just gotten a you know kind of shot across the bow a very loud signal and that combination of the way things build people or the way things the way people build tools as well as you know at the individual level to groups of people becoming more active um in defending the rights of Bitcoin and Bitcoin holders within the United States and abroad will be heightened as a result of this so I I do ascribe not to make light of it at all but in the uh economic theory that keynesians push that everything is good for Bitcoin um and that in this case everything being good for Bitcoin meaning that uh the tools that get built will be built uh more consciously given the latest set sets of actions but then also U I think it will become a call to action that uh people within the Bitcoin Community need to uh not just be more proactive because I think there has been a lot of advocacy but needs to be a lot more strategic and and and recognize that We’re Playing for Keeps now um and that this also wouldn’t be happening if uh the the Legacy Financial system wasn’t weak wasn’t fragile wasn’t tenuous itself and uh and that that at some point I think everyone realistically knew that this would these type of things would happen and happen in an accelerating way maybe just not as soon as today yeah and so you made a good point around the way tools have been built in this ecosystem and I think let’s we should go into that a little bit because now to be clear I’m not a lawyer I’m not an expert on the US regulatory environment but as I understand it finsen came out with some guidance and some of that guidance has been followed over the the years in terms of how products and services were built in this ecosystem so I will point out that um sometimes people confuse the term mixer with coin join or non-custodial coin join and there is a I think there is a difference in the way some of these Services were constructed so as an example Samurai wallet Wasabi wallet uh join Market these are non-custodial tools and it’s it is a there is a difference of character in that the user who holds those private keys is you know using obviously they’re using these coordinating softwares whether it’s samurai or Wasabi to self send you know in a coin join fashion but that has historically been seen as different to let’s say custodial mixes and so I know um there was the Bitcoin fog case and I believe uh chip mixer um and so in those cases historically the courts saw a difference there between a custodial mixer and a non-custodial service and you could also argue that many services that have been built with a with that kind of self- custodial Focus right whether it’s Unchained capital or others out there that have designed their service in this way um what do you think it means now that the US government seemingly or at least the prosecutors are trying to overturn this or go back on what was previously finsen guidance yeah and I think that there’s there’s a few things things that I would say kind of on the front side which I agree with you completely um that the way things are built and the nature of the service is highly and the facts and circumstances which someone like finsen or doj or anyone would specifically say that that it’s specific to the facts and circumstances of a certain service a certain tool a certain company um I think that there are a few things that you know are at play and one of the things that that you know when when I read through some excerpts I read through the full indictment but I believe there have been responses to the samurai case I haven’t read the full response but I did go back and and reread the 2019 guidance is that there’s a difference between law there’s a difference between rules making uh there’s a difference between you know guidance from finsen and then there’s a difference between the doj and uh the Department of Justice and there can be um areas within both rules making and guidance as well as selective prosecution that interpret laws that can um stretch the meaning of those laws or the intentionality of of what was meant and then those are Al ultimately tested in the court system and that I think you know again and I’m not a lawyer but recognizing that finsen you know because what basically what the Department of Justice saying is that you know finsen is not necessarily the authority on this which throws everybody into chaos because we’re all uh from you know people when I say we anybody’s building infrastructure within the United States is relying upon the guidance that the you know uh Financial crimes and enforcement network uh that is a unit of the US Treasury Department is sending out they’re sending out their interpretation of Law and then in this case the Department of Justice has function Ally uh interpreted the law different than or in in uh in conflict or in contradiction to what the treasury and um Department of uh or sorry the treasury Department and the INF finsen has said and so when I personally read the the finsen guidance and again they were from 2019 we’re in 2024 typically if there is an update to guidance they will update it but that is also one other caveat that 5 years has Chang and you know if their interpretation has changed that doesn’t necessarily mean they have to put out you know a new set of guidance even though that is traditional practice is that in that guidance they specifically talk about anonymizing services and then they differentiate that from anonymizing software right and so basically and they distinguish and one of the things in in my own interpretation I think this is something that everyone who’s building infrastructure um to serve the Bitcoin Community or Bitcoin holders in the United States but particularly everywhere needs Clarity on is in the finsen guidance from 2019 and then also in private letter rulings that they had linked in that guidance they specifically refer to money transmission as accepting and transmitting and that it’s both of those things together you accept funds and then you transmit funds you accept funds from one person and you transmit funds from another what the Department of Justice is trying to seemingly um stretch the definition or uh potentially change the meaning of a law or of a statute is saying that you don’t actually have to accept and transmit to be a money transmitter and then if you are a money transmitter and you don’t have the proper licenses then you’ve committed a crime and so so understanding this important distinction that that based on everything that Finn s and put out and then there were also in these private letter rulings where they would expressly say you never had control of funds you never control funds therefore you’re not a money transmitter um and then when you think about that in the context of the Samurai case that they never were in control of funds and the Department of Justice admits such they’re trying to change the scope of what the word money transmission means me and you know creating law in my it’s my personal view creating law via um enforcement actions and and criminal complaints is not the right way to create law um we might not agree with a law that said you know any coin join service whether custodial or non-custodial in the United States is not lawful we might not agree with that and then that could be challenged but then at least there would be a law that states that passed by legislators not the interpretation of one District in the state of New York and so my reading of it says when they talk about anonymizing Services they say anonymizing services are money transmission but it doesn’t talk about you know who’s running a server or not it specifically talks about accepting and transmitting funds uh you know basically establishing that you know if you were to read that that text that their definition of anonymizing services would be a custodial service and then when they talk about uh the fact that you know anonymizing software and and you know it depends on who’s running the software and whether the person running the software is a money transmitter but the software itself is not money transmission and so such that if you developed a tool and then open sourced it and then the samurai case seems to fit in a gray area but where there is a gray area in terms of the interpretation to anyone that that I think you know setting aside the samurai case because I do think there’s specific circumstances set out to them that make them unique um is this lack of clarity on this idea of that can can you be a money transmitter if you never touch any money you know because to a common sense person they would say certainly not based on all finsen guidance that previously existed it would say certainly not and based on finsen private letter rulings um it would it would say not and in that case I would also be very surprised if there’s ever been a doj case against somebody uh accusing them of violating a money transmission law uh without having ever been in possession of funds um so I think that that that certainly when you read through the indictment of Samurai um that that complaint the uh that that what is at the Forefront is the money laundering aspect of it their their alleged knowledge of of that activity uh ongoing on their platform and then not taking um you know steps to prevent that I think that absent those facts and circumstances it would be very uh it would be very difficult to conceive a case like this being brought against somebody else that wasn’t in possession of money and that doesn’t make their their complaint valid I think it just you know is a is a you know kind of more um broad recognition that if not for uh the other elements of what they allege specifically related to money laundering would this case be brought but then it becomes certainly relevant to everybody building to people like Phoenix to people um like Wasabi wallet Wasabi wallet looks a lot similar again uh facts and circumstances of their business very different than uh Sam but but similar at the same time uh and different just in terms of how the the tools work so um ultimately I think that what it will come down to or my perspective or where everyone would gain Clarity is this definition of money transmission and and also recognizing that for that to change uh a statute really needs to change uh and that’s law and and we could either agree or disagree with it challenge that but that that to me seems the right way to carry forward and so I would caution people not to overreact but to to start taking it extremely seriously and start becoming very active uh in terms of uh in terms of advocacy and and my perspective on that is that we need a new class of Advocates uh that that that are just Bitcoin focused that don’t lump Bitcoin in with everything else because everything is so different when you get into facts and circumstances just within Bitcoin and the different segments of how Bitcoin works and also its significance and just size and and merits it’s uh you know kind of being legislated or regulated on its own and not confused with everything else that exists uh in the world so in terms of Bitcoin industry and Advocates responding do you have any thoughts there on what people should be doing is it a factor of donating to these particular cases is it a matter of donating to some kind of Bitcoin lobbying and advocacy organization what what do you see uh that Bitcoin people should be doing I I don’t have my full fleshed out thoughts so I’m I’m hesitant to to go into too much details but I think that uh historically the historical uh advocacy groups that have been quasi advocating for Bitcoin have demonstrated to be unsuccessful I think so what I would say you know what I would say is very clearly uh Bitcoin needs to be in its own bucket people need to start saying the word Bitcoin Sunset digital assets Sunset the consequence of lumping in all snake oil that doesn’t have to do with Bitcoin and and just focus on bitcoin such that uh if there are advocacy groups that that push that other narrative those those other things have proven to be unsuccessful I think that also personal opinion Washington DC and that Federal landscape albeit we have good advocates in the US like uh Senator lumus like someone like Warren Davidson like someone like Ted Cruz senator from Texas um that it’s not to say that the the work that that that people are doing in Washington specifically from inside those bodies is is not important it’s it’s very important but I think from um from a bit the bitcoiner side it is getting you know for people in the US specifically it is actually getting through to people at the state level and that there’s no shortcut around helping somebody understand Bitcoin um because in order for them to be able to distinguish and understand why they need to protect rights for Bitcoin holders and and and enumerate Bitcoin specifically um they have to have some of their own primary firsthand understanding about Bitcoin that isn’t rooted into what a lobbyist says and and then it comes to finding people in those local States you know kind of local you know jurisdictions like the state of Texas or the state of Ohio that uh are actually willing to do that work and are actually principal people because there’s so many politicians that aren’t principled that are there for the power and so I think it is you know Bitcoin is still small in the grand scheme so we don’t have these massive budgets to go Lobby you have to be hyper strategic and Hyper tactical and hyperconscious of both the limitations of time as well as the limitation of money and resources um to to be effective so it’s it’s to focus on bitcoin to to Sunset or shed the you know the blockchain association you know with Bitcoin and to also um be tactical in terms of the venues because I think the thing that will ultimately be in in specifically in the United States but also I think it will serve everyone in the world is that if this becomes a state vers Federal um battle and that rather than me as an individual or as a company or Samurai individuals or Samurai a company uh that you know or Phoenix or Wasabi or whoever else is out there you know certainly like it’s as impacting a broad set of people that it’s not individuals and companies fighting this fight it’s States uh fighting the federal government to protect the rights of its citizens um and so so I think going to the state level in the in in us specifically helping them understand Bitcoin and why they should care is a important input or precursor to actually getting meaningfully uh meaningful things done yeah so you you mentioned this importance of getting State lawmakers to understand Bitcoin now I agree with you but let’s say somebody’s listening and they’re thinking well you know Satoshi left when Gavin went to the CIA or um people have other arguments like oh don’t engage with them just just write code or you’re never going to get through to them you’re better off trying to write code what would you say to that why why should you focus on getting lawmakers to understand Bitcoin I I think that it’s certainly both right being like conscious of how the tools are made and to to make tools that that protect those rights but that um the people that are building those tools like we’ve we’ve seen the chilling effect that civil litigation can have on people from you know the the Craig Wright is a fraud people and and using the UK as a as a Dos against Bitcoin developers or you know other people like Peter McCormack um so that is a reality and it has an impact on the ability for people to build tools because people do not you know there’s a certain class of person that is certainly willing to develop to RS and and accept the reality that the FBI could show up on their door for doing nothing wrong for for operating in their own mind uh that you know completely consistently with the laws and the spirit of the laws in the country that they live in and that those laws and that system they’re run by somebody and so my personal perspective is you can either engage in that and start to influence that for what is right uh and the other thing I meant to mention is I think that the right way to approach it is to to enshrine the rights of Bitcoin holders I genuinely believe at some point in the United States when Bitcoin is one we’re going to have to pass an amendment that specifically says Bitcoin that uh that that you have the right to use Bitcoin and transact in Bitcoin and mine Bitcoin doesn’t mean that if you commit some other crime and to use it as money that you’re not guilty of a crime but but that um those type of rights that we have only become rights by a group of people forming a cons census and getting those changes to law or changes to a constitution done um and so I I think it is that that it has to has to be both otherwise you know Freedom doesn’t you Freedom doesn’t really exist if we have to build tools just to um run from a state that has run a muck because if it has it’s going to you know it’s going to find you and it’s going to you know in the real world uh cause you serious consequences back to the show in a moment coin kite.com are my favorite providers of Bitcoin Hardware security products now when it comes to securing our Bitcoin as we say it’s not your keys not your coins and you need to learn to use some of these different tools to help create your private Keys offline and then keep your private Keys offline and that’s where some of these devices like the cold card markv or the new cold card Q device can come in and help you because they can help you create your private Keys offline you write down your 12 or 24w seed and that helps you interact with the Bitcoin Network in a self- sovereign way and so you can use these devices easily with software such as Sparrow wallet or electrum or Spectre or nunchuk as a few examples now the really cool part is that you’re keeping the private Keys offline because you’re signing in an offline way so if you’re a beginner yes you can just directly plug it to the computer but you can use these devices also in an airgap mode so for example the micr card um which is available on the markv or you can also use micro SD cards on the Cod card q and the Cod card Q also has an extra way which is this QR code so you can scan uh and read it back that way uh and do your transactions also in that fashion so there’s a range of different features and ways that you can improve your security but you can just start basic with a single signature Hardware wallet and then later think about okay do I want to do a pass phrase do I want to use bip 85 do I want to use seed XL do I want to use multi signature so these are all some of the things that are available to you the cold card and coin kite team are always innovating and putting out new products they have a range of different products if for example the tap signer is a cheaper device for those people who want a specific uh different kind of ux that’s also there they also have the seed plate which is a way for you to back up your seed words in a metal product so there’s all kinds of products there go to coin kite.com to get yours and use the code levera for a discount over at coin kite as you mentioned there’s this idea of having the states push back against the federal and I wonder if you see parallels there in terms of drug legalization um that might be another area that we’ve seen this kind of States versus the federal government um sort of uh come at odds right yeah I think so and there’s um I’m not an expert in law you know uh I do I do pay attention to it but you know thinking about ways that you know the federal government has um say overreached or um I think you know like one of the examples is you know with with drugs in the United States um you know the the outlawing of marijuana as an example was basically a federal law that many people challenge the constitutionality of but then um there’s you know the federal government has the ability to um to regulate interstate commerce and if your bank functionally touches the Federal Reserve then money is moving all over the place and now the federal government has a way to to legislate this um I still think at that time that’s why something like a constitutional amendment will likely be important at the end of the day but to the analogy that you raise is State started saying hey we view this as unconstitutional we’re going to start passing our own laws and then we will be in the position of battling the um the government doesn’t mean the federal government couldn’t come take an action on an individual but a state attorney general could intervene or just more directly take that that fight up on behalf of its citizens and that really in my view is the the um the underlying Foundation or Genius of the US system is that there’s these you know or not initially but now today 50 sovereign states that have an affiliation and a and a Federal Constitution but that most all other things are relegated to the states that aren’t expressly enumerated and so I do think that the that the right that that is the right analogy where if the if certain states start to take that action that hey we’re going to give you Clarity and then if there’s something that seems to be in Conflict versus what a federal action is then we will go take that fight up with with the federal government and that doesn’t prevent the federal government from taking an action but you have a lot more um you you have a much better chance and you’re in a much better position at least in the United States if it becomes of interest and of significance to a state government and a state uh governor and a state attorney general to take on that fight so I do think it is it is a good analogy and that as enough States get behind it then it shifts the will of the federal government to continue to try to enforce things that are realistically you know kind of legislation by rules making rather than actual law yeah and so if we’re in the if we are moving into the then they fight us stage or then they fight you stage as you said having at least some states on side is is a valuable thing um there can you comment there in terms of any advocacy work you’ve been doing uh at the state levels um obviously I know you’re you’re obviously quite involved in advocacy as well uh how has that gone trying to educate uh politicians and lawmakers yeah so I’ve done all of my advocacy to this point has been informal um not creating an entity and you know paying lobbyists part of it’s informed by my personal view that paying lobbyists is just a way to further the same broken system and that uh the way that um the only way through this storm is to actually help principled people understand Bitcoin and then put those principled people that are legislator legislators in a position of doing their job better I like to think about it like hey if a if a state senator or a state representative in like the state house or a federal Senator or a federal represent representative in the US House Representatives if they understand Bitcoin they’re go and and and they align from a values perspective um which to me there’s you at bit block Blom I gave a presentation called there’s nothing more American Bitcoin they will be able to do much more to defend Bitcoin and the rights of Bitcoin holders than paying a lobbyist um and so to this point my advocacy has been more um getting to and in front of politicians and and helping them understand Bitcoin and then also just you know running around the state of Texas and hosting meetups all over the place helping you know individual citizens understand Bitcoin so that they can then take that advocacy to the people that they know that uh that there is a strength in number but then also that the consequence of that growing number of people that understand Bitcoin is that more and more relationships exist more and more relationships existed to people that are actually part of that legislative or governance function I have as you know you know in the past had thoughts of doing something on a more formal basis rather than just gorilla tactics and and very organically and and now with this um with this coming up you know kind of these recent regulatory actions or or actions by the doj and and companies pulling out of the US um I’ve been thinking more about hey maybe I maybe I do need to actually create a formal entity to do the things that I think should be done in terms of shedding the you know the compromise on calling everything a digital asset and also just being more strategic and tactical about how we go about it uh in terms of influencing people and turning people it’s kind of split between my time working on my book and how much leverage I can get from getting that out as well as time working on bitcoin payments and saying okay you know kind of you know in the balance of of how you spend your time you know where do I get the highest leverage of being you know kind of most consequential and it’s not to say I don’t view advocacy as worth my time it’s that it’s hard to do all three of those as one so in an Ideal World I’d help support somebody who had that formal platform that really aligned with the values perspective and I haven’t found that place yet but now with everything that’s happened in in the past week U but realistically it’s been on my mind for the past several months is you know kind of dusting that off and and trying to put something more formal in place cuz uh being more active actually at the capol building and in front of the Governor would would I think be a worthwhile exercise it’s just you know there’s only 24 hours in a day yeah and with educating politicians I think it can also be funny seeing the response in kind of Bitcoin communities sometimes there’s like a a negative response to that it’s seen as like oh why are you why are you sing for that politician or why are you trying to do this thing or you’re trying to put your faith into this politician when they’ll just turn around and screw you over anyway what do you what do you think about that that’s why I really think that you have to focus on people that are principled people that will stand behind Bitcoin because they have their own knowledge of it and they’re doing it because they understand from their own perspective why it’s important and why it’s important to their constituents there are a lot of unprincipled politicians and I think that you know when I I say a lot the vast majority so if you walked up to your average you know like as an example of what I wouldn’t recommend I look at my district here in Austin and the guy who is the house representative in the US like zero chance you know so I don’t spend time working on him but then you know if one of the you know Regional officers from Ted Cruz’s office comes to the Bitcoin meet up in Houston every month it’s like investing time in those people to educate so they can then educate so it’s it’s really finding the people that will um that will be principled and recognizing or or at least accepting that they might be few and far between and because time is so scarce that trying to con you know educate somebody that’s a brick wall or doesn’t have incentives or has demonstrated themselves to have uh values that might be in contradiction to underlying American values um that it’s not worth just going talking to any politician that that that it is best to be tactical um but that if you find someone that is principal someone like Senator lus um that then they Advocate and help take actions without being asked what you know to do or told I think once you get in the world of working through lobbyists you’re just paying a lot you’re just you’re fueling the that uh swamp essentially and that it doesn’t actually get anything done it’s just paying someone the horse trade and and you know they’ll slowly infringe on your rights and tell you that yeah I think that’s a very fair way to put it in terms of chilling effect that we might see do you think that will change the behaviors of bitcoiners in the United States or even of companies inside the United States like will there just be maybe more of a focus on just buy and hoddle instead of actually spending Satoshi I I don’t think so um do think that everyone will certainly be more conscious of it uh I and I also expect that there will be certain people in the short term that that are impacted by it and don’t want to um deal with the potential that something that might ultimately be a very small risk could turn out to be somebody knocking on their door and taking away their freedom so at both times is like yes certainly and we’re already seeing it certain you know Phoenix wallet pulling out Wasabi wallet pulling out not conflating those two businesses but just recognizing that that is a real chilling effect at the same time people are going to continue to build tools for Bitcoin in the United States people are going to continue to challenge you know and defend their rights that’s the only way in my opinion to uh to ultimately get to the other side of this Fiat conundrum and Fiat storm and that you know there is an underlying survival Instinct right like I I don’t view Bitcoin is uh a nice shiny object I view it as something that is imperative to get out of this uh massively imbalanced fragile economic system that is functionally on the verge of collapse and so um the only way through is to to build on bitcoin and to turn Bitcoin into a um a a fully functional currency that can facilitate direct Commerce and that my you know personal view of it it’s not really a personal view I think it’s just an objective fact objective truth that uh money and you were talking about at at bit block boom you know the distinction between quantity money and quality of money in order for something to Be an Effective store of value it has to be able to be freely exchanged uh and the the reason why money is such an effective store of value is you know not only because it has certain property and has and is is one of those properties being over time the greatest liquidity but it also has the greatest diversity of liquidity because there is an essential choke point you know when you start to think about bitcoin’s liquidity each time a merchant says I’m willing to accept Bitcoin as payment bitcoin’s liquidity has grown but the quality of its liquidity has also grown the diversity of its liquidity has grown because that is an absolute necessity because having a good money is necessary to a functioning Society there is this survival Instinct that says okay between two you know difficult positions what am I to do not build the thing that we absolutely have to have and put somebody else in the position to do it because I believe somebody else will but if we’re each faced with that uh internal conflict the overwhelming you know kind of instinct once some of the recency bias or freshness of of these recent actions comes that that it will be back to focus but then heightened be more conscious be more cognitive um and then be more active in terms of uh doing Outreach not to change laws potentially to challenge you know suing the government that’s very popular thing to do in the United States uh and it’s also proved over time even though it’s been painful to be highly effective and uh and to take all avenues um so I think that in the short term yes but in the grand scheme I think that there’s enough Freedom loving people that know they’re that they’re on the right side not just of history but in the spirit of the tools that are being built the purposes that they’re being built for and the underlying necessity of them to our future Freedom yeah uh and let’s chat a little while wait here let’s chat a little bit about Zite um because obviously this is quite related uh can you just tell us you know what’s the latest is upright and uh you know what what are you working on yeah so uh yeah it is definitely you know hyper related we’re we’re still kind of in the process of going through all of our assess we have a regulatory perspective that um you know historically you know based on all prior interpretations zap is not a money transmitter what we are is a uh is a Bitcoin payment Gateway and um you know kind of some of the background and to me working on zap right was rooted in one wanting to be paid myself and not believing that the thing that I thought should exist existed or not in the form or fashion that I thought it should as well as when there was a slew of bank failures last year in the United States it heightened this need to to focus on developing the tools that would make Bitcoin payments accessible to more people and to hopefully help contribute alongside other great companies projects open source or otherwise working on the same you know broadest level of goal because in my view It ultimately is that necessity and when those bank failures to happen last year it really sharpened my own thinking around saying the time to do this is is now and it might have been yesterday too but it’s certainly it’s certainly now and so zap R’s going well we’re still very early um we’ve been offering subscription services for about 6 months um we’re really focused on a few principal type of applications you know individuals and business businesses issuing invoices as well as uh e-commerce things like payment links but also connecting e-commerce Stores um and ultimately what we do and kind of our uh I don’t say unique approach but the but the approach that we’ve taken is to be in this position where we are a payment Gateway we’re not a money we’re not a money transmitter we’re not a payment processor again certain of the actions that that that the do take might be interpreted to to to say that we are but I think when you know anybody realistic even if you know under you know reading the same interpretation that that we would steer far clear of that um but that basically people connect their wallets their Bitcoin nodes disapate they can connect custodial accounts non-custodial accounts they can also connect Fiat rails of payment or um kind of vision of this is one of the ways to make it easier for businesses to adopt Bitcoin payment is provide one integrated way for them to receive both fat and Bitcoin because we recognize that Fiat is a rail it does exist it is still necessary only you know maybe 1% of the world has shifted onto a Bitcoin standard the other 99% haven’t and you need to interact with both of those economies and the way to get more businesses to accept Bitcoin is by providing that seamless solution to offer both and to do it in a way that uh it’s not just philosophically we think strategically the best way to do that as a Bitcoin payments company is to be in a position where you’re not a wallet not because we you know just don’t want to uh to to hold or transmit money it’s that the the idea of being a software provider that’s facilitating payments is very different than being a wallet provider and that when you try to do both of those in the same company it’s not just the wrong product it also you know if you think about especially a a young early startup like zap right um being resource constrained there’s two different entire skill sets or really pieces of infrastructure for from a wallet versus a payments interface a checkout connecting those two things together being you know more of a fintech company than a bank and so um you know that that’s what we’re working on it’s going well we’re seeing massive acceleration and businesses coming on the platform albeit we are you know starting from a small base but uh very confident that the product that we’re delivering based on customer feedback and just metrics is is is something that the market has needed wanted but hasn’t been there before and um yeah so just you know having fun talking to you know those those Brave individuals on the Vanguard that uh that have a business that want to accept as payment and want to turn bitcoiners into their customers back to the show in a moment sw.com is the leading place to buy Bitcoin and the swan team has a mission to onboard millions of people into Bitcoin now the team have been working really hard to update the swan Bitcoin app which you can find on the Apple App Store or the Google Play Play Store so the team have created a really slick and smooth experience so now you can go from zero to Bitcoin in just a few minutes so if you have family and friends who you are struggling to get them onboarded well Swan Bitcoin application is a great way for you to help them you can be staying there right there with them and in just a few minutes they can have been onboarded and be buying Bitcoin and Swan are making it really easy to do this because now there’s zero fees on the first $10,000 of Bitcoin buys that you do and it’s not just for new customers it’s also for existing customers so remember to tell your friends and family to go to the App Store and search Swan Bitcoin install the app and get started with Bitcoin with Swan Bitcoin this show also brought to you by mle dospace the leading Bitcoin and blockchain visualizer I use it all the time when I I’m about to send a Bitcoin onchain transaction and I’m often just checking the site anyway just to keep an eye where things are at in bitcoin’s mempool now you can search transactions search take the transaction identifier and search that in mempool dospace and of course you can see the uh the meole in terms of unconfirmed transactions you can see all kinds of information about the different transaction such as whether it’s had RBF replaced by fee signaled on and the team are always rolling out new ways to explore and view the chain and so you can see Bitcoin on chain you can see the lightning Network you can see the mining Explorer there’s a liquid Network Explorer for those of you who want to see that and they are continually rolling out improvements they’ve also got an accelerated program which you can find over at mle dospace accelerator so go and sign up over mle dospace accelerator and now back to the show yeah and I think something you were saying that got me thinking from what you were saying earlier was bank failures earlier right and this is you know a year or two ago this is really big in the news right A lot of people were talking about svb and the other you know silvergate and uh uh one other bank anyway the point being it kind of brought that front and center right because there might be a lot of people who were just hodling Bitcoin but had they really set up the rails to be able to do something if your bank if your Fiat system breaks down do you do you really like could you really transact with Bitcoin like have you got the wallets set up for it and you know whether that’s paying your staff whether that’s receiving payment from your customers whether that’s you as an individual have you sort of leared have you done the drill of learning how to you know use your lightning wallet as an example so I think um these are really uh important questions for any Bitcoin hodler Advocate um that you should just be aware of what tooling is out there and what tooling you would actually use if if something came to pass like that yeah that’s really important that’s point that uh that I do like to emphasize that you ke in on there one part of this this this problem of of this inherently fragile banking system in in the US and really globally the entire you know whether it’s in the EU or Japan th those those financial systems are are functionally fragile and practically insolvent um and that when the bank failures happen in the US the first thing that people realistically worried about and when I say realistically also very reasonably worried about was how am I going to make payroll on Monday right that like that was a common uh thing that people were concerned about specifically the the the commercial business customers that were at Silicon Valley Bank um and and when you think about that it is I have a certain amount of savings on my balance sheet you know think about is my Bitcoin in treasury well if that is not there but in this case it’s dollars if that’s not there how do I pay the people that I need to pay but the bank is also and the fragility of the financial system is also a risk from a rails perspective because it’s also how businesses accept payment so the first order problem might be okay I’ve got an existing level of savings and I can’t use that to pay the people or other inputs that I need to fulfill and deliver the service that I’m offering as a business but then the next immediate next consequences well I’m also now suddenly cut off from my customers so I can’t replenish my savings and both of those are equal problems at the end of the day and that the right way or at least I think a a credible way for a business owner to be thinking about bitcoin’s payment is if you’ve recognized and really we’re marketing this tool first to bitcoin we’re building it for people that actually want the Bitcoin um but if you first started to understand why Bitcoin storees value the importance of its fixed Supply then it becomes very logical that if you that you also recognize this fragility of the Legacy system and that like somewhere in the US a bank is in the process of failing is that your bank you don’t know now you might have a couple banks for that reason but there’s a series of bank failures happen because the system is insolvent and functionally every bank is over leverage if they if they didn’t print money they’re going to print money to quote Shore up the banks that that has the consequence of causing the currency to fail over time and if you’ve recognized all that or at least are on that path where you first clicked why Bitcoin effectively stores value then you start to look at Bitcoin and its rails as a redundant rail to the Legacy system and if that currency of the Legacy system is a risk then the rails of that system are a risk and then you start to start seeing Bitcoin payments and the rails as a way to drisk your business in the future of your business because just because you’ve invested in your business and reducing the uncertainty to have that ability to be paid doesn’t mean that you still can’t be connected to the Fiat rails and and then the point that you made I think is so preent it’s one if you haven’t done that before if you wait to the actual flood if you wait to the point that your bank has failed you’re you’re already lost you’ve waited too long doesn’t mean that you can’t come back from it but you you will have endured a lot more pain than had you been set up previously and trained your customers that hey this is available and if you want to pay me you can pay me with this and and then to to you know appreciate in that process that you actually got to invest in the infrastructure first you need to do that before you absolutely have to have it it is an actual investment in your business there might be other benefits like reducing costs and other things but it’s an investment in your business to create a redundant Rail and if you haven’t ever sent a Bitcoin transaction or you haven’t you know actually received a Bitcoin coin transaction if you were scrambling because you have to do something rather than preparedness and then see the benefits that come from your business that if you’ve seen the benefits that have come to you as an individual by holding Bitcoin you start to translate to holding Bitcoin in your treasury as a business rather than having you know the Fiat melting Ice Cube the same exact thing happens once you turn on the light to start to accept Bitcoin as payment you go through the same learning process actually using the tools and now you have another tool in the war chest you know to be able to have that redundant rail that you know I like to think about you know there’s a central point of failure in the US system so all the banks are fragile but that New York fed is a central point of failure you think about the construction of the Bitcoin Network all these nodes you can have multiple nodes multiple service providers such that one thing goes down another one comes up and you’re not cut off that that that that the Bitcoin rails are so hyper redundant that it’s that it’s far more resilient as a system and that more business owners and and and I’m hearing this is consistent feedback from the business businesses that were on boarding that as soon as they start to think about it as I’m making this investment in my business to protect it reduce uncertainty reduce a risk and then start to observe on the other side the value that it unlocks by being able to attract Bitcoin holders and incorporating in a broader strategy it’s those things together that really that you know make this this work an Aggregate and so part of what we’re doing is building the tools but the other side is going out there talking to businesses and helping them understand the importance of it and that that we think we’re contributing to the entire ecosystem uh that we’re not here to compete with other companies working on Payment Solutions that are each tailored to different type of markets is to kind of get behind that wave to help usher in the next order of magnitude order of magnitude 10x 100x thousand X number of businesses that start to just say that I’m I’m going to invest in this infrastructure and you can now pay me in Bitcoin and I’d actually prefer that if you’re willing to and um I guess it’s important just for listeners to understand that it’s kind of like a bring your own wallet solution as well because you can hook up different things to the you know to zap right and it’s kind of helping you glue those aspects together right it’s not that the merchant is having to kind of use a zap right wallet or something like this it’s more like they hook up their L&D or their you know and there’s Integrations as well from a fe outside yeah absolutely yeah so you you know connect a Bitcoin wallet you connect a lightning node you can connect an L&D node you can connect a strike account or an ibex account uh so you know kind of ideally trying to meet the customers where they are whether that is custodial on their side or non-custodial and then also connecting their Fiat rail so if they have a square merchant account for Fiat payments that can connect that into zap right or a stripe account that can connect that into zap right you know consequentially we don’t ever touch money um and so um you know in that world again it’s not just just because we don’t want to touch money and we don’t want to be a money transmitter we’re certainly not a payment processor it’s that we’re providing these rails of access where when somebody comes to your business checkout and they pay that it goes straight to them it doesn’t first come to our entity and then we withdraw it to your wallet in that world we actually simplify our business by not having to like if you think about somebody like strike or someone like unchain or someone like River or Swan their you know their Core Business you know in terms of they have a service where they help people buy and sell But ultimately on the underlying Bitcoin side it’s I’ve got to secure this Bitcoin and I need to help it come in and go out and and and the most consequential spending is how it goes out in terms of security well if we can remove that from our business and start to become compliments to all those companies then we can just focus all of our energy on the payment experience focus on the next Commerce platform to integrate it to improving the feature set around payments specifically the payments enablement in in zap right so it is a it is a a good point to say you bring your wallet so you you have to have some way to receive Bitcoin that is compatiable but anybody can pay it if somebody has a lightning you know uh connection to zap right anybody coming with a lightning wallet can pay that and that’s the beauty of Bitcoin because it is interoperable that uh all of these companies that are building whether it’s non-custodial uh nodes or you know custodial Wallace they all speak the same language so we can operate in this world where we can focus on the the actual payments experience to check out kind of what the payer is experiencing on their site uh as well as how the individual is receiving it just you know essentially saying hey if you already accept Bitcoin in terms of like that it’s real and there’s a 21 million and you’re not accepting as your business but you get why it exists and why it’s important you have already figured out how you’re going to hold your Bitcoin in order to receive Bitcoin as payment we shouldn’t force you to change how you’ve already decided so if you’re a cold card user awesome if you like treas are awesome if your leries are great uh if you like Unchained awesome you know but then again if you’re not ready for that step and It Strike connect a strike account and we hope to connect uh you know all the other platforms as well we’ve got strike uh Ibex um we’re working on a few others right now we hope to get River and cash app talking to to folks there but the idea being that uh you connect your method of payment and anybody can pay it because Bitcoin is interoperable they just have to be sending from a Bitcoin wallet or from a lightning support all and I noticed interestingly there was a recent blog post you guys had about the Mutiny connection now listeners I had an episode with Ben Carman sort of recently as well from the team at Mutiny but uh that one looks pretty interesting as well because it looks like um as I’m just looking at the article uh basically Mutiny wallet has a feature where if you buy Mutiny plus you can get a you can basically hook it to zaap right and set up your Mutiny lightning address and then so that might be a really easy way you know let’s say you’re a listener and you’re like how do I help onard my local Merchants maybe Mutiny if it’s just kind of like one man banned one guy with his app kind of thing maybe Mutiny might be an easy one there because it’s just kind of the app you and I don’t even it doesn’t necessarily have to be one man Bann it’s like hey if there’s say it’s a it’s a business owner and he has a complicated business and he wants to receive Bitcoin payments non-custodial right he could create a mutiny wallet and I believe my my understand is you got to um upgrade to mutin Mutiny plus and have access to a federation and then you basically have a um uh aedt uh essentially then then you have a mutiny lightning address you just take that lightning address pop it right into Unchained you know acknowledge terms of service and go and then you connect that Mutiny wallet to a zap right payment link a Zite invoice if you have a woocommerce store and so it’s now any any Mutiny user that wants to receive their business Bitcoin payments to that wallet can then do that and uh and that’s the beauty of it because if you even think about that think about the Mutiny guys you know awesome Team Awesome W working on a wallet wallet wallet if I also had to think about building the wallet as well as the Commerce solution I’m going to be worse at both those things but Mutiny can focus on the wallet we can connect zap right to Mutiny and then anybody who otherwise chooses to use the Mutiny wallet has these Commerce Solutions at the ready for them and if you think about if you had to do all those things at once Not only would you move a lot slower and be able to to ship you know a lot less but whatever it is your building is actually going to be worse because you’re having to you know um marry two skill sets with limited resources yeah so let me just compare I’ll I’ll try to give a bit of context for listeners as well because maybe you’re new or maybe you’re not familiar as much with kind of the intricacies historically if I wanted to go teach somebody to be a Bitcoin Merchant I might have had to sort of Coach them through how to set up a BTC pay you might have had to set them up how to like do their own lightninging node and their own channels and then kind of receive sat like configure the BTC pay receive STS into that then send that out into an exchange and sell it there now now to be clear BTC pay also have some Integrations as well so it’s kind of every all the apps are kind of getting easier over time uh but I think the different the ecosystem and the different options that are available now as an example with zap ride and Mutiny or zap ride and various other things that you can connect to it it just makes it easier and part of this I see it as it’s a bit of a Race Against Time right like we’re trying to help onboard more people to be able to use Bitcoin um so that they can adopt Bitcoin and so if we can make it easier for them to on board you know that’s just all the better for everyone um and so I think kind of uh well like VJ has said as well um it’s kind of like the Uber strategy we need to kind of get enough people comfortable with Bitcoin using Bitcoin that it just becomes too politically untenable to really ban the thing and stop it that way now I don’t think I don’t think an outright ban is coming I think it’s more like regulation might come that makes it difficult to sort of have the freedom vision of Bitcoin right and maybe that’s one criticism people have they have this idea of like oh maybe you bitcoiners you’re gonna get your ngu but we’re not going to be free anyway like because it’ll all be in these kind of you know custodial Black Rock platforms or whatever uh I’m curious if you have any thoughts on that yeah I I think that that’s where um common sense and like you can’t take you can’t take the black pill you know like uh the common sense Freedom loving American in the spirit of you know thinking about an alien a rights you know in the context of you know can I sell my beef for Bitcoin and can I hold that money myself like if somebody tells me no then they have gone to such an absurdity that there are enough Common Sense people that love freedom that will reject that and that if you add enough of those people up there’s there’s no way to functionally stop that and that’s not to say that they can’t stop an individual or two but that the absolute value and the absolute necessity of it and like how ridiculous and absurd it is like think about like we onboarded Casey cattle who’s uh a ranch in Kansas City and they’re literally selling beef directly for Bitcoin and if you start to think about what a Bitcoin transaction is and what a private key is and what’s happening in that it’s like I’m you’re I have the ability to accept data and then have another piece of data a private key that’s securing a you know an amount of Bitcoin uh and I’m willing to take that in return for a piece of stake that I’ve you know spent years perfecting a craft around that is ultimately what’s happening I’m I’m literally taking some data in return for a cow that’s refined into cuts of beef right and that there is some cognitive dissonance for certain people where I like I do think there’s a quantity of it but then when people look at it and they’re like okay wait you know even if somebody doesn’t get it they’re like that Rancher is taking bitcoin’s payment my doctor in Austin takes bitcoin’s payment and it and it’s difficult to criminalize people that look like that you know where it’s like well it’s just a doct doctor taking payments it’s just a dentist taking payments it’s just a Rancher taking payments you stacking up of that you make those people that are otherwise trying to restrict and constrain your freedoms more ridiculous you know and realistically we could do the same thing I think it’s it’s ridiculous when somebody when the SEC chairman gets on the stage you know on CNBC on his soap box and says that bitcoin’s functioning for criminals and I don’t know why these guys don’t say hey are you calling Paul tutor Jones a criminal are you calling Bill Miller a criminal those other people that we have on the show like there’s there’s there’s ways to turn the you know kind of Bitcoin is a store of value on its same head but also when you start bringing into the mix doctors and ranchers Main Street people that are that are accepting Bitcoin as payment you you can use those as tools as examples to say uh Elizabeth Warren do you do you hate the Rancher do you think that the Rancher that literally produces the food that you eat is not capable of making the decisions on his own and that that somehow this is supporting terrorism no you’re the one that’s being ridiculous and so the more people sheer volume they doing it but also just the nature of it like there’s just all these good nature people that have been so fed up about having their money destroyed that they’re going to take actions that are necessary to ensure you know their future prosperity and survival and that you know some of those instances that then can be turned around to to to be used to demonstrate just how obscene certain other actions are that like those like we will win you know when it comes to that that that uh that we’re not just going to say oh and like everyone’s just going to use you know custodial you know and then they’re going to figure out how to regulate it away it’s like no this this thing Bitcoin is seeping into every nook and cranny in the world it only works because in my mind it’s both everywhere and nowhere all at once uh essentially nodes are ephemeral you can turn shut off you could leave your node behind as long you know private keys are permanent nodes are ephemeral you can light up another node somewhere else and uh and that you know if they couldn’t you know make go go away or if they couldn’t you know stop booze from going away in prohibition if you start to understand the way that Bitcoin works and human nature like we are going to find a way to use Bitcoin custodial noncy that is in whether somebody pronounces it it is an inalienable right it is common sense and it’s also by necessity to do that because uh as has been demonstrated uh financial institution failing after financial institution that uh the best way to protect that is on your own and to take agency and accountability so it’s just it’s just like it’s it’s a gravitational force doesn’t matter what regulation happen and whatnot the regulations will ultimately map to it because it’s a force that can’t be stopped fantastic uh and lastly Let’s uh chat a little bit I got the chance to uh finally get my iners my real life copy of gradually then suddenly so uh thank you for that uh I and in fact I bought that on zap ride as well so I paid with lightning um for that I you know generally I try to earn and spend with Bitcoin and lightning wherever possible um and uh yeah just give us an update on the book uh and how things are going on the book side yeah it’s going well I’ve been having fun uh it was great to finally get it out there in December uh I’m sorry I sent the book to Stefan and then it routed back to me uh like three months later but but just in time or maybe two months later but just in time for bit block boom and then uh coincidentally or not coincidentally but uh serendipitously I had write written a note to Stefan but forgotten to actually sign it so I was then able to to sign it and personally deliver it otherwise I’d just have to you know give him another book but uh but no it’s been going well I didn’t have a lot of expectations in it was an important project for me to um kind of memorialize or have an artifact that I could physically hand to someone I think that um you know one of the reasons why I I wrote it was because so many people that I had come across and just day-to-day life going to meetups being around the Bitcoin circuit had mentioned to me how valuable it was to them to working through challenging um Frameworks to think about Bitcoin and so that then kind of inspired me to to turn it into a physical book because I think there certain people that if you send them a link on the internet they’ll read it uh the experience of reading something physical is actually better than being on screen and that I’ll be able to reach more people and that um one of the things that I try to to to do in my writing historically that’s then been Incorporated in the book is kind of break up Bitcoin into these uh not necessarily bites size but but kind of individual themes individual Frameworks helping them really structure the book into to three different parts one kind of the most fundamental rabbit hole is bottomup view of Bitcoin as money but then another on the common misconceptions that I think are particularly helpful to people to understand why it’s not too valuable or why it’s not too slow or why it’s not for criminals why it can’t be banned um why it doesn’t waste energy and then also helping them understand the problem I think you know kind of historically I my career came from the Legacy financial industry I I think that I have not necessarily unique but I have uh a well-informed opinion to be able to relate ideas about the Legacy banking system to bitcoin and often times people think about Bitcoin is a solution in search of a problem uh but it’s because they don’t understand the problem so uh you know the last third of the book is based on really understanding why everyone’s going to have or you know why the fed’s always going to have to print money um and uh and why that’s not a possibility why it’s a certainty why that actually caused the underlying economic structure to erode and functioning why the currency ultimately fails and so kind of pairing all those together and you know I didn’t really have a lot of expectations in terms of how many books I would sell I’ve sold more books than I thought I would um I currently have it exclusively on safe’s website that you know realistically probably limits the the reach from Amazon but I’m doing it for uh principled reasons that I think that you know if the if the book is good and people find Value from it then they will they will either gift it or tell their friends where to find it and uh that everyone who comes through can pay in Bitcoin and that was important to me too that um there is some cognitive dissonance to to recognize it’s like you’ve never gone to a grocery store and had the opportunity to pay with the US Treasury or um you know uh an Apple stock or micr strategy stock but here when you’re buying this book even if you don’t want to pay in Bitcoin because you can pay in fee out because the book is intended to help people who don’t understand Bitcoin to to start to understand it and they might not have it or know how to send Bitcoin but it’s sitting right there saying you know you can pay me in Bitcoin and that was important so um yeah I’ve been having fun being on the road going to events signing books for people um it’s been really personally rewarding to get to get the feedback from people that hadn’t yet been into Bitcoin like you know I’ve had stories of people that or maybe were but didn’t understand it didn’t didn’t you know take the red pill or the orange pill and kind of came back to it because of the book hadn’t read any of my prior writing figured it out and now they’re in the process of getting their businesses set up to accept Bitcoin as payment and I think that that has to be The Logical order people have to first understand Bitcoin and then they start accepting his payment you know at a future date when you know the the hyperinflation really takes off like everyone’s just going to rush out the door at once and start having to demand payment for necessity but those people that are um that are forward about their actions and take agency they they first need to understand it that’s what the book is meant to do to really deep and Harden uh I view it I or I hope that it serves as a perfect compliment to things like the Bitcoin standard as well as vj’s bullish case for Bitcoin I kind of see it as like in on my journey uh the bullish case or bullish case for Bitcoin wasn’t yet out uh but the Bitcoin standard was I’d met safe uh a few years before he helped me understand what money was before starting that book and then he was you know shared an early draft of that that unlocked a lot of things for me I still had to reason through things and so I view I view my book as a hyper logically ordered framework for people who need that or kind of whose Minds might work similar to my own because Bitcoin click for me made sense I I got it all from you know combination of resource one of them being the Bitcoin Center but then trying to enumerate the things that I consistently had to work through in my mind to consistently get back at the conclusion that Bitcoin was money and so it was that and then mastering Bitcoin I try to you know kind of provide what I think is a place in between those two books to share enough about the technical architecture of Bitcoin to understand how it works as well as the why of why why sound money is important why Bitcoin shares the properties of things that have been historically sound money and how it will replace all their currencies and so um yeah been have been having fun out there um you know talking to people that bought the book selling it to people who haven’t and figure out figuring out ways to get it into more people’s hands yeah I think it’s a I think it’s a it’s a great series and uh you know I remember it when you were writing the blog series over at un um and uh yeah hope hopefully more people get value out of it um so let’s finish up here so remember it’s uh zaap right.com z a p r i t um and uh you said the safe house as well that’s uh yeah the safe house we’ll put the links all in the show notes but I guess uh yeah I guess we’ll just leave that with listeners that uh you know it’s time potentially as you said maybe this is the beginning of the then they fight fight us stage um but it’s also time to start pushing back and start uh getting more people on our side so uh let’s leave it there Parker thanks for joining me today hey thanks for having me back Onan always great to catch up I hope you enjoyed the chat make sure to share this episode and press like and give us a thumbs up if you enjoyed this episode thanks and I’ll see you in the citadels

Official Podcast Episode: https://www.stephanlivera.com/570
Parker Lewis of Zaprite rejoins me on the show to discuss recent updates in the space and what’s happening with Zaprite and merchant adoption.

– “Then they fight you” ?
– Chilling Effect
– Zaprite
– Getting Bitcoin Payment Rails Ready
– Gradually, Then Suddenly
– Why hope should not be lost

TImestamp:
00:00 – Introduction
01:07 – Recent Arrests and ‘Money Transmission’
11:59 – Creating Law via Enforcement Actions
16:14 – Advocacy and Education at the State Level
23:30 – Coinkite.com
25:30 – (cont.) Advocacy and Education at the State Level
31:58 – Advocacy and Strategic Approaches
35:18 – The Chilling Effect and Future of Bitcoin
36:46 – Continuing to Build and Defend Bitcoin
39:34 – Zaprite
43:41 – Swan.com
44:44 – Mempool.space
47:02 – Understanding the Problems with the Legacy Banking System
01:06:19 – ‘Gradually Then Suddenly’
01:13:00 – Pushing Back Against Regulations

Links:

– X: @parkeralewis : https://twitter.com/parkeralewis
– Site: Zaprite.com : https://zaprite.com/
– Get Parker’s Book: thesifhouse.com : https://thesaifhouse.com/

Sponsors:

– Swan.com (code LIVERA): http://swan.com/livera
– CoinKite.com (code LIVERA) : http://coinkite.com/
– Mempool.space : https://mempool.space/

Stephan Livera links:

– Follow me on X: @stephanlivera :https://twitter.com/stephanlivera
– Subscribe to the podcast : https://plinkhq.com/i/1415720320
– Subscribe to Substack : https://stephanlivera.substack.com/